DonAndersen Posted October 8, 2009 Share Posted October 8, 2009 Folks, The fair trade discussion had several references to overpaid or underpaid tiers. Did a tad of looking @ CDN wages for 2009 and found this table expressed in $/hour Males $23.84 Females $20.18 All Employees $23.59 Basic assumptions are: 1} wages are typically 60% of a operations total budget. 2] the tier does 20 flies/hour 3] markup @ the retail level is 50% Wage - $ 23.59 Total cost of operation - $ 39.317/hour - this includes materials, work area, employee cost, light, heat et al. Flies produced / hour = 20 Cost/fly = $ 1.957 Cost @ retail level $2.949 And you guys want 'em for a buck - get real. Some 50 years ago when I started to tie flies, a single Joe's Hopper or Gray Bivisible was $0.25. My Dad made $1.25/hour. My weekly allowance was $0.25. You got 5 flies/hour worked. Now the average is $23.59/hour. Hell, you you guys should be paying $23.59/5 flies = $ 4.72/fly. Quit sniveling! Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Waugh Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 You the man, Don!! Finally some Solidarity with the Kenyan ladies. Rocky Mountain House (and Black Diamond) rules!!!!! Jerry Doak charges five bucks for his Bombers and Black Bear's because he "TIES LOCALLY". And shuts his shop down on Sunday, I should add, to observe the Lord's Day. I wanted to get that in to make sure nobody misinterpreted than I was picking on him. Come on boys, tell us all how those NIKE piece work slaves are different than the Obama lasses in Nairobi. It's gonna be quite a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acurrie Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Doesn't it Depend on the Fly? I won't pay $3.00 for a parachute adams, but i'll pay $5.00 for some nicely tied intruders or larger streamers. BTW, Has Wholesale dropped the prices of the flies they currently have to $10.00/ dozen to get rid of existing stock yet? I've been told they are going to start carrying quality flies after the others are sold (black's.. or something like that Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverDoctor Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Very well said Don, It amazes me that guys will drop thousands for a rod and other pricey equipment then quibble over the more important fly at the end of their line tied by a local craftsman who understands the provinces insect life and trout. They complain that we tiers should starve for a living and be squeezed out of the market while at the same time wanting to make good money in their own chosen careers. Shame on you folks for not supporting CANADIAN products, this why I dropped tying local patterns for shops. The loss of people like Don and his patterns has made the market poorer indeed. Lornce Lisowksi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avalanche Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 BTW, Has Wholesale dropped the prices of the flies they currently have to $10.00/ dozen to get rid of existing stock yet? Drew Yes...$9.98 to be exact. I relieved them of a few dozen about a week ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricinus Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I bought some flies from American tyers-including AK Best- that cost 2.50to3.00/fly. I went American because I couldn't find any Canadian commercial tyers. There is no comparison in the quality of the flies versus the imports. BWOs look like BWOs not what somebody in Africa thinks they look like The quality of workmanship is no comparison The quality of materials is no comparison The durability is no comparison Plus I now have excellent examples to compare my own ties to. Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydropsyche Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Thanks for doing the math, Don. I thought $5/fly was break even. If I ever did custom ties, that would be my price but then again, I would only tie what you couldn't buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythagoras Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Good point Don. I always bought my salmon flys from Warren Duncan's shop in Saint John and can appreciate the work involved. On the other hand those people in Africa need income too. So do all the middle men between here and there. I spent, what I thought, was a pretty penny on flys this spring (thread around here somewhere). In the end they were lost, or otherwise destroyed at about the same speed as the $10/Doz. Sure the local guy has a place. Sure supporting local is good...but...the buck a fly is pretty attractive too. It gives that person in some 3rd world place a job too. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadensis Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Oh cry me a river. If you don't make enough tying flies then do something else where you think you are being renumerated sufficiently. From what I understand some of the local (Calgary) commercial tiers cannot fill all of their orders.. And for the record I fill the voids in my box that I don't tie myself with a mix of local and import ties.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rundleff Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I bought some flies from American tyers-including AK Best- that cost 2.50to3.00/fly. I went American because I couldn't find any Canadian commercial tyers. There are a few Canadians who tie on a commercial scale, but a lot tie for shops and don't advertise. Guys like Jeremy Davis, Al Grombacher, Jamie Webb, Damian Welsh, Darren MacEachern, Mac Warner, Lornce Lisowksi all do or have at some point tied on a commercial scale. You see it more with the Atlantic Salmon flies than the western ones. I'm sure if you were to contact any of these guys, they could give you a fair price and an above average quality fly. Take a look at the Jstockard fly market, it's all "local" joes who tie and get a bit of cash for it. piscator flies is one site I've used who tied a few custom patterns for me. They are around, they are just a little more difficult to find I suppose. These guys likely don't make a living off their flies, but supplement it. As I understand it, another reason that you don't see much in the way of local tiers is that many were unable to keep up with demand, or were simply unreliable with supply (as they had other jobs and such) and so the demand was made up from off shore. As I understand it, Africa is no longer the monopoly of bulk flies as China and Philippine also produce large numbers with Highland Flies, Raineys, Idlwylde and Montana FC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupremeLeader Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Do you know what commercial tying does to your brain........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricinus Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 There are a few Canadians who tie on a commercial scale, but a lot tie for shops and don't advertise. Guys like Jeremy Davis, Al Grombacher, Jamie Webb, Damian Welsh, Darren MacEachern, Mac Warner, Lornce Lisowksi all do or have at some point tied on a commercial scale. You see it more with the Atlantic Salmon flies than the western ones. I'm sure if you were to contact any of these guys, they could give you a fair price and an above average quality fly. Take a look at the Jstockard fly market, it's all "local" joes who tie and get a bit of cash for it. piscator flies is one site I've used who tied a few custom patterns for me. They are around, they are just a little more difficult to find I suppose. These guys likely don't make a living off their flies, but supplement it. As I understand it, another reason that you don't see much in the way of local tiers is that many were unable to keep up with demand, or were simply unreliable with supply (as they had other jobs and such) and so the demand was made up from off shore. As I understand it, Africa is no longer the monopoly of bulk flies as China and Philippine also produce large numbers with Highland Flies, Raineys, Idlwylde and Montana FC. I have used JStockard's tyers, good stuff and I even received a few extras to try out on our "northern" steams. Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zed Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Folks, The fair trade discussion had several references to overpaid or underpaid tiers. Did a tad of looking @ CDN wages for 2009 and found this table expressed in $/hour Males $23.84 Females $20.18 All Employees $23.59 Basic assumptions are: 1} wages are typically 60% of a operations total budget. 2] the tier does 20 flies/hour 3] markup @ the retail level is 50% Wage - $ 23.59 Total cost of operation - $ 39.317/hour - this includes materials, work area, employee cost, light, heat et al. Flies produced / hour = 20 Cost/fly = $ 1.957 Cost @ retail level $2.949 And you guys want 'em for a buck - get real. Some 50 years ago when I started to tie flies, a single Joe's Hopper or Gray Bivisible was $0.25. My Dad made $1.25/hour. My weekly allowance was $0.25. You got 5 flies/hour worked. Now the average is $23.59/hour. Hell, you you guys should be paying $23.59/5 flies = $ 4.72/fly. Quit sniveling! Don i buy my flies from a shop in bc for, you guessed it, one dollar a fly. they are good flies and the proprietor is happy to have my business. should i feel shame? - get real. should i make sure the guy/gal who tied my fly is making $23.59/hour even though I dont make $23.59 an hour? - get real. i'm sure my friend who is selling them to me is not losing money because he is not an idiot. i should stop buying my flies from him even though he is canadian like you and me because he may be employing africans? - get real. free enterprise is a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Frankly, I'm flabbergasted. Hell, you you guys should be paying $23.59/5 flies = $ 4.72/fly. No Don, we should pay whatever the market will bear, and we'll generally pay for the quality we desire. Want cheap flies, general rule-of-thumb pay $1.00. Want better, local tied flies, pay more. Am I missing something here in terms of basic economics? You generally get what you pay for, naturally with exceptions. I have paid $0.75, and as much as $3.00. Something wrong with the ability to choose, to shop around? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't snivel (a lot ) about fly prices. I say suck it up; if I am in the Crowsnest, and I'm out of a pattern I could have bought cheaper in Edmonton, I have no problem supporting Vic Bergman, no problem at all. You the man, Don!! Finally some Solidarity with the Kenyan ladies. Rocky Mountain House (and Black Diamond) rules!!!!! Jerry Doak charges five bucks for his Bombers and Black Bear's because he "TIES LOCALLY". And shuts his shop down on Sunday, I should add, to observe the Lord's Day. I wanted to get that in to make sure nobody misinterpreted than I was picking on him. Come on boys, tell us all how those NIKE piece work slaves are different than the Obama lasses in Nairobi. It's gonna be quite a stretch. Neil, ya make me grin. You've received several replies, some of them fairly thoughtful, but you keep repeating the same basic question. Let me ask you, what's the point of this soapbox you seem to be on? Really - I'm curious. What are you getting at? Were you just waiting for someone to reply like Don's reply. Are you leading a Facebook group or something for the cause of 3rd world fly tiers? Another example. People love - LOVE - slagging the old "trailer trash" Wal-Mart. But their sheer volume supports thousands of employed people - here in the "1st" world countries as well as 3rd world. And a study was published that us capitalist pigs here North America, guess what? Wal-Mart benefited low income people the most, because their dollar's purchasing power went 31% further shopping at Wal Mart because of low prices. And then naturally, the reply is "those low prices come at the expense and exploitation of the 3rd world peoples supporting our lifestyle". And yet, those 3rd world people have jobs manufacturing, which is actually a better alternative to real slavery. What do you want these people to do? Grow opium? Have women work in brothels? This is going to come as a stunning revelation to some, and I hate to be one to break the news, but the plain truth is that not every, single, maunfacturing job in the third world is sweat shop labor. There are countries with regulations. There are some factories that do look after their workers. There are some places in the world that don't resemble early industrial revolution working conditions, where children work 18 hours days inhaling coal dust. And clearly, there are places in the world that are abusive places to work, and do exploit people. You think me paying $5 per fly is going to stop the nonsense. How about I pay $1.25, and with the money I save, I can send the savings to that nobel prize winner that started the micro loan program to women (men too of course). And SLeader before you jump all over me, let me recongize your no brainer points: Here are your no brainers: 1) That anyone on this board doesn't have good enough heart to recognize that exploiting the poor is a bad thing, because you say, that's no good. Of course its not good! No one here explicitly wants to exploit disadvantaged, poor people. 2) That capitalism needs to be regulated, and that there are aspects of socialism that we have embraced. Of course - naturally. We're merely agreeing on facts here, no one on this board would be foolish enough to deny that Canada uses mixed economic approach, and we have received recognition of our sound, conservative, socialist banking industry. Bottom line is that far too many people live on less than $2 per day. Another no brainer - would who disagree with that? Want to know another hidden stat? That, according to the UN, the # of people living on less than $2 a day has decreased. The amount of people living in extreme poverty has decreased. Yeah, I know, no hero cookies or Nobel prizes yet for us gluttonous North Americans. Not yet (or ever). Not while there is so much work to do, and so many people to help. Our problem is our arrogance. We fail to recognize that progress is often slow, unrecognizable, and often goes unreported int the media. We expect - as if it could happen in such short a period of time - that us flawed human animals could somehow magically evolve out of hording (an evolutionary, necessary function since we started to walk erect), within a few generations, a few decades, that economic disparity and the attendent violence would just disappear (aside: a reason I always laugh at Star Trek when a few plot lines explain how man-kind eradicated poverty and disease and the need for money in 50 years, but that's quite a geek comment...) Anyways, that's quite enough from me. Feel free to paint me as the heartless, capitalist, lassez faire SOB Albertan redneck. But as far needing to see a priest to assuage my guilt about buying $1.25 African flies, well, lets just say I think there are worse sins I could confess too. Smitty P.S. SL, kudos for using public transit, walking, and growing your own food. Clearly you're making an effort, trying to set an example, and you constantly are mindful of the world's inequities. I tip my hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Do you know what commercial tying does to your brain........ Did it for 5+ years - brain is fried - that's why I can hold my own with folks on this board. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Did it for 5+ years - brain is fried - that's why I can hold my own with folks on this board. Don Well that also explains the bamboo obsession Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 flies are retarded expensive to buy for what your getting so TIE YOUR OWN. I must be a real cheap ass but i cant pay anything mre than $1/fly, it just doesnt seem worth it......so i dropped an exorbitant amount of money and i tie my own. At this point i think i am about $1/fly and the more i spin the lower that number goes. This being said if a buddy was going to pay me for my flies i would NOT sell them a $1/ The new "fly tier" mag has a great article about how fly shops are selling more materials during these slow economic times $1 goes WAY further in Kenya then i does in CANADA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted October 9, 2009 Author Share Posted October 9, 2009 Taco, Cane obsession started in late 50's. Plastic fishing poles and commercial tying happened about the same time. Maybe it was the Tupperware rods that did it not the tying. Whatever did it, it was a pleasure to playing on a level playing field with ya'. Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I grew up watching Star Trek. Don't worry, in just a few hundred years the world will leave its capitalist money grubbing aside and all will live for the betterment of themselves and others. The Vulcans teach us how. It will be utopia. Flies will be free. Free I tell you! And engineers like me will get to travel all over the universe meeting hot green women. And can fly fish with free flies on the holodeck. We only have to wait a few short hundred years. Promise. But we will turn a blind eye to the slave labor on the dilithium crystal planets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricinus Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Fishing flies to dilithium crystals--Engineers are weird Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtforward Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 And people wonder why unemployment is hitting 10 % in the US and coming to a neighbourhood near you. Of course all this free trade cheap foreign wage stuff goes into the tank when oil gets back up there in 175.00 to 200.00 a barrel; it's not a matter of if but when. The increase freight cost foregone may just be redirected into wages for jobs back in North America. Support your local economy..price be damned! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 you givin out money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsnest Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 If I had a choice (and I do) between supporting a tier from one of the richest countries in the world, or one from the poorest countries of the world, I choose (and do) the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisher26 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I am personally willing to pay about a dollar per fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SupremeLeader Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 If I had a choice (and I do) between supporting a tier from one of the richest countries in the world, or one from the poorest countries of the world, I choose (and do) the latter. So you support a business owner from one of the richest countries in the world who pays a tier, from one of poorer nations in the world a very tiny fraction of the price of the fly. Rich guy gets richer. Poor guy gets enough to feed his kids, and maybe buy a bike if he saves for a few years. And you get your flies for a good price. Good system...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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