Hawgstoppah

I've spent most of my life on the road watching people repeatedly do stupid, stupid things, and , sadly, watching some of them pay for it dearly.. Like speeding, not using siginals, cutting in front of big rigs, driving too fast on snow, and more. There on the exact same level as people who try to "beat a train" ... so... who's throwing the first stones? Think about that next time you buckle up.... Oh ... right.. there's another stupid thing people forget or just don't give a crap about.

not exactly true there wolf. a 7.9 pound rainbow from a lake might be as little as 25 inches (we got a 8+ pounder from palmer ranch very recently that was 25 inches)... and on the flipside...a 29 inch rainbow I got in the bow would MAYBE have been 7/8 pounds, if lucky. So there's a lot of variables. He didn't state wether it was a lake fish or a stream fish.. Ive seen 30 inch fish from the bow that wouldn't go over 8lbs too, some of those... snakey browns... I carried a scale for quite some time, weighed a lot of fish in my net on the Bow... most people calling the average bow river fish 4 and 5 pound fish have no clue. A 20 incher in the bow is approx 2 to 2.5 lbs. Most people call em 4 or 5.. LOL.. A normally shaped 25 incher on the bow is roughly 4 to 5 pounds... that's it! People call those things 10's!!! Must be the same people saying their 18 inchers are 23's and 24's

LOL Ray. Yep.... if your using the "official FFC tape measure" used to measure most 28's Ive seen on this site, then hell yeah it is!! If your realistic it was about 23-24 inches

Nice browns, welcome to the site!

Ya. Europeans have no idea what inches are and so when I tell them they broke 50cm, theyre excited. 50cm sounds better than 20in

Looks like now we're starting to see the bigger picture. The area needs complete rehabilitation... including from fisherman, for a few years. Yes it's hard to say "let's give it up for a while" but ya know what? I'd like to take my kids there someday, and have fish to catch. There's gotta be some sort of balance. They close streams (emergency closures) in extreme heat for the sake of the fish. Maybe, just maybe, the fish need to be protected from overfishing too... plus quads, random camping, and ALL activity that is proving (at least in my eyes) detrimental to the well being of the fish populations in those (and I am sure other) alberta streams. good discussion on this thread so far.

I scratched marks into my net at 20 inches , 25 inches, 30 inches, and 35 inches. works pretty good. I also put 50cm, 60cm, 70cm, 80cm, and 89.5 cm (35 inch). No doubts about a fish's size, can be measured while releasing or while in the net. under 20 inches.... I dont usuallt measure those but if a guy needed to you could do so by knowing how far 20 inches really is.

cool stuff. great pics. I LOVE the shot of the DHC2 Beaver with the canoes on the 'toons. classic!

right on.

Thanks Harps. My letter writing starts now. Should have started this years + years ago (on my part). I guess I just didn't see the complete desturction going on till I woke up this year. It's ten times worse than just 2 yrs ago.

I used to tell clients back when I ran my own company. If they brought weed to the river... no problem it's up to them. If they brought a ton of booze and / or were drunk from the night before when I picked them up, the day was over. I'd rather run into someone who's high than someone who's drunk anyday. Im not saying I support either side here, just stating the facts. bhurt has some very, very valid points. why is it legal to smoke, drink coffee, drink alchohol ?? (all things your "ingesting" which are harmfull to you). Especially alchohol, becuase not only are you hurting yourslef, but your often hurting others too. Now. Im not saying Im against anything either way... people are free to make their own choices, but I also think people should have the right to not be affected by others bad choices too.

awesome pics, great places. reminds me of a time when me and 3 buddies hiked to a high lake in K country only to have it start snowing less than a half hour later and we had 4 very steep rock scrambles to get down ... scary day. Looks like your hike out may have been a little bit... scary..

I'm not sure if "Korban" still hangs around the fly fishing boards, but he used to (maybe still does) run alpine tile. He was amazing... I saw a lot of his work.

your not understanding the big picture cuttbow. even fishing with no one around THERE ARE NO FISH. ATV's are ruining the SPAWNING GROUNDS for the ENTIRE system! no spawn = no fish no matter where you are in relation to people, that's the MOST concerning issue here!

Point #1. Drive by racehorse + dutch creek campground most of this summer they're nearly empty. Drive 3km up the road and there's 40 or 50 RV's camped within that 3KM. It's not the campgrounds or the capacity of them, though if we can get a random camping ban yes, indeed there would have to be some increased capacity put in. Point #2. If C&R mortality IS having an impact... I agree... we should put down the rods and leave the area alone for 5 years (as my original post stated). I honestly dont think C&R mort is having a huge impact. Creeks with no one around for miles now, have no fish. Even little know less pressured streams anywhere in the catsle / oldman drainage are suffering, from lack of suitable spawning habitat. Go have a look 2km east of the FTR on hwy 532 (towards bear pond and the pass). See that meadow? Ruined. Used to be important spawning grounds for L River cutts.

Maybe if I lug my 2000lb out of tune piano down to Lee Creek my playing will sound better! Good luck on the harmonica, always thought that would be a cool instrument to learn, but if I ever take the time n patience to learn a new one it would be the bagpipes for sure.

rickr (and others) the 5 year ban on fishing etc was MY opinion of what should be done. any special interest group formed to help stop this plague of destruction would be better than none, regardless if our ideas differ on exactly HOW to do it. All I know is that something needs to be done and Im willing to put my heart into doing something... instead of just bitching about it on bulletin boards. The time for us all to act is now. I dont know how we go about it... I aint a politician... Im a simple guy that sees MY right to fish in an unspoiled wilderness being ruined, and along with that I see a huge, HUGE decrease in fish numbers as well.

all that's done is move the boneheads into equally fragile and yet unprotected areas. There needs to be a ban on the activity, not a move to another unruined area...

maybe you need to spend more time actually out there, and see what's really going on... instead of making people who actually see whats happenening and give a damn about it have to listen to your slander. We need to all be on the same page. There isnt time for your group of slowpokes anymore. The time is now. Who's willing to start some sort of not for profit group to save these areas... and willing to do what it really will take.. (yes if that includes not guiding there, not fishing there, not using OHV's there, etc). I am on board. who else?

sweet shots. that's a purty lil' creek that's for sure!

I should state that my thoughts and sentiments from my original post go out to ALL of alberta's designated "crown land" which is getting quadded and camped to death (this includes west of rocky mtn house, etc etc). At the very least we need a complete ban on all off roading (including driving RV's to random sites) and even up to including driving any vehicle off a road to access fishing. The area is too fragile to handle this any longer. We're destroying our kids future fisheries. The time is now. Anyone know who I can contact to set up a non profit org. in alberta?

I have alluded to my displeasure of the degradation of the fishing experience in the area in a few other posts but maybe it's about time to get this out in the open. As a fishing guide (just one of hundreds who guide these waters) I am disgusted by the complete gong show that occurs in some of alberta's most wonderfull areas. Castle, Livingstone, Oldman, Racehorse, Carbondale... and many many more. You cant even drive out there and find a spot anywhere without a quad or random camp set up all summer. I mean you cant even drive half a KM with no one there. things affecting the fishing -quads destroying spawning habitat, bankside habitat + vegitation (where do you think the bugs that feed fish come from?) -overfishing (even catch and release has mort rates) -illegal harvest (how many camps have you walked through in the evening only to find them frying up a fish on the livingstone or other C&R stream?) -litter from random camps and quad camps I propose a COMPLETE CLOSURE of the area for 5 years, after which - No random camping (not even for fisherman) - No off roading (NOT even to go fishing... stay on the actual road, park on the side) - No quads - Complete C&R on all streams everywhere within the Oldman drainage and Castle drainage. Who's sick and tired of all the crap going on out there and wants to do something? It's time. If we all band together and take charge, maybe we can make a difference. Feel free to add your comments about what can / needs to be done out there but keep in mind... these streams need it NOW... there dying right in front of our eyes.

in fact wolfie, that flood should have made things a lot better. In 1995 there was a huge flood down south as well, and by 1998-1999-2000 the fishing was tremendous again, better than pre flood dare I say. This 2005 flood should have cleared out the mud from spawning beds and replaced it with prime gravel, again making it easy for a healthy recovery of fish within the 3-5 year mark from the flood. This has not happened... Conditions should have been better for the fish, but the quads have ruined it in such a short time... it was decent in 2005 and 2006, worse in 2007, bad in 2008, and barely worth guiding on in 2009. The only stream with good populations of fish left is one that doesn't get quaded over endlessly... the Crownest river.

Guides protect and love their streams and educate guests on the fragility of the fish and environment. Do they have an impact just by bringing a few people / year? sure... but not as much as the literally THOUSANDS of quads / and THOUSANDS of redneck hillbilly random camping and all the associated fish killing ... I used to go out there all the time ten, even twenty years ago. There was people fishing then... catch and kill was even allowed. fishing was still good. In the whole area maybe 10-15 campers... maybe one with atv's. Now go drive up the oldman road in aug.... drive by the livingstone in aug... drive by the castle / w castle / south castle in aug... drive by carbondale in aug... THOUSANDS... and the ground is ruined... mud where there used to be reeds and a tiny gravel stream... are guides doing this? I think not. PS: there are hundreds of guides who guide on those waters. Every shop in calgary advertises mountain wades. Every shop in fernie comes over here when their conditions suck. There are literally hundreds of guides on those waters. If you think they are having an impact ... then speak up! It's time for change.

Jeremie. I am on your side. Over the last 5 years the fishing in SW alberta HAS GONE to ****. People are now posting "oh what a great day we got 15 between 3 of us". That's total crap... sorry but that's a crap day... your bragging up a crap day!!! You used to be able to catch 50 / day EACH!!!..... EVEN IF YOU SUCKED at presentation, fly choice, casting, etc. Mort rates + random camping + ******* with quads ripping up spawning grounds + lack of enforcement anywhere up there, etc. If we all just sit on our asses in denial there will be no fish left in ten years. Those of you saying... "oh just suck it up bad days happen" havent fished the area for the last 20 years and watched it go to *hit. it's tanking. Right now. The last 2 years have been the worst ever. What's next year going to bring?