2015 Proposed Bow River Changes

[monger]

While it is true there are a variety of factors pressing on the brown trout population, the idea of decreasing any stress due to angling pressure at a highly stressful time point can only be a good thing. It is a short time window and hopefully a relatively short distance closure. As the river flushes and hopefully the bugs recover, perhaps we will see more browns and whitefish. Whitefish numbers are down and they provide a huge food resource with their young to the trout. Poor water flow management from the fish's point of view is certainly an issue.

[bcubed]

While it is true there are a variety of factors pressing on the brown trout population, the idea of decreasing any stress due to angling pressure at a highly stressful time point can only be a good thing.

 

How I love the voice of reason.

 

For those that want dam changes or habitat rehab, perhaps it's time that everyone starts pressuring TU to do something... They sure make a lot of money at their dinners, but do we ever see a true benefit back to the resource?

[reevesr1]

So only voices in agreement are reasonable? Quality debating technique!

[bcubed]

Makes it easy, doesn't it Rick?!

[Jayhad]

Well said Brent, seriously

 

Browns are much more susceptible to Sapro when stressed, stressed fish may forgo spawning, catching fish stresses them. How hard is it to understand if we give them a break they will benefit?

[toolman]

It can't do any harm to the fishery you say?

Well, consider that there will be more than double the fishing pressure on the trout populations downstream of the Deerfoot Extender Bridge.

And only one boat launch will be available near the city at Policemans, because nobody will be using the Glenmore or Fish Creek launches.

I bet it won't be long before the fish around Policemans and downstream too Cottonwood are going to look like the cutty's from the Livingstone at the end of every season...Scarr faced.

And Brent, you mentioned that we should all pressure TU to "Do Something"... What do you propose they do?

Re-stock the river?

 

Here is a link to a terrific article: http://afgmag.com/the-second-step-post-flood-bow-river-browns/

[monger]

But if I have to walk more than 93 yards from my car I'm just not going to go fishing after October 1. And besides, sometimes it's below 10C, and that just isn't pleasurable either. Hopefully there are lots of guys like me.

[bcubed]

How about use their resources to do some habitat rehab and back channel reestablishment, use their connections to pressure the government for more controls on the dam management, lock up more areas for access, provide bank rehabilitation ideas along with cows and fish, rather then using riprap. Use their resources to do research on the affects of angling over spawning fish, etc etc.

Shall I continue? TU does a lot of good, but if you compare what the Bow River chapter does, compared to some of the ones in Eastern Canada, or the states, it's a bit sad.

Since when do our trout downstream of Policemens look ANY different then Livingstone cutts? Since when is the pressure distributed 50/50 from glenmore to deerfoot (approximately 20km), compared to the ~50 km downstream of the bridge? That's laughable. If anything, it calls for more access down river, not keeping the limited amount available. If there are that many people fishing the city section during those two months, then even more of a case to close it

Anyone floating glenmore to 22 in October or November is likely doing so to chase the spawning brown trout anyway... Or they don't have enough background knowledge to know any better.

[DaveJensen]

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[flyfishy]

Not sure , if it's all true , but I like it!

Sucks not fishing the Lower bow Bow in The fall! Them are my best Dry's

I'v tied . Busy in September .... See ya there

 

Any one miss Flyfishy?

[DaveJensen]

As my article on the post-flood browns of the Bow R was referenced and that I was asked to join this conversation, I can share a bit. As in all things fishy, the discussion behind a one sentence reg change in a link has a generation of fisheries behind it.

My article as referenced is quite specific in focus: helping anglers find the browns post flood on the Bow R. It was never intended to discuss spawning closures nor fishing regulations. It did discuss the sapro issue because the decadent portion of any population is subject to many variables. There are a finite, specific number of decadent individuals in any population: more when conditions allow, fewer when they don’t. One variable or another will kill these individuals. In the case of the Bow R, it was almost irrelevant that the sapro issue came to pass because had sapro not taken a % of that decadent population, the floods the very next spring would have (and did). It’s that simple and both would have dealt with the exact same individuals of the population. Browns in floods of that scale simply don’t do well. Browns in prolonged high water also teeter on the precipice but many survive. Like any infection, disease, etc, Sapro is in the Bow system but you need a susceptible (old) population and environmental conditions to allow for its increase of occurrence. We may well see it resurface in 6 to 8 years as the present bumper crop of juveniles coming out of the flood grows old together - disease and infection runs amok amongst numbers of susceptible individuals.

In previous discussion about the spawning closure on the Bow, on this and other media where I shared perspective, I did so from the place of pointing out the many considerations that have to be made in regulations and management. There are the guiding principles for brown trout in Alberta that also have to fit into the guiding policies of fisheries management in Alberta, which have spin-off considerations into/from gov policy. There are then considerations of the stream specific angling regulation to both that water and the regulation of similar brown trout fisheries, but also the impact of providing angling opportunity (or restricting it) and that impact on nearby waters. It ultimately has to consider the accessibility of angling in Alberta as a whole and the fishery resource. In past, my points and counterpoints have always been to point those items out for people to consider the ramifications beyond one reach of one river, though for many of us our passion in getting involved derives solely from one river (the Bow in this instance).

The process of sorting through the above points of discussion is one that the gov undertakes through a Fisheries Management Plan, and there is a FMP Committee. We wrapped the Red Deer R FMPC this past spring. The Bow R FMPC went through the same process. Well respected, intelligent, thoughtful, people are involved in the process and it is a once a month commitment for 2 years as the framework of discussion occurs. Believe me, the items of discussion and consideration and their potential ramifications (short & long term) are put through the ringer. It is complex and involved and the amount of information and sharing is exhaustive. At the end of that process are not only recommendations for fisheries regulations by reach of watershed, river, etc, but a much broader reaching series of considerations per in/ex-stream course watershed habitats, habitat improvements/reclamations/future issues directives, etc. Science/biology is at the center of all the discussion. The FMP is so much more involved than to worry ‘only’ about fisheries regulations. It’s a whole set of considerations and recommendations. The resulting fishing regulations recommendations only reflect the state of the habitat – the regs are the canary in the coal mine.

Regarding the link that started this discussion, that link caused a lot more problems than most people can appreciate. There are massive questions in the process used to arrive at those recommendations and serious concerns moving forward. The simplest regulations changes for a few central Alberta brown trout streams have massive implications. Wrapped into that as well is the lack of a provincial round table mtg and discussions, and things are at a stand still. It’s a lot deeper than many recognize and with the budget state in Alberta it’s in limbo.

It’s almost unfortunate that the proposed Bow R reg changes were shared publicly in the manner of that link. My reasoning in saying that is that it’s a bit of disservice and disrespect to the process and people involved. It also short changes an opportunity for community outreach. The next step of the process is a public review process through information sessions that details the process, the data, science, and biology as well as social considerations in the process of getting to the proposed regulations changes. Jumping only to the regs and not looking at process as well as ignoring the other parts of the forthcoming complete Fisheries Mgt Plan focuses solely on the fish and misses the point of the full spectrum of considerations of our society and impact of our actions as a whole as they pertain to the Bow R habitat, which then trickles down to the regulations needed to keep what population of what species in the river. It misses opportunity to share and educate and encourage people to get involved in habitat protection.

While I have specific concerns about brown trout in Alberta, it has to be said that when you consider the state of every fish species in the province, browns are likely in the best overall health. (Impacts of floods and drought come and go). This doesn’t mean that serious changes aren’t needed to ensure things remain this way. But I would encourage everyone to also consider the state of fisheries management in Alberta. With the gov budgets we’re facing, the ongoing cuts to operations and staffing, it is far better to support our biologists and techs and take the time to understand and appreciate the process and frameworks they have to operate in than to express opinion form the hip. These people are trying to do best they can within that system.

Now, personally, given what I’ve seen in the differences in the health of brown trout in many fisheries due to the impacts of floods, drought, heavy forage vs poor forage, and so much in between, I’ve come to the conclusion that fishing regs are irrelevant (I stick to the legal regulations of course). My personal stance is that if the browns in a river aren’t at least ina state of being energy neutral I won’t fish that water until the available energy balance is neutral or +. And you can tell the state of a river’s fish at that time simply by seeing a photo of a fish, knowing the time of year and knowing what the environmental conditions are/have been. It’s easy to project what’s going on and line it up with your personal parameters. Seeing the stress of drought and floods, seeing post spawn browns literally spend months on end in a state of deteriorating suspension through central Alberta, seeing peak of summer doggo fish in New Zealand, and knowing that the impact of catching them only impacts them further, it’s simply unenjoyable to catch them though they are often the easiest fish to catch. It’s one thing to catch easy, skinny fish when you know positive energy is on its way (food: hatches, fry emergence, mice, etc). It’s another when you know that incoming energy is neutral or deficient. It’s why on this year’s trip to New Zealand’s S Island we spent 3 days fishing the west coast in 10 weeks though we've traditionally gone to NZ to fish the west coast. It poured rain for 7 weeks straight (150 to 400mm of rain a day, literally – let that sink in). The fish were skinny, suffering. Yes, we spend good $ to be there but for us the value of not impacting those fish was greater than our need to catch them - but only because we’re aware of the negative energy balance and their plight. What joy is there in easy fishing when you know the fish are desperate, suffering, and likely to continue to do so? And that is the point of all the above.

Just for some consideration.

Cheers

[billie]

Thank you for the additional perspective Dave.

 

I have a question relative to your terms "energy deficiency/neutral". I don't winter fish on the Bow since I believe that the fish are working hard enough to survive the winter. I just can't see past the appearance of feeding them some fur & feathers with no nutritional benefit, only energy expense. The regulations have the river open so it must not be that detrimental, and I have no issue with others doing so, I just don't go there.

 

So my question is simple, do the fish get enough food during the winter to reasonably offset the stress of being fished? Or is this an energy deficient situation? Significant, or minimal?

 

On a different but related topic, since closing a section may (or likely) move anglers to the non-closed waters, should closures be broader and include the whole watershed rather than a section? Or is this just chasing your tail and pushing anglers to the next watercourse available? Should a species be closed province wide for a specified period to be most effective? Or is the impact of mobile anglers not as much of a factor to worry about?

 

Naïve, no doubt, but I am curious.

 

Thanks to anyone that offers a view.

[toolman]

A big thank you too Dave Jensen for participating in this discussion and taking the time to share his thoughts and experiences .

Greatly appreciated and respected Dave.

 

And now, some education and entertainment....

 

Recognizing and protecting Brown Trout Spawning Areas.

 

 

 

Caught in the act....

 

[DaveJensen]

As it pertains to the Bow, obviously the FMPC feels that the Bow can produce enough positive energy through winter, or at least that the present and short term (next 5 yrs) forecast of angling impact is not detrimental to the population. The Bow has a unique productivity in Alberta thanks to the city of Cgy. The monitoring of angling impact is always up for future discussion based on examination of carrying capacity and biomass levels discussion as well as other impact (redd trampling, hooking mortality of aggressive fall males, etc). There really are only a handful of brown trout streams that could = enough positive energy to support a winter fishery in Alberta. The Bow is one, Stauffer another (very marginally and is based/relying on less angling pressure / impact at present), the Crow is good for rainbows (a few browns). There’s more to it all yet, but in the balance of opportunity, politics, and biology, here we are with the opportunity. Go with it until a change is needed.

As it pertains to browns, we need to look objectively in Alberta. How many post-spawn browns are caught through winter to early May that look like the above? If there isn’t enough energy and growth in a stream to recover a fish from the fall spawn’s wounds and markings, is there enough energy available to warrant us angling to them? Maybe we should hold each other to a higher account and not fish some waters at all at some points of the year, and pressure gov to that same std to ensure we don’t cause a demise of something so good. Of course, this then challenges the guiding principles of brown trout in Alberta; begs consideration of the spawning season; begs us to consider the wintering energy issues; forces us to accept the limitations and revisit the spring opening; will see a need to change regulations province wide; would force a brown trout management plan that brings managers from varying regions and districts into a discussion of how best to manage a collective of waters that are managed by several different managers though the waters themselves are mere miles apart; and would force a series of discussions on the management of the collective-whole. You begin to see how the link that started this thread raised many questions.

I wanted to come back to another aspect of my first post as, sure as anything, someone is going to hold me hard & fast to the absoluteness of what I wrote vis-à-vis the energy thing. (the more you say the more detail people want yet the more ambiguous you are the more people project upon you in the future...) My consideration is that having healthy fish to start with before energy deficit begins is one thing – and being in an energy deficit situation is somewhat sustainable and the exception to my position. For example, Amelia caught an 8 1/2 pound brown in NZ this year on a fringe mousey influenced west coast river. It was a sort-of mousey river and the mice were done there by late spring – hence available energy was lessening. 6 weeks later a friend caught the exact same fish. Due to the prolonged rains, the fish was 8 pounds – losing 1/2 pound in that time due to less energy available and greater energy expense. Still a very healthy fish and cicadas are now out so it should stabilize. That scenario is different than what I wrote in my first post because the fish had a very healthy profile to begin with. Starting with hurting fish is another thing altogether, such as a post flood Bow or RDR brown, or one that is skinny post spawn has zero chance of positive energy until early May. There’s a fine line sometimes, many/most other times it’s flat obvious.

But when we know the trends of fish in Alberta and ignore them, allowing open brown trout season all winter or April 1 when we know their trends and likely condition, that energy isn’t available until May, does it make sense in the long run/ future of our fisheries to allow our impact? How many photos of browns have you seen on the internet from the Bow or other waters that look like this next one, taken in winter or late spring and the fish obviously is energy neutral or negative and hasn't recovered from spawning 6 months earlier? That's why these fish look like this. And once you know their plight... well, sorry, I've likely ruined winter fishing for a few people.

[Villageidiot]

Tough to justify any fishing in April. Bulls and browns are brutally skinny and beat up, rainbows are on the spawn. Cutts are typically closed/spawning. Just a matter of being conscious about it and limiting your impact. Of course there are a few exceptions, but for the most part it is what it is. I typically dont like fishing for fish when they're at their easiest to catch which is during the spawning times as it represents zero challenge, if you can't catch them/trick them in their prime health it represents what type of angler you really are. However i do fish in April, sometimes I drive way south across the border, other times i get out 2-3 times around central/northern Alberta through April. I just try to pick and choose the most appropriate place and what/where can handle having hooks stuck in them. Half the time April fishing is a crapshoot anyways if you cant find wintering holes. But those "epic" days some people have early season are really more detrimental to fisheries, then they are to boosting a persons ego.

 

Not many people realize what exactly is going on. Its a matter of limiting your impact on fish at a vulnerable time in the year.

[flyfishy]

Wow , wish I could send a short story! Like you boys!

My two bits is , stop fishing minnow 's or only use one hook small size 8 not to hurt the little fellow. we know they eat the big stuff . Then fatass Browns!

Tip. Dont drag that baby on the rocks and no head out of the water to long , you know the photo...

I'm a trout fan as we all are,maybe don't kiss your trout aswell.

Hope that helps and not off topic.

Live to fish . What's the truth?

[billie]

I guess I'm not too far off base with my choice to not fish the winter. I will pay pretty close attention to the spring catches also. I do fish prior to run-off as much as I can but it is in May for me (only so much self imposed "closed" season a guy can take ). If I see stressed fish, I'll back off then too.

 

Thanks again for the info Dave. I always try to respect the quarry, whatever it is (and I have to say I'm very fond of trout) and information is good to have.

[jpinkster]

Great information Dave, thanks for that!

[SilverDoctor]

Excellent information Dave

[toolman]

Great perspective Dave.

 

It's interesting that some people have such an emotional reaction to a photo of a brown that is a little skinny, but otherwise, seems in very good health. I'm sure many people feel pressured into silence by a few online anglers accusing them of being unethical if they fish in October/November, or if they fish in the winter, or if they use nymphs, or fish the Highwood Confluence in March/early April, or use spin tackle, or a two handed spey rod, or post a photo on a fishing forum, or use a jet boat....

Often, these same folks will complain to anyone who will listen, that "SOMEONE" should "DO SOMETHING" about their latest urgent crisis.

Well, I think you know the kind of folks I'm talking about....

 

On occasion, I have caught post spawn Browns in the winter that looked like the one in the photo that Dave posted, yet on the same afternoon, caught half dozen other Browns from the same pool that were fat and feisty. On yet another day on the water during run off in 2006, I was catching many healthy adult Browns on a section of river, but downstream a few hundred yards at another pool, the Browns were starving in the high flows. I have seen this many times over many years of fishing the Bow.

As conditions change on each section of water, the fish will adapt. Some fare better than others.

 

And consider what the starving, travel weary, post spawn Rainbows look like when they return to the Bow in May/early June. They all look very bad. Then they face the high, turbid flows of run off, followed by peak fishing pressure. Then come the low flows of late July/August as the irrigation canal diverts a disproportional amount of water that nature intended to send to the Bow fishies and the additional impact of the many upstream Dams that start to hoard water for power generation and municipal use, at a time when the water temps are dangerously high and oxygen saturation is dangerously low. Especially during the drought years like we had a dozen years ago.

 

Yet, we fish away and our fishery survives. No, it actually thrives. This is the resilient Blue Ribbon Bow that I know...

I really don't hear any "Canary in the Coal Mine" in regards to these issues,

but it sure seems like some folks are trying real hard to make the "Fat Lady Sing", their song....

It's a familiar refrain....

[bcubed]

If what the Bow has been in the last three-five years is thriving, we're in trouble.

[billie]

@Toolman

I'm not sure if your comments are relative to my posts or if you are simply commenting independently. If the latter, ignore my rambling references .

 

I accepted Dave's commentary as information only, granted, it supports my thought process. I hesitated to post given the lead in to "ethics", but I posted anyway, and I will take ownership of that decision.

 

I tried to relay my own personal choices without invoking an ethical dilemma to others. In truth, I believe every fisherperson (and hunter) should impose some personal limits above and beyond the regulations. Maybe you have a minimum size that you follow where none is regulated, keep less than the maximum limit, or leave sensitive areas alone and secret or limit your pressure on them in that spot. If everyone does their small part, in one way or another, its simply a good thing, IHMO. I also don't believe that is invoking your personal ethics on others. Just because I don't fish in winter doesn't mean I don't want anyone else to, and it definitely wasn't my intended point. Chastising others would cross the line and I don't believe I did.

 

I have noticed the odd skinny fish here and there, but haven't noticed it as a common trend in any particular place that I've fished. I will look closer now given your observations of different pools in the same water course. Thanks for another educational head's up. The more you know...........

 

Anyway, I'm not overly emotional but I am better educated.

 

Cheers

[jpinkster]

Toolman stated this earlier, but I'll say it again...

 

I'm just glad we are able to have this discussion in an intelligent and thoughtful matter. This thread has really been a fantastic exchange of ideas and perspectives...sure beats the River Etiquette threads!

[FraserN]

I completly agree with Dave's excellent post. I do not fish the Bow in the winter due to the energy constraints the fish are under. Even one tough fight with a fisherman could be enough to tip the balance in a negative direction for survival of a badly stressed fish. The reason I am not completly in favor of a winter closure on the Bow is that the season weather tends to take care of the resource. Even in a warm winter like this one, pressure drops dramatically. On the stretch I live on in the NW, I dont think I have seen a single angler on the river this entire winter, even on double digit temperature days. As for the spring, I have caught plenty of those beat up, sometimes skinny browns on the Bow, yet they seem to swim off fine when released in the cold water. There really is only so much self control available to me given all the restrictions (spring and fall Closures) we face. After a long winter, a guy simply wants to get a fly in the water, and maybe catch a couple trout before the fast action of post run-off summer fishing.

[DaveJensen]

Thanks here to folks understanding that I’m just sharing one person’s perspective while trying to help folks understand process.

I’ve long said it shouldn’t be called fisheries mgt. Without humans the fish would do very well on their own.

It has to be said that the rainbows should be in a good place through the winter in the Bow, hence the opening. Generally, the stage of annual life cycle has them in a good place up until spring at least (and I'll exit that conversation stage left!). The central AB brown trout stuff is a sidebar herring, apologies. Back to this being a discussion about Bow R browns.

Let’s remember that the Bow R FMPC has used science and a whole host of variables to put forth the recommendations, and that we’re at a good place. (at a good place is relative and in perspective when scaled within the flood recovery and natural re-population of browns). It is the best we have. Let’s not lose sight of that. Full stop.

OK! So, now that I’ve shared my perspective, some detail on the Fisheries Mgt Plan process, the biology, let’s look at an important aspect of the entire process: SOCIAL.

Let’s completely discount my position of not fishing to stressed fish. My position could be seen as an elitist position. I don’t see it that way. But, others might, that’s fair, I get it. Let’s look at the fact that Amelia & I fish 200 days a year anyway. We have no kids, no dog, no mortgage, no payments because of the sacrifices and squireling of $ and how life has gone healthily thus far. We don’t make a lot of $ but all we want to do is fish and share fishing. BUT, we get to go to New Zealand for 3 months year because of how we’ve set up our lives, we’ve established a way to do it economically – most wouldn’t want to live as we do there. But because we get to avoid much of winter (Nov – Jan) in Alberta and fish NZ summer, it removes the desire to force a few fish to hand in Ab winters. Combine that with the skinny, poor energy of post spawn and winter, I find it tough to fish browns. That’s me / us (to be clear!) One perspective in a vast social discussion.

ENTER SOCIAL considerations here. The Bow is well known. Calgarians love it. It’s a healthy escape. Allowing fishing ties people to fishing, it supports the industry, the entire process that includes everyone from bios/gov types to guides, shuttle co’s etc. It keeps a lot of people sane in the winter and some people suffer from depression/SAD or need a mental escape. Hence, and this is important, because the FMP sees that there is room for angling without detriment on the population, one person’s decision to not fish vs another’s to fish should simply be left to themselves. If we need to close the Bow to #2 all winter eventually, then that’s what will happen. But for today it is open to fish most of the year and that’s a great thing.

As you can see, trying to shed light on the FMP process is involved, hence why what you will eventually see in public review has a lot behind it: likely 20 people directly spending 2 years on the process. Remember this process and how involved it is the next time you or someone you know calls a biologist, enforcement officer, a tech, etc an idiot or that they don't know what they are doing. There is a process involved, one that has many, many considerations. It ain't perfect but nor are any of us.

I think that's as far as I can go to be of help here folks. Hope my involvement helped a little. Cheers & good fishing.