Be Careful Out There

[DonAndersen]

Guys/Gals,

 

After the lady was bitten bad by an otter last summer in BC I've been watching otter antics all over the net.

They are not all the cute little critters that most of us believe.

 

See: http://www.montrealgazette.com/technology/...2956/story.html

 

Otters are now quite commonly seen on our trout waters. I have been chased by otters at two different lakes while in my pontoon boat. Got a email from another guy who was chased off of the Crow.

There have been people fatalities in otter encounters in Florida.

 

Just be aware, these are not little cute animals. A good sized otter may exceed 30 lbs.

 

regards,

 

Don

[SilverDoctor]

They're bad new for our trout waters.

[BigFoamy]

saw one down in douglasdale last year before the flood. scared the crap out of me because i had never seen one in real life before. It was huge IMO probably 2'-3' long and not afraid at all.

[bcubed]

They're bad new for our trout waters.

 

yup, and us humans are impeccablely good for them. I'd much rather spend the time sharing water with an otter then the vast majority of humans.

 

The anti-otter crowd is hilarious (i.e., ridiculous).

[WyomingGeorge]

Yes, there's an almost Monty Python-esque absurdity to labelling a thread about otters "be careful out there".

 

Look, virtually anything can get you killed, but this post-modern tendency to turn every single thing in our lives into a safety issue and risk management challenge is pathetic.

[bcubed]

That's because Don thinks that the Otters are the scourge of the earth, especially when it comes to brown trout populations......

[Smitty]

And the fear mongering continues Don...

And here are some reasons why you shouldn't visit Austrailia...

http://www.viralnova.com/australia-is-dangerous/

More seriously, if the bios have some credible data, and the really think something ought to be done about otters, well, I'm open to suggestions. But if we're going to have a serious discussion about what's bad for trout, should we not at least talk about the vast thousands of km of gravel roads criss-crossing the back country with x % of them having poor culverts and/or bridge designs, and the attendant erosion that goes with them?

Just a thought.

Smitty

[Brookie]

Had a funny experience with otters on the Elk River several years ago. I was fishing from shore when a mother otter and two kits swam close by me. The mother otter had the most disdainful look on her face. It was a "what the hell are you doing here" look. I will always remember it. Never had any trouble with otters on lakes in the East Kootenays yet.

[jpinkster]

Had a funny experience with otters on the Elk River several years ago. I was fishing from shore when a mother otter and two kits swam close by me. The mother otter had the most disdainful look on her face. It was a "what the hell are you doing here" look. I will always remember it. Never had any trouble with otters on lakes in the East Kootenays yet.

 

Looks like the otters have found a way to mimic the same face Albertans get from the locals out there!

[Jayhad]

I think we should all be much more concerned about the dangers encountered when we as angler see beavers. Not only are they "destroying" our wetlands by downing trees and stopping flows, but they are killing sportsman every week

https://www.google.ca/url?q=http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/attacking-beavers-a-concern-in-belarus-after-man-killed-1.1396377&sa=U&ei=Tp1WU6XgLqTN2AW8lYHgDg&ved=0CB0QFjAA&usg=AFQjCNEvOCfz9CzWCygFtEMrFWDgYCC91g

 

Yes Bcube, ridiculous is the word I would use as well

[darrinhurst]

Dear lord, why did the guy try to "grab him"? No wonder he was bitten several times.

 

Would it be appropriate to categorize this as a Darwin Award?

[troutlover]

Beavers although don't attack humans will attack your dog they are commonly known for dragging dogs under water to their death. So keep an eye on Rover if Beavers are around. There are otters on a small Southern Alberta stream I fish. I see them eating fish all the time but it hasn't seemed to effect the population however; a lot of residents (ranchers) on this stream keep over their limit and eat everything they catch and by the end of the season it doesn't fish well but every spring new fish move in from a larger river down stream of this tributary and the fishing is great till mid August. In this case humans are the issue not otters.Thanks for the heads up Don ill be sure to carry my Otter spray in the future.

[Smitty]

Look, let me say this;

 

Don's a smart guy and has done lots of pro bono work (Barry M too) in terms of trouty issues and getting them discussed and addressed (often, physical labor is involved). And I want to, and do, respect that. I respect that a lot.

 

The bottom line for me is, and I'm sure Don is checking this thread, so I'll ask him directly, is this:

 

Where on the top 5, top 10, top 20 list does the "otter issue" fit in? I mean to ask this seriously and respectfully. Between the otters, ecosystem balance, habitat loss, angling pressure, fisheries management, industrial intrusion, erosion, climate change, logging, and everything else, is the otter thing in the top 3? Top 20? Does this issue merit serious serious consideration? Cause we can certainly make the jokes, and everyone - including me - can post a "smart-remark" reply, but, give him credit, Don at least is a defender of all things trouty. And that's intended as a compliment.

Hey, trying to admit my ignorance here. There are smart people on the FFC board. There are smart people plugged into these kinds of issues. Where the hell do otters fit in, in terms of priority? Cause ya, I'm pretty skeptical. And I know the topic has been done previously, just wondering if anyone has an update besides somewhat interesting anecdotal videos. Are the bios actually compiling data here?

Smitty

[WyomingGeorge]

Holy smokes, now I feel sorry for the pile-on.

 

Don, it wasn't that you were factually wrong, it just, you know, came across as a tad over-anxious, compared perhaps to Putin's behaviour towards Ukraine.

[bcubed]

For some background, for those that haven't seen this argument (and don't understand why some of us jumped on him..)

 

 

http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?showtopic=15906

 

 

I'd rather spend a day on a mediocre river with an otter, then a river that is artificially stocked because human beings have taken it past the brink.

[Ricinus]

IIRC, Don's argument against otters was that they were being introduced into areas that was never their habitat. If nothing else, he's woke everybody up..

 

Mike

[bcubed]

are they being introduced, or are they being pushed out of their native habitat (by guys who are pissed about them eating brown trout)? Big difference

[bigbowtrout]

I like cake!!!

[Ricinus]

are they being introduced, or are they being pushed out of their native habitat (by guys who are pissed about them eating brown trout)? Big difference

I don't know, you tell me. SRD doesn't seem to want to talk about it..

 

Mike

[DaveJensen]

The only documented, recorded otter releases were literally two single releases of male otters in the 1990s. They were not an attempt at introduction. There remains no proof that there is a plague of otters out there, that there is any threat to our fisheries because of it, nor that any subsequent otter population increase (if there is any) was due to any relocation of animals as opposed to a response to habitat shift. Could otters ultimately be a threat to our fisheries? Yes - but that depends on your weighted value system. In partial response to Mike's question - humans will always have far more to say about what happens to our fish than anything in nature.

[Ricinus]

In partial response to Mike's question - humans will always have far more to say about what happens to our fish than anything in nature.

 

 

Sure can't argue with that..

 

Mike

[DonAndersen]

Gee, thank God I posted the stuff about otters after the shack nasties disappeared.

 

In answer to Smitty's question. I'd expect that there are many things that effect stream more than otters. Dams, spills, irrigation demands, land use, cows, quads. Chose your poison. For my take, otters are just one more addition to the downward trend. But you and others can chose to sit on your butts while the fish gobbling goes on. For my part, I'd whack 'me if legal. But like all predators, ESRD loves 'em so I expect that in keeping with their ESRD's present speed of dealing with issues, sometime in 2050 or so seems a good guess as to when the Biologist finds Otter *hit. For those that are wondering why anyone would look for Otter *hit, it seems like this is the accepted method of determing what Otters eat. My belief is you see them on Priarie Creek, they are eating fish.

 

And Dave - how do you know how many otters were stocked. The Freedom of Indormation query doesn't reflect any numbers. Further, when I asked, the Regional biologist either didn't know it the stocking had happened or lied to me. To date, my impression is that ESRD is still looking for Otter *hit. From the information I've heard, there were Otters stocked up and down the eastern Slopes. But I've no proof. Dave says two and offers no proof. So I guess it's somewhere between ?>?

When the last fisheries presentation was done in Rocky, I asked the biologist in that meeting if anyone in the local office had ever seen an Otter. She said that someone may have seen one 30+ years previously. In that same meeting were at least 3 employees of ESRD who just sat there. Do they know - hell every one that worked for ESRD knew. But sit they did.

 

Enough on Otters.

 

Anyone try to eat one? Are they greasy like Beaver?

 

Don

 

 

[DaveJensen]

http://www.albertafishinginsights.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/River-Otters.pdf

There you go. Through contact with Fish folks through the years, that's all that is on record to my knowledge, which is only what's been disclosed - as far as official as we'll get. Clearly does not mention the word stocked - releasing one male on two different locations/times is not a stocking. It's a live release to cover their asses to not keep a wild animal in captivity too long.

 

And Don, while we disagree on many things, never take me as not respecting what you've done and how you've been involved regardless if you think I'm attacking you. Hasn't been my intent a long time - the issues are much bigger and we simply don't agree that process and truly identifying/quantifying the variables has to happen - otherwise how do we know if there is a problem much less if there is a problem? That analysis of variables takes time.

 

The biggest issue on forums remains that people want live, real-time, knee-jerk biology, which has massive room for error. Time, trends, and observations with plans implemented to accommodate surplus or shortcomings in F&W have to be allowed for. It is otherwise impossible to manage anything - these things take time to evolve and the direct causes are often not obvious. Social media simply doesn't allow for this process - we people tend to want what we want, when we want it, how we want it - and that's just never always going to line up when it comes to something so diverse as natural processes. Enjoy what we have, take the time to try to better things by being involved (which clearly you've been Don - this isn't at you, just statements in general). But the important thing is to get/remain involved. Just because we think 5 years to make a change is 'too long', 5 years is a speck of sand in nature's timeline.

 

Cheers.

[DonAndersen]

Gee Dave,

 

I've been involved with fisheries and water issues for over 40 years. I've also worked for private industry. If private industry employee operated at the speed of ESRD, they would be canned.

Like a previous manager of mine pointed out, there are two types of people - self starters and kick starters. Which pile would ESRD employees be placed. Taking 38+ years and still no response to illegal perch stockings is criminal.

And just where did you get the info on otter stocking. My sources say they were stocked in Chambers Creek and Elk creek + a

pile of them SW of Sundre. Again. The only proof is the Freedom of Information request. Queries about otters gets silence or lies.

 

Don

[DonAndersen]

And just so ya know, otters are now carriers of human pathogens. No evidence YET that the pathogens have mutated and jumped to man. Remember AIDs, bird flu, swine flu. Can otter flu be far behind?

 

See: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/jason-tetro/otters-and-human-health_b_5182913.html

 

Don't drink the water - otters swim & crap in it.

 

 

Don