Sick Of Seeing Sw Alberta Go To Crap

[egocop]

Point #1 If it's better for the fish EVEN though I do guide some of these waters... *I AM* willing to give them ma break - what about you?

 

Point #2 Wasn't even me personally between Jul 31 and Aug 17th, but those closures were for waters DOWNSTREAM of HWY22. All the area in question is UPSTREAM of HWY22. So check YOUR facts. The last report I put up on the site was probably in June. I havent done much guiding these days. No one wants to walk and wade when sites like this tell all the secrets, ya know. Only people I guide now are my international guys from europe

 

 

FACT 1:

http://alberta.ca/home/NewsFrame.cfm?Relea...F5F31ED1E8.html

 

[ÜberFly]

Busted!

 

P

 

 

FACT 1:

http://alberta.ca/home/NewsFrame.cfm?Relea...F5F31ED1E8.html

 

[wongrs]

here's an idea. take a page out of the greenpeace or david suzuki foundation handbook and put together some campaign-styled advocacy. these organizations, while you may not agree with all of their views, are effective at producing easy-to-understand educational materials. they are also effective at influencing various stakeholders such as industry, government and the public.

 

a letter writing campaign can be effective if there is a common message among the letters. if everyone on this forum wrote their own letter with their own suggestions, what would Ted Morton do with all the suggestions? in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to get buy-in from differing stakeholders and put forth recommendations that are supported by all.

 

i also suggest that any campaign be targeted at the public as well. education may help to curb poor behaviour. a big enough stink will make the evening news and you will be speaking to thousands of albertans who share this resource.

 

my suggestions:

1) document the problem with pictures, reports and whatever data is available to illustrate the problem visually (i.e. on a website)

2) consult professionals in the industry (i.e. Harps, Stelfox and others)

3) consult other stakeholders (ATVers, trout unlimited, forestry sector, government personnel, other fishing groups) mentioned by pipestoneflyguy as having common interests to this group

4) propose regulatory changes that satisfy all stakeholders

5) present results to media or SRD

 

another good idea would be to head down there and film some nasty stuff, produce it professionally and put it on youtube (and send to media).

 

approaching various media outlets to do a story on the area would also help throughout the process. flushing out ideas here is a good start and it happens every year but fizzles out. i think you need to get consensus on what the problem is, regulatory changes on how to alleviate said problem, and outreach to the broader public and other stakeholders who don't understand what said problem is and who wouldn't normally care about it.

 

there are many professionals on this forum who have the ability to put together a substantial outreach campaign. putting together these efforts would produce more than a simple letter writing campaign. i bet you could get some good input if you called up an enviro org and asked for their opinion on some ideas.

 

2 cents worth from an accused 'eco-weenie'. while i don't live in ab any more, i still care about the condition of the area.

[PeteZahut]

No one wants to walk and wade when sites like this tell all the secrets, ya know. Only people I guide now are my international guys from europe

 

Not true. Although not with you, I hired a guide for a walk and wade on the Ram this summer. Second time on the Ram with him in the past three years.

[bigbowtrout]

It was not a closure!!! it was just an advisory so everyone was still allowed to fish the area.

I fished a few streams that they had under the blanket of "eastern slopes streams" and the water temp never even got close to the 22 C that they recommend.

 

Lets get this thread back to what it was or it will be closed.

 

Thanks

 

[Hawgstoppah]

It was not a closure!!! it was just an advisory so everyone was still allowed to fish the area.

I fished a few streams that they had under the blanket of "eastern slopes streams" and the water temp never even got close to the 22 C that they recommend.

 

exactly. the upper oldman the highest temp I ever saw (well above the "gap") was 58F (maybe 15c?)

 

FACT: I always stay off "foothills" streams in the heat of summer, and stick to high mountain streams that ARE cold. Now, mr egocop.. back to the point of this thread instead of trying to "bash" someone who in spite of what you'd like to think, has the fish's best interest at heart here.

[Taco]

Brian, where you're getting your population numbers from?

[wtforward]

PeteZahut..Not to hijack this thread but why would you

need a guide on the North ?Ram ??

[bulltrout]

cake...

[reevesr1]

I just spent the last 4 days fishing several different cuttie streams from tiny headwaters to mid sized creeks to big rivers in 3 different watersheds. The area I fished is not, nor has ever been as far as I know, over run by random campers. I've seen some quads, but almost all hunters. Some of the creeks had footprints, but those were ours from the last week. In the 4 days, we saw exactly one other fisherman.

 

Cuttie fishing was not good (though the trip itself was fantastic). A couple of the creeks I'd fished before and they are typically very productive, one for big and one for smaller cutts. The one known for bigger fish did produce ok (maybe 40 or 50 fish between the three of us) but the size was WAY down. The second creek, where you can be fairly assured of lots of 12" class fish did not produce really at all, though we did catch a few really small fish and a few brookies.

 

We went to a river system I had never fished before, but it had a reputation of being a good cutt fishery. We caught a few fish in the 12" class, a few smaller guys and hooked a couple of bigger fish. But it was very slow. We did not see a single fish rise all day!

 

The only big fish we caught the whole trip was when we lucked into a big mayfly hatch. Suddenly, the river was absolutely alive with big cutts. See a rise, catch a fish for about a 1/2 hour or so. If you missed the cast, you were likely to catch another one anyway. Then the switch went back to off. We did not catch a single cutt on that section before or after the hatch, and it's not like they were not there.

 

Other than the mayfly hatch and a bit of surface activity in a very deep pool at the end of day 1 (and if they rose, you could catch them), we only saw maybe a dozen risers the entire trip.

 

So the moral of this story is that I think there is much more going on with the fishing in the cuttie streams than the random camping/quad dilemma. While I am not naive enough to believe that it isn't having an impact, it is not the only ,or maybe even the major, cause of the poor cuttie fishing this year. I don't know if it is weather, cooler water temperatures, more food, whatever that is making the cutties act weird, but whatever it is it is not random camping, ohv's, or angling pressure-at least in the area of bc I was fishing. Something else is at play here.

[canadensis]

I should state that my thoughts and sentiments from my original post go out to ALL of alberta's designated "crown land" which is getting quadded and camped to death (this includes west of rocky mtn house, etc etc).

 

At the very least we need a complete ban on all off roading (including driving RV's to random sites) and even up to including driving any vehicle off a road to access fishing. The area is too fragile to handle this any longer. We're destroying our kids future fisheries. The time is now.

 

Anyone know who I can contact to set up a non profit org. in alberta?

 

Did you pursue this at all?

[canadagrey]

here's an idea. take a page out of the greenpeace or david suzuki foundation handbook and put together some campaign-styled advocacy. these organizations, while you may not agree with all of their views, are effective at producing easy-to-understand educational materials. they are also effective at influencing various stakeholders such as industry, government and the public.

 

a letter writing campaign can be effective if there is a common message among the letters. if everyone on this forum wrote their own letter with their own suggestions, what would Ted Morton do with all the suggestions? in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to get buy-in from differing stakeholders and put forth recommendations that are supported by all.

 

i also suggest that any campaign be targeted at the public as well. education may help to curb poor behaviour. a big enough stink will make the evening news and you will be speaking to thousands of albertans who share this resource.

 

my suggestions:

1) document the problem with pictures, reports and whatever data is available to illustrate the problem visually (i.e. on a website)

2) consult professionals in the industry (i.e. Harps, Stelfox and others)

3) consult other stakeholders (ATVers, trout unlimited, forestry sector, government personnel, other fishing groups) mentioned by pipestoneflyguy as having common interests to this group

4) propose regulatory changes that satisfy all stakeholders

5) present results to media or SRD

 

another good idea would be to head down there and film some nasty stuff, produce it professionally and put it on youtube (and send to media).

 

approaching various media outlets to do a story on the area would also help throughout the process. flushing out ideas here is a good start and it happens every year but fizzles out. i think you need to get consensus on what the problem is, regulatory changes on how to alleviate said problem, and outreach to the broader public and other stakeholders who don't understand what said problem is and who wouldn't normally care about it.

 

there are many professionals on this forum who have the ability to put together a substantial outreach campaign. putting together these efforts would produce more than a simple letter writing campaign. i bet you could get some good input if you called up an enviro org and asked for their opinion on some ideas.

 

2 cents worth from an accused 'eco-weenie'. while i don't live in ab any more, i still care about the condition of the area.

While a lot of responses here are great, If we want something done we have to get out and do it. . Having attended a number of meetings where these types of probems are identified, little has been done. All of us bitching on the web and not getting focussed on the problem and the solutiions for the big picture does little to rectify the problem. I believe that if we are as concerned over this issue as this thread seems to indicate that we are the solution. I like this multi targeted approach.

Now how can we get it done?

Who's going to take the lead?

How are we going to get all the interested stakeholders?

Get the goups together

Establish a plan.

Oh, by the way. Are YOU going to give up a prime fishing weekend to be envolved or just give lip service?

[Guest frypan]

some intresting readign here with the same banter from the usuel suspects

 

wonder how many that suport no fishign/closing things down for years had fished the areas last year and will this year ?

 

soem thought provokign ideas however and is worhty of resurecting the discusion . . .

 

edit-

i fished these water almose exclusifely last year . more fish than i remembr in a long time . too many people , but who is to blame for tat ? we all are i think

[BBBrownie]

I think this is an old thread that should be resurected. I am going to make an effort to do a weekend evidence collecting trip just to have some documentation of some of what is happening down there. It will add some back up to letters and heresay. It would sure be nice to gain momentum toward closing at least some of the major culprits in the road/trail system, perhaps ban random camping along a few roads, etc. I am not in to banning all fishing, just mitigating some of the impacts. Would be nice to try and get funding for some enhancement and mitigation projects out that way. West Castle is one that I really enjoy that has been abused for years and really could use some lovin.

[Smitty]

How about we do this instead? and I'll start, (after I'm done with this posting):

 

How about we make a voluntary rule that, instead of just resurrecting this old thread and gibbering on and on...AND ON about it, and before the thread reaches its 10th page, why don't we try this:

 

If you agree that something is to be done, then you are NOT allowed to post on this thread until you have written your letter and can attach it for everyone to see?

 

Anyone else in? Who else will do this? Can you even write an opening paragraph before replying? At least get a letter started? Or do you just want to sit there in your comfy chair and be one of thousands wasting work time (hey I'm guilty too) doing zilch?

 

Lest I become my own worst hypocrite, this will be my last post until I have a letter written, since I am one of those people that believes something should be done.

 

There. Lets see if anyone bites on that.

 

 

Smitty

[Guest frypan]

How about we do this instead? and I'll start, (after I'm done with this posting):

 

How about we make a voluntary rule that, instead of just resurrecting this old thread and gibbering on and on...AND ON about it, and before the thread reaches its 10th page, why don't we try this:

 

If you agree that something is to be done, then you are NOT allowed to post on this thread until you have written your letter and can attach it for everyone to see?

 

Anyone else in? Who else will do this? Can you even write an opening paragraph before replying? At least get a letter started? Or do you just want to sit there in your comfy chair and be one of thousands wasting work time (hey I'm guilty too) doing zilch?

 

Lest I become my own worst hypocrite, this will be my last post until I have a letter written, since I am one of those people that believes something should be done.

 

There. Lets see if anyone bites on that.

 

 

Smitty

 

good idea smitty

 

i have writen many letter s saying no quads and limit the lenght of stay when camping to 5 day . not just a problem a long the livingston btw . . how bout the rest of the province , that is how i see it

 

sadly i beleive that not a thing will happen . this area is hardest hit by spray lake saw mil and the O&G companys , a few squaters and quads is the fall out from allowign such heavy comercial activity ,

 

imagn if they close the area to recreatoin yet still allow the heavy industrail use , ha ha ah ha sorry will never happen

 

sad deal is as we all burn fuel, build wit wood , etc , etc , it all has to come from some where

[Harps]

Hey Fry,

 

I'd say there is more impact from off-highway vehicles (as I've said before) than you think.

Let’s see your letters.

 

 

Yes logging does some damage to the ecosystem, but it is also one of the main contributors to the replenishing and rehabilitation to it also. Logging has been hit hard with large fines and even larger interest groups watching and making sure that they are learning to do things in a more constructive manner. (There are some logging issues)

The O&G industry is working hard to turn their image around to the point where there are putting alot of cash and time into rehabilitation work to help fisheries. (There are some O&G issues) What pisses me off is when quadders wreak the banks at these spots because the trees haven't come all the way up yet, and cause tons of damage that cost taxpayers and the O&G company.

 

Why don't the quadders have to pay?!? Quad owners that ruin the land and rut up our countryside will only learn by heavy fines and court time.

 

There are over 30,000 visitors to the west castle ski hill in the summer, 80,000 skiiers in the winter (2008 numbers, Also .4 million people/nights of camping in Southern Alberta for that summer). There was an extremely high number of atvs counted (in the hundreds of thousands- a Castle crown or AWA count that I can’t find right now). In the Castle area there are over 1200km of trails!?! That’s in an area of only 1000 sq km! How many km of rivers and streams can be impacted by heavy trail use of those trails? With hundreds of thousands of users over a summer, how can anything be fixed? How can anything survive? Where can you go for quiet? Where does the wildlife get pushed to? When does stream side vegetation (filters sediment) get a chance to grow back to protect the trout and slow flood flows?

 

We need regulation and enforcement!!

No random camping and regulated trail use!

 

Excerpt from one of my letters (which actually resulted in some action… although not because of my letter> media and MLA’s were involved):

It is in the xxxxx[Removed for secrecy]xxxxxxx ... tributary streams to the Oldman River, that once contained native westslope cutthroat trout, but now support an important recreational fishery for various trout species such as rainbow, brook, and bull rout. Many of the mud pits these guys are going through were beautiful clean gravel bottom streams. Most of that sediment ladden water will flow into xxxxx Creek and its tributaries, smothering the developing eggs from spring spawners and disrupting feeding and movements of adult fish. The sediment also flows downstream, unhealthy water for cattle and wildlife species to be drinking.

 

The government holds industry responsible for their actions, and makes them jump through hoops to even do a clean one-time crossing of a watercourse, yet this type of activity goes on every weekend in Alberta, and across much of Canada. We need enforcement and we need some land-use restrictions!

 

Also a number of the vehicles were xxxx, xxxx, and xxxx’s. Maybe they would be willing to begin a environmental stewardship program in relation to responsible trail driving or fund some bridge construction and boulders to maintain off-road trails while protecting fish habitats?

 

There is a place for off-road vehicle use, there are lots of ponds without fish, areas where these activities will not harm species on a population level. This activity should NOT be going on in our public streams and on our public lands (its also the taxpayers that pay for the cleanups of these areas).

 

 

 

But, I guess… as I read on a different forum:

“It's just Alberta boys... Take what you can while you can, if ya cant beat em join em.“

 

[Xplorer]

Hey Guys,

 

To quote Harps "We need regulation and enforcement!! No random camping and regulated trail use!" This is exactly what this province needs. I own an Atv that I use responsibly and I used to belong to an atv club that promoted responsible atv use, bridge repairs and installation, family outing's etc, etc. I felt it was helping but given the large number of atv users that don't give a crap and never join a club, it was kind of pointless.It seemed that for each person in the club, there were 19 who weren't and didn't care. The club that I am refering to is the Crowsnest Quad Squad, here's a link if anyone is interested in what they are doing..Quad Squad, they also branched off into the Calgary Quad Squad which is doing similar projects just farther north around the Calgary area.

 

I think Atv'ers are there own worst enemy at times, this previous winter, bridges that were installed by the Quad Squad and 4wd groups, were damaged for no apparent reason. One was chain sawed in half and the other was disassembled and thrown in the trees. Both of these acts took time, but what I don't get is why? I guess this goes back to the pointless part, why build the bridge, when alot of guys just go around it to go through the creek. I guess I am feeling a little tired of trying to educate the masses(atver's anyway) about the impact they are having, when nobody seems to listen. The Quad Squad is doing good work and will be putting in more bridges this year and hopefully educating more and more atver's.

 

I guess my point in all of this is, that some guys who have/use atv's want more enforcement, more rules, consequences for abuse and designated trails just as much as everyone here does. I just don't know if it will happen from the Alberta Government.

 

my 2cents

Lance

 

[Rainbowhunter]

Hey Guys,

 

To quote Harps "We need regulation and enforcement!! No random camping and regulated trail use!" This is exactly what this province needs. I own an Atv that I use responsibly and I used to belong to an atv club that promoted responsible atv use, bridge repairs and installation, family outing's etc, etc. I felt it was helping but given the large number of atv users that don't give a crap and never join a club, it was kind of pointless.It seemed that for each person in the club, there were 19 who weren't and didn't care. The club that I am refering to is the Crowsnest Quad Squad, here's a link if anyone is interested in what they are doing..Quad Squad, they also branched off into the Calgary Quad Squad which is doing similar projects just farther north around the Calgary area.

 

I think Atv'ers are there own worst enemy at times, this previous winter, bridges that were installed by the Quad Squad and 4wd groups, were damaged for no apparent reason. One was chain sawed in half and the other was disassembled and thrown in the trees. Both of these acts took time, but what I don't get is why? I guess this goes back to the pointless part, why build the bridge, when alot of guys just go around it to go through the creek. I guess I am feeling a little tired of trying to educate the masses(atver's anyway) about the impact they are having, when nobody seems to listen. The Quad Squad is doing good work and will be putting in more bridges this year and hopefully educating more and more atver's.

 

I guess my point in all of this is, that some guys who have/use atv's want more enforcement, more rules, consequences for abuse and designated trails just as much as everyone here does. I just don't know if it will happen from the Alberta Government.

 

my 2cents

Lance

[/quote

all this batter back and forth about random camping and quading is driving me crazy!! I have to admit, i am a suspect, i camp and quad and fish and hunt in the crowsnest area, i would just like to know, how many of you people who are with banning camping and quading have ever camped over night , to go fish?? or ever camped in general, if you have you are a suspect aswell, when we camp we use firepits that have been there for years , and when we quad, because i fish the river and love them i do my best to not corss them!! The small amount of damage that the quads do to the trail is minimal compared to the hundreds of logging roads built, and i would like to know how random "camping" only, not quading or anything else just camping efects the fishing in the rivers??? The poeple who camp in the dutch creek area are very responsible rider and campers that keep thier composure and do not go rampid and ruine the enviorment!! Since ive been camping in the Dutch creek area i can go out a 10 at night and not hear a wuad or anything, just maybe a couple of laughs around the fire!!! I camp there because i live in calgary, and cant afford to drive to crows ever day, unlike some poeple who live close!!!! This area is still an amzing fishery, and i know campers and quaders that the more you try and stop the camping and quading the more they do, the area is still keeping its composure and the camping and quading, is doing minimal damage to the stream systems or the land, i have personal expieirience!! Maybe just a suggestion, if the "quad squad" built bridges or banned river crossings with quads all river damage , ( which is minimal) would be stopped!!

 

[Xplorer]

Hi rianbowhunter,

 

Since you quoted me, I guess I will respond to some of your questions.

 

" i would just like to know, how many of you people who are with banning camping and quading have ever camped over night , to go fish?? or ever camped in general"

 

I have camped/fished for the last 30+ years all over the eastern slopes, mostly in provincial campgrounds, some random camping about 20 years ago.I have been atving/camping for the last 15years. Nobody wants to ban camping, they just want something done about the squatters that leave there trailer in one random campsite for the entire summer. I think there needs to be rules about how long you can stay in one spot or at least enforce the rules that already exist.

 

" and when we quad, because i fish the river and love them i do my best to not corss them"

 

You stay out of the creeks as much as possible, that's great, but many people do not and even if there is a bridge, some go around just so they can drive in the creek. Alot of quadders are not fishermen and do not think about their impact.

 

"The small amount of damage that the quads do to the trail is minimal compared to the hundreds of logging roads built, and i would like to know how random "camping" only, not quading or anything else just camping efects the fishing in the rivers??? The poeple who camp in the dutch creek area are very responsible rider and campers that keep thier composure and do not go rampid and ruine the enviorment!!"

 

That may be for the Dutch creek area, I have not been there lately, but I have seen many other area's where that is not the case. I have seen area's where the creeks/rivers run like chocolate milk on weekends(especially long weekends) and clear after the weekend is over, due to stupid people running in the creeks/rivers.I do agree that on certain trails, atvs have a limited/manageable impact, but alot of people don't stay on trails or out of creeks or muskeg fields etc etc

The random camping thing really doesn't affect the fishing it is more of the squatter problem mentioned above, provided they don't dump waste in or close to the water.

 

" Maybe just a suggestion, if the "quad squad" built bridges or banned river crossings with quads all river damage , ( which is minimal) would be stopped!! "

 

The Quad Squad has no authority to ban anything, as far as the building of bridges, they are doing as many projects as they can, time and funding permiting.

 

" i have personal expieirience"

 

So do many of the people on this board. We are trying to make it so that there will still be something to experience 20-30 years from now.

 

The random camping and atv use may be ok in some areas, but I have seen so many areas from Rocky Mountain House to the Crowsnest pass that are just a mess and need something done now, not later.

 

Lance

 

Sorry Smitty, no letter or even a paragraph yet..... :$*%&:...do past letters count?

[fisher26]

Fact: The Livingstone Oldman area is within 2 hours of a city of over a million.

 

Fact: Alberta has a rapidly growing population.

 

Fact: A conservative laissez-faire government has been in for decades and will remain in office for years to come.

 

Enjoy the area while it lasts, but nice things are often temporary.

[Blaine]

"The fat pink slobs who go roaring over the landscape in these over-sized over-priced over-advertised mechanical mastodons are people too lazy to walk, too ignorant to saddle a horse, too cheap and clumsy to paddle a canoe. Like cattle or sheep, they travel in herds, scared to death of going anywhere alone, and they leave their sign and spoor all over the back country: Coors beer cans, Styrofoam cups, plastic spoons, balls of Kleenex, wads of toilet paper, spent cartridge shells, crushed gopher snakes, smashed sagebrush, broken trees, dead chipmunks, wounded deer, eroded trails, bullet-riddled petroglyphs, spray-painted signatures, vandalized Indian ruins, fouled-up waterholes, polluted springs and smoldering campfires piled with incombustible tinfoil, filter tips, broken bottles. Etc."

- Edward Abbey

 

It was as true then as it is now.

 

 

[ÜberFly]

Nice reference Blainer!!

 

His novel "The Monkey Wrench Gang"!! Classic! Started the modern "environmental movement" (or should I say, "eco-terrorism"!)! LOL

 

:clapping:

 

P

 

 

"The fat pink slobs who go roaring over the landscape in these over-sized over-priced over-advertised mechanical mastodons are people too lazy to walk, too ignorant to saddle a horse, too cheap and clumsy to paddle a canoe. Like cattle or sheep, they travel in herds, scared to death of going anywhere alone, and they leave their sign and spoor all over the back country: Coors beer cans, Styrofoam cups, plastic spoons, balls of Kleenex, wads of toilet paper, spent cartridge shells, crushed gopher snakes, smashed sagebrush, broken trees, dead chipmunks, wounded deer, eroded trails, bullet-riddled petroglyphs, spray-painted signatures, vandalized Indian ruins, fouled-up waterholes, polluted springs and smoldering campfires piled with incombustible tinfoil, filter tips, broken bottles. Etc."

- Edward Abbey

 

It was as true then as it is now.

[Taco]

Ah! Edward Abbey, now there a guy who put the curmudgeon into curmudgeonly. Thanks for the reminder, I gotta do some rereading and slick up my style.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

this is hypothetical right now but if i was to find a campsite that was not been attended for a few days is it them declared abandoned and if so can i go "shopping" at that site?