Quality Lakes Proposed

[DonAndersen]

Guys/Guys,

 

Sundance's request for a reduced harvest on Bill Allen pond seemed to strike a cord amongst a lot of anglers.

 

Some points you might like to consider:

 

* Change Put and Take designation to Catch and Gobble - how 'bout that for a great ring - now you have 2 designations C&R - C&G

 

* There is no trade off between those C&G Lakes and keeping people from breaking the law and keeping native stocks. Poachers are just that - Poachers.

 

* The angling public spoke loud and clear on wanting more Quality Lake Fisheries - see: http://srd.alberta.ca/fishwildlife/fishing...ts_Sept2008.pdf

 

*BUT you have to only look @ the SRD's site http://www.srd.alberta.ca/fishwildlife/fis...roundtable.aspx and read # 10 to know you've been BSed again.

 

* Trophy lakes are not be to confused with Quality Lakes. To this point there are NO TROPHY LAKES IN ALBERTA

 

* Quality lakes by the definition provided by SRD require 10% of the fish to exceed 50 cms. within 4 years. Beaver Lake & Bullshead Lake may have qualified as Quality Fisheries but are unlikely to qualify now. Police & Muir, with the overstocking done, may never reach the !0% benchmark. The only lake that might be close to the Quality Policy is Ironside Pond which is curiously a C&R regulation.

 

* There is one proposed lakes close to either Edmonton or Calgary. Where in the h*ll is Calgary Ring Road Pond?

 

And I could go on and on - but what's the point. Till we kick life into the Quality Lake Policy, we get what we get. After all, if we didn't like it like this we'd get off our butts and do something.

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

[kungfool]

Thanks for the update Don. I was wondering when some sort of result would be provided. I am puzzled that so few took part in the survey.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Thanks for the update Don. I was wondering when some sort of result would be provided. I am puzzled that so few took part in the survey.

 

Change is hard for everyone and while many complain...few actually try and effected meaniful well thought out change.

 

There is a strong sense of stock and kill...but I think stock and prolong harvest is also important. If we see the recreation value of the sport superior to the food value of the sport then there will be better fishing, more opportunities to hook up, and more overall general fun IMHO. Let's face it...we can't afford to spend all our government funding on stocking trout...we need some for other management uses such as population assessments etc.

 

There has been some push back about keeping the right to kill 5 trout a day in the stocked ponds but unfortunately these stocked ponds at the current limits get fished out within weeks in some instances and then where do people go? Also if you just want a good chance of catching something with your kids near Calgary...where do you go after those stocked lakes are fished out?

 

Maybe we need a pond with zero kill until Sept and then a 2 fish a day limit? Balances off some concerns on both sides. Maybe all stocked lakes should have their limit reduced to 2 from 5. With the cost of gas...if you want to eat stocked trout...it is cheaper at Superstore anyways.

[cdock]

With the cost of gas...if you want to eat stocked trout...it is cheaper at Superstore anyways.

 

That's like the billionith time I've heard that. So true.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

That's like the billionith time I've heard that. So true.

 

LOL

 

$1 per liter. Our van is probably 11 l/100 km. Drive to Chain Lakes for 10 -12 inch stocked rainbows...what about 300 km return. Equates to $27 for gas. Farm raise trout at Superstore...last visit...$4.75 per fish 10-12 inchers = 5.68 Superstore trout.

 

Cost to tax payer to raise a fish to 12 inches at Sam Livingston (wild guess based upon private hatchery prices)...~$3 / trout... How about we have two licences...one for catch and release and one for catch and gobble. The Catch and gobble will cost extra but you save on gas by just going to Sam Livingstone...show your licence and get discounted hatchery trout to take home and eat. Everyone wins

[Current]

LOL

 

$1 per liter. Our van is probably 11 l/100 km. Drive to Chain Lakes for 10 -12 inch stocked rainbows...what about 300 km return. Equates to $27 for gas. Farm raise trout at Superstore...last visit...$4.75 per fish 10-12 inchers = 5.68 Superstore trout.

 

Cost to tax payer to raise a fish to 12 inches at Sam Livingston (wild guess based upon private hatchery prices)...~$3 / trout... How about we have two licences...one for catch and release and one for catch and gobble. The Catch and gobble will cost extra but you save on gas by just going to Sam Livingstone...show your licence and get discounted hatchery trout to take home and eat. Everyone wins

 

Realistic idea. Some places have special retention licenses vs catch and release licenses!

[OneMoreLastCast]

Thanks Don for your help and input on my quest in my area.

 

As for the "Quality Lakes" issue, I think more people have to get involved to see what Don and his Support are facing. Sundance will find out as well if he continues with this, and I hope You are successful.

 

I think as a community, we have to focus and actually contribute, rather than just post your support on Boards like this. People with Conservation as a Priority and the hope to have Trophy Fishing are far out numbered by people that would rather put the fish in a frying pan. This majority attitude makes it near impossible to accomplish anything unless everyone that wants it actually involves themselves.

 

Filling out surveys is a start, but phone calls, letters, showing up to meetings, sweat equity and of course Financial Support is what is really needed.

 

My suggestion has been brought up in the past. Pick a couple of Potential Water bodies and focus on those until we get what we want. As I found out thanks to Mr. Anderson, trying to change the rules on an existing fishery is pretty much impossible.

Fiesta and Ironside had no fishery, so what Don did to create what they are now is fantastic and we need to help create more like them, instead of just taking advantage of other people's hard work.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only person that is sick and tired of having to drive out to BC to take advantage of "Quality Fishing" when there's no reason we shouldn't be able to have the same thing here in Alberta.

 

The more I work on getting changes, the more I respect what Don has accomplished and the more I get frustrated with people that want something, but aren't willing to put in a little sweat to get it.

 

Just my two cents and sorry if it comes off as aggressive. I just had the 6th door slammed in my face in just two days on pretty much exactly this topic....It's looking like it will be easier to move rather than try to get changes close to my home.

[DonAndersen]

MissinTheBow,

 

I appreciate your comments BUT there are a number examples of folks that have done yeoman work to create opportunities for all to enjoy a better fishery.

 

In no particular order:

 

Kent Butterfield of Stettler - Kerbes Pond

Tim Dostuch of Edmonton + the FESA team - Muir Lake

Bloom of Medicine Hat - Bullshead

Al Caldwell and Clive of the Lethbridge area - Police Outpost

 

Plus in the Rocky Mountain Area, I will add Warren Taylor of Gull Lake who humors my silliness, gives moral support, provides equipment at no charge, gets pissed @ the speed of change and lastly is always "on call" to service the best interests of the fishery.

 

The regional biologists and technicians of the SRD in the above areas

+ The ACA folks that place/remove the aeration equipment in some areas

 

And lastly, I'd really like to add some Calgary folks to the above list but..... still looking!!

 

 

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

 

 

 

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

MissinTheBow,

 

I appreciate your comments BUT there are a number examples of folks that have done yeoman work to create opportunities for all to enjoy a better fishery.

 

In no particular order:

 

Kent Butterfield of Stettler - Kerbes Pond

Tim Dostuch of Edmonton + the FESA team - Muir Lake

Bloom of Medicine Hat - Bullshead

Al Caldwell and Clive of the Lethbridge area - Police Outpost

 

Plus in the Rocky Mountain Area, I will add Warren Taylor of Gull Lake who humors my silliness, gives moral support, provides equipment at no charge, gets pissed @ the speed of change and lastly is always "on call" to service the best interests of the fishery.

 

The regional biologists and technicians of the SRD in the above areas

+ The ACA folks that place/remove the aeration equipment in some areas

 

And lastly, I'd really like to add some Calgary folks to the above list but..... still looking!!

 

 

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

 

Well then heck everyone...

 

Email Jim Stelfox and let's get the limit for Allen Bill Pond lowered to 2 fish from 5. It is a simple start and once fishing is shown to have a longer season (ie. trout still left)...then people will come around.

 

http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?...20&start=20

 

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

[OneMoreLastCast]

I agree 100% with both of you Don and Sundance.

 

Yes Don, the people mentioned have done a fantastic job and I commend them all. I hope to get together with Kent in the next while for a fish and a talk.

Sundance, I truly hope you can get something done and I'm more than happy to throw my hat in the ring to help you with your cause.

 

I was just trying to get the point across that too many people sit on the sidelines and cheer others on rather than jump in and get involved. It's also very difficult to fight a battle like the one you've chosen to fight with such a popular fishery. It might be more productive to find a body of water that noone cares for at present and create the fishery you are looking to create. I say this because of the recent experiences I've had fighting the people that can't figure out "Why we would bother fishing if we're just going to let them go....."

 

I've discovered that we are greatly outnumbered and it might be better to focus on more winnable battles.

 

I've taken my depth finder out on a number of fish free waters that have shown potential and I'm now waiting the results of water tests to see which might be worth moving forward.

 

I'll admit that I didn't do much when I lived in Calgary as far as helping to create Quality Lake fisheries, but it wasn't much of a topic back then. I spent a lot of wasted time in the end, fighting Irrigation and Storm runoff battles. With the number of interested people in the Calgary area there should be no problem getting enough support to get something done, but noone is stepping up.

 

Sundance, I truly hope your name gets added to the list of successful people listed by Don above.

[Sparkplug]

Some other possibilities in this regard:

 

- Sibbald Lake - perhaps with aeration, the true potential of this seemingly bio-rich lake could be realized?

 

- Aeration at Sparrows Egg to possibly address the winterkill risk?

 

- Has Marl Lake in Kananaskis (with aeration?) ever been considered as a fishery - seems to have similar biological characteristics to Sparrows Egg?

 

I don't know much about the state-of-the-art of aeration technology, but is wind-driven aeration a possibility so as to eliminate the need for electricity supply?

 

 

[Jayhad]

I don't know much about the state-of-the-art of aeration technology, but is wind-driven aeration a possibility so as to eliminate the need for electricity supply?

 

Yes, I don't know how it is done, but only because I havent looked into really. Up at Cheif Hector they just finished installing a wind driven aeration system.

[cuttbow]

Ya im involved in a project too. Alberta has no trophy lakes. Um im going all out for this one. Gonna make it a first.

[monger]

Parks won't allow Marl Lake to be stocked. They are protecting the "fragile" ecosystem around the lake from you riparian-mashing fishermen. Shame though because it is loaded with invertebrates. It might not be deep enough to make it through the winter anyway.

[reevesr1]

Shame though because it is loaded with invertebrates.

 

Who let lawyers up there?

 

[Neil Waugh]

The Quality Lakes Concept has gone from ad hoc lobbying by individual proponents (Clive and ADC's political batle for Polie Outpost being the classic) to an official SRD policy. With a firm commitment to have at least one quality trout fishery in every region of the province.

This in a large part because of the successful efforts of the Minister's Fisheries Roundtable. Of which I, Don, Gary ADC, Clive and others on this board are members.

But there are no participants from CALGARY - especially on the trout side.

To suddenly get on the "trophy lakes" bandwagon after a lot of the heavy lifting has been done is interesting indeed.

I don't want to pee in the pickles here, but it would have been nice to have a little help - or recognition - for what a lot of us accomplished on the Calgary-area's behalf.

While the Bow guys sat on their assets and did nothing.

 

[bigbowtrout]

But there are no participants from CALGARY - especially on the trout side.

 

 

 

I was there and I am from the Calgary area. I did feel out of place seeing that the majority of those there make a living off of our fishery and they have a lot to lose or gain from any changes brought forward. But hey it was very educational and I hope to attend more in the future.

Holding a round table or two in the Calgary area might help a little as well.

 

But really Neil what would it take to make you happy? Both you and Don complain that know one from the Calgary area gets involved then when a few start to show interest you *hit on them for piggybacking on others hard work.

 

PS what kind of recognition do you want? I could bake you cake or maybe buy you a nice trophy or something. Every time someone post about a milestone reached at a lake or a Streamwatch auction is held there is a ton of positive feedback giving to those who do the heavy lifting. Don, Clive, Al, Barry and many others are well respected on this forum and deservedly so.

 

 

Calgary Elitist Stalinist

 

 

 

[rusty]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the history of the regs on the Bow and who pushed to have them changed in the early '80s?

[reevesr1]

But really Neil what would it take to make you happy? Both you and Don complain that know one from the Calgary area gets involved then when a few start to show interest you *hit on them for piggybacking on others hard work.

 

PS what kind of recognition do you want? I could bake you cake or maybe buy you a nice trophy or something. Every time someone post about a milestone reached at a lake or a Streamwatch auction is held there is a ton of positive feedback giving to those who do the heavy lifting. Don, Clive, Al, Barry and many others are well respected on this forum and deservedly so.

 

 

Calgary Elitist Stalinist

 

Chris,

This could be my favorite reply ever on this board!! I need a new keyboard as this one is now covered in coffee.

[rusty]

If you want involvement from Calgary in the roundtable, start by holding a meeting here. Hard for us to feel "bought in" when despite the fact that we have well over a million people and the most heavily pressured water in the province, the meetings are all held in Edmonton (or Red Deer, if I recall correctly).

 

I really appreciate the hard work that a lot of folks are putting in, and I take every opportunity to support their efforts with my words or my dollars whenever I can. Taking potshots at us because we don't drive six hours return to attend meetings that aren't advertised at the shops, etc around here isn't helping much.

 

 

[Neil Waugh]

The reaction to my post is almost as funny as being cut-off and getting the finger from a Jerk in a Merc (substitute Audi or Escalade) on the Deerfoot.

Gary and the guys from the Pass seem to be able to make it. My southern Alberta geography might be a little sketchy, but isn't Blairmore another two hours down the road from Calgary?

By the way Gary has been like a pit bull without lipstick trying to get BC guides restricted from the Bow. A little tit-for-tat for what they did to us with the classified waters gouge in the East Koots.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

If you want involvement from Calgary in the roundtable, start by holding a meeting here. Hard for us to feel "bought in" when despite the fact that we have well over a million people and the most heavily pressured water in the province, the meetings are all held in Edmonton (or Red Deer, if I recall correctly).

 

I really appreciate the hard work that a lot of folks are putting in, and I take every opportunity to support their efforts with my words or my dollars whenever I can. Taking potshots at us because we don't drive six hours return to attend meetings that aren't advertised at the shops, etc around here isn't helping much.

 

At 7 pm on a weekday or on a weekend...would be great!

 

Please note we are talking about something different that were I was going. I see a need for "prolonged" harvest in many stocked lakes because they get vacuumed out immediately. Daddy with little Katy and little Billy go there to fish in August and are bored silly cause there are no trout period.

 

As for a quality lake in the area, Hector stands out to be the most common sencicle but unfortunately the natives always turn the aerator off so that they can ice fish while drinking beer. There are probably 1000 guys willing to pay $500 each or $50 a day to fish for 25 inchers during the travelling sedge hatch. If they managed that lake like a trophy lake/quality lake then $1 million a year in revenue is not out of the question. Can it sustain those numbers? Time will tell.

[rusty]

Let's hope that we're motivated by more than "tit-for-tat" and "what they did to us" when we decide how to manage our fishery. I fully support the EK regs and I know of plenty of other folks who do too. Maybe instead of bitching and moaning about BC, we should be looking at how they can produce so many fisheries that put ours to shame.

 

Neil, there will people who would find a way to attend if these meetings were held on the moon. However, many of us are not able to make that kind of commitment. Why not hold every other meeting here? Are you guys actively trying to get people to attend (not just in Calgary, but in Edmonton too)? Are you posting at fly/tackle shops (again, asking about province wide here)? How are the people who are showing up finding out about it? I'm asking honestly, because I know that Calgary's fishing community is loaded with people who have passion and time on their hands.

 

Looks like there are some really relevant issues being discussed in the notes, but every time I hear you guys bring up Calgary it's just fingerpointing about our lack of involvement. When you combine that with the fact that every single meeting is scheduled in Edmonton, what message does that send?

[jstelfox]

Don,

 

The efforts that you and others have put in over many years to preserve and improve the quality of fisheries in Alberta are much appreciated by a lot of anglers. Similarly, I anticipate that at some point in the near future, anglers will be appreciative of the efforts made by those who took the time to send an e-mail expressing support for reducing the bag limit at put-and-take fisheries like Allen Bill Pond. However, I want to make one thing clear, and that is that the objective of reducing the bag limits at put-and-take fisheries like Allen Bill Pond is not to create "Quality" fisheries, but rather to improve the quality of the fishery by prolonging the period during which acceptable catch rates are provided.

 

Regarding creating quality fisheries near Calgary, there are several that have been created by implementing regulation changes (e.g., Champion Lakes, Sparrow's Egg Lake, Rawson Lake, Rummel Lake, Smuts Lakes, Watridge Lake). Also, I received an e-mail yesterday from a member of this board inquiring about Cochrane Lake, which is located just west of Hwy 22 and north of Cochrane. This lake is relatively large and a portion of it was deepened by the developer before homes were built near it. If summer temperatures are not too high (e.g., <23 C) and adequate oxygen levels are present during the winter, or can be provided by aeration, then this might be an ideal candidate for developing into a Quality fishery. If any of you have information about Cochrane Lake, or whether there is public access to it, I would appreciate hearing from you.

 

One of the things in your e-mail which I must take exception with is the following.

 

* Trophy lakes are not be to confused with Quality Lakes. To this point there are NO TROPHY LAKES IN ALBERTA

 

* Quality lakes by the definition provided by SRD require 10% of the fish to exceed 50 cms. within 4 years. Beaver Lake & Bullshead Lake may have qualified as Quality Fisheries but are unlikely to qualify now. Police & Muir, with the overstocking done, may never reach the !0% benchmark. The only lake that might be close to the Quality Policy is Ironside Pond which is curiously a C&R regulation.

 

If it is true that there are NO TROPHY LAKES IN ALBERTA, then what would you call the fishery in Lower Kananaskis Lake, where the mean size of bull trout caught in recent years has been almost 60 cm (see attached creel data summary) and over 20% of the cutthroat/rainbow trout caught are >50 cm?

 

Regarding Round Table meetings (Rusty's post), we are planning to hold a Round Table meeting in Calgary this fall to obtain input from anglers and provide an opportunity to discuss proposed regulation changes.

 

Cheers,

Jim Stelfox

Senior Fisheries Biologist, Southern Rockies Area

Fish and Wildlife Division, Alberta Sustainable Resource Development

Box 1420, Room 228, 2nd floor, Provincial Building

Cochrane, Alberta, Canada T4C 1B4

Tel 403/851-2205, Fax 403/932-2158

Jim.Stelfox@gov.ab.ca

Lower_Kananaskis_Lake_Creel_data.pdf

[bloom]

Wow, don't know where to jump in.

 

Getting one of these lakes started is not the toughest thing to do. It takes time, people, but most importantly relationships. First get some backing behind you (ie. fly fishing clubs, fish and game, etc), and then approach fisheries in your area.

 

I just met with Terry this past April to discuss the Delayed Harvest ideas, and he was more than on board with the philosophy (my perception). The only reason another one didn't get established south of Brooks is that we could not find a suitable lake (I agree in the balance between delayed harvest, catch and release and catch and gobble...as someone so nicely coined it).

 

It seems the gov't is willing (at least in my area) and the people are willing, it just needs someone to get it going.

 

Now the reason why one isn't established in Calgary area, is that there may not be a suitable choice (ie. park lakes are a no no). Some of the other more dedicated stillwater fishers are involved in private lakes (I would be too if I lived close enough).

 

I know that when the regs for Bullshead were up for review a few years ago, we had great support from the Calgary guys who wrote letters and even drove down to attend the meeting.

 

Attending the round table meetings is not always the easiest for people (apathy is a huge part too...we finally ran one in Medicine Hat this year and 4 people showed up...all from our fly club). When I first started attending them in Lethbridge, it did seem a little like an 'old boys club' where the same people were invited over and over. Didn't even really know about them before, but don't miss one now.