Missed Takes

[headscan]

I've been thinking about fishing multiple nymphs under an indicator and the number of takes that I believe I might be missing. My thought is that most of us tend to fish a three nymph rig with the heaviest fly at the top with the lighter flies below it. Under an indicator I believe we're missing a lot of takes with this rig. Since the heavier fly is at the top, I'd think your rig would look something like this early in the drift (the Js are the flies in case it isn't obvious):

 

___O__________

|

|

|

|

| J

| /

| J

| /

J/

 

If your rig looks something like that and you get a take on one of the two lighter flies your indicator probably won't even twitch a little since the mono between the heavy fly and the other two will likely have slack. It's been a long time since I took a physics class and I don't remember hydrodynamics at all, so I may be totally off base with this thinking, but it makes sense to me. Any thoughts?

 

Edit: Argh. Looks like the forum software doesn't like my ASCII art. I'll try to do a drawing of what I mean and post it later.

[birchy]

Makes completely sense to me.

 

I keep going back to this article (been posted a few times before) when this topic comes up, because I think it's so stinkin cool!

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1000014389

 

Lesson 2 mentions: "Even the best anglers miss 50% of takes." So the way I see it.. I'm probably missing 90% or more.

[fishfreak]

Wow, that's an awesome article! I might try the pull up every few seconds method to see how many strikes I actually do miss. Some of their observations are quite surprising. I better remember those things the next time I'm out.

 

I've always wanted to try diving in a huge pool to see how fish react to nymphs and streamers. Oh the things people do in the name of "research."

[SanJuanWorm]

Thats cool birchy.

[gillmy]

Wow, that's an awesome article! I might try the pull up every few seconds method to see how many strikes I actually do miss. Some of their observations are quite surprising. I better remember those things the next time I'm out.

 

I've always wanted to try diving in a huge pool to see how fish react to nymphs and streamers. Oh the things people do in the name of "research."

That is a great article - you always wonder what's going on down there. Thanks for the post.

[SQUATCHER]

pretty cool. i liked the part about tippet size. maybe well see a decrease in snapped lines. although i like to fish liv just to replenish my box!!

[Guest JayVee]

...you always wonder what's going on down there. Thanks for the post.

 

I have a DVD called "The Underwater World of Trout" that gives good insight into what's going on down there. I highly recommend it.

 

[headscan]

Makes completely sense to me.

 

I keep going back to this article (been posted a few times before) when this topic comes up, because I think it's so stinkin cool!

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1000014389

 

Lesson 2 mentions: "Even the best anglers miss 50% of takes." So the way I see it.. I'm probably missing 90% or more.

Yeah, I've seen that article before and it's really cool. What I'm curious about is specifically with the two bottom flies drifting on totally slack line if you're missing much more than 50% of takes like closer to 100%. There are always going to be those subtle takes that won't move your indicator even if you're only fishing a single fly (Hey Dave, notice my correct use of your and you're there? Just for you). Everyone has those stories about going to lift their line to cast and suddenly the line is tight and it ain't bottom...

 

So here's something else to think about. Let's say you're fishing a pretty typical Bow river triple nymph rig for this time of year - SJW followed by a caddis larva with a tiny midge at the bottom. The caddis and midge are drifting loose and you're missing just about every take on the caddis. No takes at all on the midge, and the occasional take on the SJW that moves the indy. You land a couple that take the SJW but none that take the caddis. At this time of year you figure the midge has got to work but maybe not the red one you have on. The caddis on the other hand you think isn't producing at all. You change up your rig so now you have a SJW, prince, and a black midge instead of red. You've just removed the most productive fly you had on.

 

I'm just starting to wonder if the odds of fishing one nymph under an indicator at a time might not be the same as three. I think it'd be a tough theory to test properly unless someone has some scuba gear.

[misterbig]

very good article...

[vhawk12]

I find I have much better luck with just a single nymph on, but I've always thought it was just my technique!

[SQUATCHER]

really good point man. ive only ever fished a double rig. and i always keep my heavy fly on the bottom for that exact reason. my gramps told me this when i was 7, and he never had scuba gear. but he also laughed at my indicator, and said, "graphite....use bamboo boy!".

[Tungsten]

Pending on water speed but i like split on the bottom 6" up first fly tied on tag end of knot then 10-12""up second fly tied the same.Looks like a pickerel(sp) rig,no indicator needed fish by feel.But i probably miss lots too.

[Jayhad]

Headscan, this is interesting and I have thought about it a bit myself... I came to the conclusion that this is just the nature of the beast unless you want to rig up with the heaviest fly down, but then i find I get more snags, more snags = less time fishing therefore more missed "potential" takes. What is the better solution to this??? I don't know. Great topic for discusion though

[maxwell]

i think teh flies are on more of a angle.. think about most water on the bow is in the 4-6 foot range and we rig out flies 8-9feet fm corkie too first fly... so keep taht in mind.. no doubt there is water tension on the leader..... rigging you flies the opposite way would improve your odd making a tight line but your top 2 lighter flies might drift up off bottom... like jayhad said it is the nature of the beast and im sure most of us miss way more take before we even see a twich but there isnt much u can do about it when float fishing.....

[headscan]

Ok, here's a better diagram of what I'm talking about. My Adobe Illustrator skillz suck but it's all I've got.

 

I might try playing around and putting the heavy fly in the middle of the rig with the medium one at the top and the lightest at the bottom. I don't know that any of it will make a difference but hey, if you don't try you'll never know right?

[reevesr1]

Remember what is happening down there. There is no "strike" per se. The fish is flicking a fin to move from his lie, sucking in your nymph, and flicking the fin to go back. It will not move very far, and if it expends more energy than is in the food source (and a #18 nymph ain't got much protein) then it won't survive in the long run. So they are masters at conservation of energy. Also, fish sample at the top of their mouths. And they are very used to sucking in stuff that isn't food, like sticks, feathers, grass, whatever. So as soon as your nymph hits the fishes mouth, it knows it isn't food. But remember that they suck in their food. It takes around 2 seconds for the physiological process of completing the sucking in until he can blow it out. The thought that they can instantly push it out is incorrect. I takes a finite, if short, period of time. What does this mean to the nymph fisherman? Well, you aren't actually (or for most of us, not very often) striking on a "hit". Much more often, you are striking when the indi stops because your nymph is in the fishies mouth and the current has caused it to go tight. Want to know if you are setting the hook quick? Take a look at where he is hooked. Top of the mouth means quick hookset, the more you get toward the side, the slower you were. And you've got around two seconds from start to finish, or the fish spits the nymph.

 

Now, does it matter light/heavy nymphs and positioning? I personally would think it matters way more in slow water. Think of your rig drawn above. Unless you are lucky enough to see the gentle take of the bottom fly (those few, but satisfying times where the indi barely moves and your ninja like reflexes notices it and you strike) , you have to wait until the whole rig passes and the indi slows or goes under. There is a bit of extra delay because of the distance (1-2 ft max) from bottom fly to top. If the heavy fly was on bottom, then the lighter ones would still lead, but you would see the strike a little quicker (remember there is only 8-12" between flies, but up to 9' from the top fly to your indi-that 9' is way more important). In the summer, when fishing faster water, I think this matters way less. The speed of the current is completely your ally in this game. Faster current, faster indi reaction, more hookups per take.

 

I do have a question though-if the current is faster on surface than on bottom, wouldn't the indi lead? And if it does, wouldn't positioning matter less?

 

Whatever, next time I go out I'll try the heavy rig on bottom in the winter. I don't know why I haven't before as some pretty good fishermen recommend it.

 

note: The highly accomplished nymph fisherman, of which I am not yet a member, catches way more fish than the rest of us on the subtle take. They see that almost imperceptible bobble of the indi, an strike on it way more often than the rest of us. You REALLY have to pay attention and be in tune with your indicator to master this. I think that is why the really good fishermen kick our asses in the winter. The slower current demands close attention because it just takes too long for the system to tighten up in slow water. Fast water is a different matter, thankfully.

[birchy]

Remember what is happening down there. There is no "strike" per se. The fish is flicking a fin to move from his lie, sucking in your nymph, and flicking the fin to go back. It will not move very far, and if it expends more energy than is in the food source (and a #18 nymph ain't got much protein) then it won't survive in the long run. So they are masters at conservation of energy. Also, fish sample at the top of their mouths. And they are very used to sucking in stuff that isn't food, like sticks, feathers, grass, whatever. So as soon as your nymph hits the fishes mouth, it knows it isn't food. But remember that they suck in their food. It takes around 2 seconds for the physiological process of completing the sucking in until he can blow it out. The thought that they can instantly push it out is incorrect. I takes a finite, if short, period of time. What does this mean to the nymph fisherman? Well, you aren't actually (or for most of us, not very often) striking on a "hit". Much more often, you are striking when the indi stops because your nymph is in the fishies mouth and the current has caused it to go tight. Want to know if you are setting the hook quick? Take a look at where he is hooked. Top of the mouth means quick hookset, the more you get toward the side, the slower you were. And you've got around two seconds from start to finish, or the fish spits the nymph.

 

Now, does it matter light/heavy nymphs and positioning? I personally would think it matters way more in slow water. Think of your rig drawn above. Unless you are lucky enough to see the gentle take of the bottom fly (those few, but satisfying times where the indi barely moves and your ninja like reflexes notices it and you strike) , you have to wait until the whole rig passes and the indi slows or goes under. There is a bit of extra delay because of the distance (1-2 ft max) from bottom fly to top. If the heavy fly was on bottom, then the lighter ones would still lead, but you would see the strike a little quicker (remember there is only 8-12" between flies, but up to 9' from the top fly to your indi-that 9' is way more important). In the summer, when fishing faster water, I think this matters way less. The speed of the current is completely your ally in this game. Faster current, faster indi reaction, more hookups per take.

 

I do have a question though-if the current is faster on surface than on bottom, wouldn't the indi lead? And if it does, wouldn't positioning matter less?

 

Whatever, next time I go out I'll try the heavy rig on bottom in the winter. I don't know why I haven't before as some pretty good fishermen recommend it.

 

note: The highly accomplished nymph fisherman, of which I am not yet a member, catches way more fish than the rest of us on the subtle take. They see that almost imperceptible bobble of the indi, an strike on it way more often than the rest of us. You REALLY have to pay attention and be in tune with your indicator to master this. I think that is why the really good fishermen kick our asses in the winter. The slower current demands close attention because it just takes too long for the system to tighten up in slow water. Fast water is a different matter, thankfully.

 

So true! Got a chance to fish with MTB a couple times and man.. I was watching his indy when he struck on a few fish and I was like "what the duck?". Didn't even see it move..

[darrinhurst]

Makes completely sense to me.

 

I keep going back to this article (been posted a few times before) when this topic comes up, because I think it's so stinkin cool!

 

http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1000014389

 

Lesson 2 mentions: "Even the best anglers miss 50% of takes." So the way I see it.. I'm probably missing 90% or more.

Great read, thanks birchy

 

[mcampb]

I'm pretty new to fly-fishing and especially nymphing, I've searched through the forum a ton and this is one of the best threads I've seen. Tons of great info that helped me finally grasp some of the finer details of nymphing! Thanks dudes!

 

~Camfly~

[DonAndersen]

Guys/Gals,

 

Many years ago I was fishing Buffalo Ford on the Yellowstone. With a bottom composed mostly of small cobble and if you were not moving a lot, the cutthroat lined up in the wake of your waders. Sometimes there was upwards of a dozen lazily fining in the slack water. Well, the challenge was to catch one of them. With 18" of tippet in my hand and a cast as long as my arm would reach, I dropped the nymph into the swirl next to my waders. I watched fish after fish inhale the fly and spit it out faster than I could react. Finally caught one.

Lesson learned - we miss a pile of fish.

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

[headscan]

One thing I want to clarify - I'm not trying to say that there's a method to stop missing takes entirely. I'm just looking at ways to try to minimize missed takes. Getting the hookset and landing are also two entirely different things than what I'm looking at. Yeah, you're going to miss a ton no matter what, but why miss more than you have to?

 

Well, you aren't actually (or for most of us, not very often) striking on a "hit". Much more often, you are striking when the indi stops because your nymph is in the fishies mouth and the current has caused it to go tight.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. What happens when there is enough slack between your top fly and one of the bottom ones the fish actually takes that your indicator doesn't move before it exhales the fly? With shorter lengths of mono between flies this is less likely to happen. But when you fish your flies close together you risk foul hooking, wrapping the fish, etc. With longer lengths of mono between flies it's going to take longer for the current to pull that slack out. Time that you could have easily missed takes.

 

Now, does it matter light/heavy nymphs and positioning? I personally would think it matters way more in slow water. Think of your rig drawn above. Unless you are lucky enough to see the gentle take of the bottom fly (those few, but satisfying times where the indi barely moves and your ninja like reflexes notices it and you strike) , you have to wait until the whole rig passes and the indi slows or goes under. There is a bit of extra delay because of the distance (1-2 ft max) from bottom fly to top. If the heavy fly was on bottom, then the lighter ones would still lead, but you would see the strike a little quicker (remember there is only 8-12" between flies, but up to 9' from the top fly to your indi-that 9' is way more important). In the summer, when fishing faster water, I think this matters way less. The speed of the current is completely your ally in this game. Faster current, faster indi reaction, more hookups per take.

Yeah, the whole slow vs. fast water thing is exactly what got me thinking about this. I wouldn't have thought twice about it in the summer, but then I usually tend to fish faster current when it's warmer.

 

Whatever, next time I go out I'll try the heavy rig on bottom in the winter. I don't know why I haven't before as some pretty good fishermen recommend it.

I think sometimes we tend to get locked into certain methods, flies, spots, rigs, and so on because we caught fish that way before so why change? Then we stop catching fish and call it a slump, when maybe all we need to do is change one of those things. Maybe the triple nymph rig with the heavy fly on top is one of those things that needs to be changed occasionally. I think I read somewhere (maybe McLennan?) that if you aren't catching fish then change something - flies, presentation, or spots.

[maxwell]

just strike like a madd man and ur laughin!

[mkm]

I have been wondering lately if your indy also could have an effect on detecting strikes. What I mean by this is: I use a "thing-a-ma-bobber" (the air filled plastic indy. This things could hold up a small child. Although I feel like I catch my fair share of fish I wonder if I also miss alot of strikes because the indy is so buoyant? All the little strikes might not be detected. What do you guys think...should I use a less buoyant indy?

 

mike

[headscan]

With the thingamabobbers don't just look for it to go down. Watch for it to pause, twitch, or move any way other than with the current.

[PeasantoftheVise]

Hi All,

 

I have been reading this thread with lots of interest and have been mulling a few things over before jumping into the fray. I always fish a triple rig (heavy, light, lighter flies), and generally fish slower water (too lazy to do all that re-casting). So based on what has been said so far I should expect to only occassionally catch a fish on the last two flies and most of my hookups should be on the heavy first fly aka "the worm".

 

However, from personal experience this has not been the case.

 

Here are the results from yesterday, one fish caught on the lead fly, one on the 2nd fly, and two on the 3rd fly (with another brute lost that bent the 18 brassie 90 degrees).

 

In fact my experience this winter has been totally the opposite of the theory that is being bantered about. I have caught very few fish on the top fly (although I love it when the fish are keyed into the worm as hookup to landing ratios so up dramatically), and the majority of fish caught on the middle and bottom flies.

 

I am not too sure exactly what is going on with the flies as they drift through the slow water but my experience has been that fish will take all three flies and your indie will move enough to allow you to set the hook and catch fish even on the bottom two flies.