River Rage?

[duanec]

probably a topic that's been covered before here...but interesting posts thru the Bow River Shuttles newsletters this week that is something i have observed myself develop over the years, but in the last few years i believe it's gotten worse...

 

Quoting Rod H from the UK:

Guides, whom I know are trying to make a living and do pay to provide their services, should really take a good long look at themselves. On Wednesday 30th July along with my buddy we floated from Policeman's Flats to McKinnon during the first four miles of the river out of Policeman's there were eight guided parties parked in hot spots, no one else could get in to fish these area's, this does not lend to harmony on the river. Further on down the river just past the Highwood confluence there were another two parties parked in two sweet hot-spots, they had been there sometime and remained for a further hour in those spots, again this does not lend to harmony on the river.

 

i personally have run into similar rude and at times seemingly outright agressive behaviour from a few guides in the last few years, some of whom i recognize and can name.

is it just me, or is the hogging of the sweet spots and the pulling out right in front of you or crossing the river to work a run you are approaching before you get there type of thing becoming MUCH more commonplace?

 

now don't get me wrong, i do not intend to paint all guides with a single brush, some of the guides i've seen/used/know are extremely professional and are also advocates against this type of behaviour. and i also know that a number of the "problems" occur with other 'anyone can own a drift/pontoon/raft-types' like myself.

 

this is of course not a problem specific to the Bow, but i know that in some quarters where local guides have formed an actual association of sorts [and got regulations in place as far as who gets to guide by meeting some requirements and some sort of professional code of conduct or the like] the nature of issues like this improves [but of course there are other problems then ]...

 

i sincerely try to live by the 'do unto others' rule when i'm out there, either on shore or in my drift boat, and i screw up at times and crowd the guy around the corner i didn't see or get too close etc, but i always apologize and make an honest effort to learn from my mistakes, as the next time the roles could be reversed and it could be me having a boat criuse into the run i'm working....

 

anyone agree? disagree?

love to hear your comments, but i'd also like to hear any suggestions on what can/should be done to improve this in the future.

[SanJuanWorm]

I use that time as an opportunity to explore new water. At 3000 fish per KM on the bow there are plenty of spots. Now guides drifting through my spot as im on the shore fishing? That warrants a rock throwin *hit fit by me.

[bhurt]

I'm in a toss up over this.

 

Here are somethings I see.

 

1) If a guide or whoever gets to a "HOT-SPOT" before anyone else, why should they be penalized for this or force to move on? If I walk and waded to a place does that now mean I have a time limnit on where I can fish? If not why do I get special treatment and the guide gets the boot?

 

2) Some people have seen my reaction to idoits or bad guides on the river that float up beside meor do other stupid things. First I speak up, second if nothing happens I start throwing rocks all around the boat, please note I am not trying to hit the boat or anyone in it but if the boat is going to stop me from fishing well paybacks a bitch.

 

3) The only problem I see with forming an association is who is going to be in charged of it and who is going to enforce it?

 

Alot of these things are good and I agree with the basic princiapale of it, but what can be done to make it a reality, and what about the GOOD GUIDES that don't want to have change done and what to keep it the same way.

 

I don't know how many guides vist this board but this is something that should be brought up at TU meetings.

 

Just my 2 cents

[headscan]

If they're sitting in a spot for a long time the blame doesn't necessarily go to the guide. Any time I've been out with a guide they've asked me if I want to keep fishing a spot or move on. I find most of the guides on the Bow (at least that I've run into) to be pretty decent. Just last weekend a drift boat came around a blind corner to find me fishing. As soon as the guide saw me he asked his clients to put their lines on the other side of the boat, apologized to me, then did his best to go through with minimal disturbance to the run.

[toolman]

Fishing on the Bow during prime season is like driving on Deerfoot trail at rush hour on a Friday. Some folks have manners, some don't. Some are ignorant to the etiquette rules, others just don't care about anyone else but themselves. Having more rules and regs on the Bow is not the answer. We have much bigger problems on the Bow river, IMO, that can have devasting long term consequences. #1 on my list... POACHERS!

Lets get rid of those bass-turds.... R.A.P. The hotline #'s on the back of your license...

Please make the call!

Thanks...

ps. Sorry for the hijack...carry on. :derby racer:

[duanec]

1) If a guide or whoever gets to a "HOT-SPOT" before anyone else, why should they be penalized for this or force to move on? If I walk and waded to a place does that now mean I have a time limnit on where I can fish? If not why do I get special treatment and the guide gets the boot?

 

i don't disagree with that at all.

but i have been on some salmon pools that made the Deerfoot-like traffic [good analogy] look like a garden party. there i witnessed a zero tolerance policy for those that did not follow the 'etiquette rules' [newbies like my first time were treated a little more gently, but after being educated you could expect to virtually banished], and people still caught fish under those heavy traffic conditions.

 

i have run into issues with the pulling out right in front of you, or crossing the river

to work a run you are approaching before you get there, as well as the guys drifting into you while you are wading. again, i seem to hope that it wasn't intentional, but clearly there are people that just don't give a damn [see also poachers and the garbage spreaders].

i don't know if i want to start throwing rocks, nor be the recipient of any,

i have such poor aim...

[SKIDBITCH]

I am thinking Rod H from the UK needs to get out of bed earlier so that then he could be the first one to the sweet spots.

8 boats ahead of him is just to late in the day.

 

Have always thought that it was first come first serve when ever I have pulled over to fish a "sweet spot".

I always try to leave room behind me and be courteous others as much as possible.

There have been times when I have come around a corner and found an angler in a run. I have always apologized and felt guilty as I'm floating away.

I have also been cut off by other boats and still did well on the same bank they scooped me on.

 

Basically I think Rod H from the UK had a shitty day and had to let his frustrations out in the only venue he had available.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[OneMoreLastCast]

This topic has been discussed for decades on the Bow and Rivers like it.

 

Forming an association is comical in my opinion and as mentioned, who would oversee it and who would enforce any "Rules" They decide to put in place. The time and energy could be better put towards more important things affecting our waters.

 

I personally like to move around, but on occassion, I like to park my ass in a spot and fish every cycle thru-out the day, (and night if everything lines up). That's my perogative and noone has the right to tell me that I am required, or that it would be good "ettiquette", to move on.

 

If I happen to come upon people that are in the "Sweet Spot" that I was hoping to fish, I usually ask them if they are moving up or down, or if they've set up camp for awhile. If they plan on staying for awhile, I simply pick a spot usually within a KM of so an stake my claim. As Dave said, there's no shortage of fish in the river.

 

As for Guide Ettiquette with Drift Boats vs. W & W'rs....If a Boat accidently, (or Purposely), floats your run, I recommend waiting the 5 or so minutes it takes for the fish to return once the boat is gone.

 

The humorous part of this to me is that these so called "Sweet Spots" are the most known "Spots" on the River, so why on earth would anyone expect noone to be fishing them. They also see the most pressure, so if someone wants to set up for the day in one of these spots, go Nutz.

 

Think of it this way....If a Hole, run or section of a River has a Name, (ie-"Must Be Nice"), it's not a secret and you should expect someone to be there when you get there, or join you, if you are first to arrive.

[Tungsten]

august is always busy on the river you just have to plan ahead ,way back, when i owned a drift boat and it got busy we would stay in the middle of the river and float the speed of the river no rowing to slow down and we would catch lots of fish .like missin the bow says theres no way to police any rules ,time and effort better spent other ways .if you dont like to drive on deerfoot than dont drive on deerfoot my .02.

[nickt]

in my opinioni think it is ludacris to get annoyed at guides for tking all of the hot spots. they were there first, they earned it. here is my thinking, if it was not a guide at the hotspot it would be you. what makes you from being the jerk with the hot spot now? there is lots of water on the bow, and yes there is hot spots but the fish do reside all over the place andare catchable. besides everyone is always nagging about how there is no solitude out there, well explore other spots rather than prime locations and you will finally get that solitude. thats my 2 cents

[Castuserraticus]

"cross the river to fish a run you're approaching"

So what? Just because you're following a guide certainly does not mean they are going to clean a run out. Their clients could be complete newbs on a corporate junket. It's highly unlikely you will hit exactly the same lie, fish exactly the same pattern, or present it the same way. I've hit fish in runs that were just fished by someone else and I've had boats/waders pick up fish in water I just fished.

 

Many of the sweet spots are large. Ask the guide/other boat if there's room for you too. A friendly attitude might result in some valuable shared information. To paraphrase Henry Ford, "Whether you believe the other person is a friend or an ass, you will be right."

 

Now someone stepping within casting distance to fish the exact water you are - they're asses. But this has only happened once or twice to me.

[DonAndersen]

Guys,

 

Perhaps it is time to limit guide activity. Lots of states do not allow guides in certain areas and if I recall correctly @ certain times.

 

Two words work here - - - compensation and mitigation. How an I compensated for lost recreational fishing opportunity by a commercial operation on a recreational fishery and if he chooses not to compensate me, how does he intend to mitigate his actions so as not to effect my quality experience. After all, he is exploiting a public resource w/o compensating anyone. And don't feed me he pays taxes crap - if he worked @ McDonald's, he'd make about the same money and "guide" issue would cease to exist.

 

Don

[Castuserraticus]

...How an I compensated for lost recreational fishing opportunity by a commercial operation on a recreational fishery and if he chooses not to compensate me, how does he intend to mitigate his actions so as not to effect my quality experience. ...

 

Guides are often amongst the most vocal advocates for protection/management of the resource. Action that benefits their business benefits the resource for the recreational users. I believe Dave Jensen was instrumental in initiating the stream watch program in your region as an example.

[SanJuanWorm]

Bottom line here is.............they say there are 3000 fish per km on the bow. Go find new water?

 

Another thing, if I am in a run and im catching fish hand over fish, it would take the hand of god to get me out of that run.

 

 

No I am not a guide either.

[DonAndersen]

Guides are often amongst the most vocal advocates for protection/management of the resource. Action that benefits their business benefits the resource for the recreational users. I believe Dave Jensen was instrumental in initiating the stream watch program in your region as an example.

 

 

Cast...

 

Jensen assisted Barry Mitchell for a couple of years with Streamwatch. Barry and I had already formulated the concept.

Jensen also ran on and on calling me names when he was asked by me whether or not he would consider cleaning his clients gear to prevent WD, Mud Snails etc in Alberta I think after reading his ramblings that I finally concluded that he thought that the diseases were not an issue and he could care less.

Curiously, the Regional Biologist for the Alberta Govt [ now retired] had attempted to get the guides in this area to use disposable wading equipment for their foreign clients. He was stonewalled.

Yup - they care!!

 

Don

[bhurt]

Cast...

 

Jensen assisted Barry Mitchell for a couple of years with Streamwatch. Barry and I had already formulated the concept.

Jensen also ran on and on calling me names when he was asked by me whether or not he would consider cleaning his clients gear to prevent WD, Mud Snails etc in Alberta I think after reading his ramblings that I finally concluded that he thought that the diseases were not an issue and he could care less.

Curiously, the Regional Biologist for the Alberta Govt [ now retired] had attempted to get the guides in this area to use disposable wading equipment for their foreign clients. He was stonewalled.

Yup - they care!!

 

Don

 

Don,

 

From time to time I like reading your insightful posts but how can you classifie one guides actions with all guides.

I dunno if every guide outfits does anything to prevent WD but to have a grudge against one guding outfit then label them all that way without anything to back it up is just plain out right disgusting IMO, by the way I know of a couple of guides that make their forigen clients wash their waders and gear before coming into our rivers.

I think if you really wanna press this issuse its not just the guides that have to be mindful of this but everyone that goes to diffrent rivers, lakes, tribs, etc... You just don't know what type of contaminates (sp) might be in the water system.

[AndyW]

Guys,

 

Perhaps it is time to limit guide activity. Lots of states do not allow guides in certain areas and if I recall correctly @ certain times.

 

Two words work here - - - compensation and mitigation. How an I compensated for lost recreational fishing opportunity by a commercial operation on a recreational fishery and if he chooses not to compensate me, how does he intend to mitigate his actions so as not to effect my quality experience. After all, he is exploiting a public resource w/o compensating anyone. And don't feed me he pays taxes crap - if he worked @ McDonald's, he'd make about the same money and "guide" issue would cease to exist.

 

Don

 

With your rationale we should just charge NR anglers a "classified water fee", and make the guides buy from a limited pool of rod days... try to make it as inconvenient as possible for a NR angler to enjoy our public resource, and make the "guides" pony up for rod days... Looking at the floatilla of boats I saw on the Elk last week as I drove by on HWY #3 seems they have the same issues, but the recreational angler is the one who is punished in the end by having to shell out ALOT more money. Since the introduction of "compensation" as Don puts it tell me what has changed for the recreational angler in the Elk valley?

 

As with anything, you get out of it what you put in. If you don't like crowds just try to work around it. Get up earlier or stay out later...

 

But I guess this is not compensation or mitigation; you would have to do the mitigation!

[AndyW]

Cast...

 

Jensen assisted Barry Mitchell for a couple of years with Streamwatch. Barry and I had already formulated the concept.

Jensen also ran on and on calling me names when he was asked by me whether or not he would consider cleaning his clients gear to prevent WD, Mud Snails etc in Alberta I think after reading his ramblings that I finally concluded that he thought that the diseases were not an issue and he could care less.

Curiously, the Regional Biologist for the Alberta Govt [ now retired] had attempted to get the guides in this area to use disposable wading equipment for their foreign clients. He was stonewalled.

Yup - they care!!

 

Don

 

It is glaringly aparant that you are anti guide and anti NR angler with your posts!

 

How many signs does SRD have along the lower bow warning about whirling disease and how important it is to sanitize gear that has been in infected waters? I would think that something this important should start with SRD and a local TU chapter implementing something on local waters? Because you had a disagreement with Jensen has nothing to do about "them not caring".

[wingshooter]

I agree with Don. In the commercial sense if an oil company wants to cross your land you should and are compensated for the inconvinence and mitigated. If an oil company puts a facilty lease or pipeline on crown land they compensate the Crwon therefore the province of Alberta and it's people (Royalities). When have guides in the fishing industry ever put their money where their mouth was and compensate the people and sportsmen of Alberta........Never! End of story. As for the Whirling disease thing I would think the guide would take it upon themselves and make sure disease does not have an effect on their livelyhood. If I do recall the Jensens were in New Zealand....... what about all the "rock snot" they brought back to the Red Deer and the Ram????? It is possible if they don't take it upon themselves just a thought.

[AndyW]

Wow- comparing fishing guides to Oil companys. a wee bit of a stretch I think???

[Taco]

Both are makin' money from a provincially owned resource no? the difference being the resource the guides and outfitters are using is deemed renewable.

[DonAndersen]

bhurt,

 

I didn't single out Jensen, Castuserraticus did - Whoops. Am pleased that one or two commercial operations do take some responsibility for their clients

 

AndyW,

 

Not anti guide - just wondering how the owner of the public resource will feels when he's pushed out by commercial operators. There is a commercial canoe operation near Rocky that takes over a local lake displacing all who want to enjoy it. They don't compensate anyone either.

What is a NR?

 

 

Taeke,

 

I am aware of three users of public lands for commercial operations. Logging - pays stumpage, ranchers pay yearly rentals for grazing privileges on public land, Oil companies pay royalties - of the three , two are renewable resources.

 

regards all,

 

Don

[AndyW]

Don- easy to be "pushed out" as you put it by lots of other groups that are not fishing and definately are not commercial. I have had more negative experiences with canoists, kayakers and rafters on the bow than guides by a longshot.

 

Painting a guide on a C&R waterway with the same brush as ranchers grazing cattle on crown and the logging business, although technically they are all renewable, Floating a boat down a river and releasing your catch by far has the smallest environmental footprint. They are not even really comparable.

 

I just see it a too easy to point the finger at a commercial operator/guide for all the woes and pressure that some waterways experience.

 

BTW- I am NOT a guide, just bugs me a bit that the guy making a living (small one) gets the brunt of the blame for the woes of any particular waterway.

[Harps]

I agree with Don,

And overall I think guides need to be licensed, at a minimum, so we know how many there are. The fee would be the licence costs (commercial users in public lands have to pay for lease and use applications, why not guides?).

 

AndyW...

 

Painting a guide on a C&R waterway with the same brush as ranchers grazing cattle on crown and the logging business, although technically they are all renewable, Floating a boat down a river and releasing your catch by far has the smallest environmental footprint. They are not even really comparable.

 

How come some of the most fished areas are areas with loggers and ranchers?? The Bow, the Crow, Stauffer, the whole eastslopes... the resource industry and multi-use crown lands have kept the areas from being turned into housing developments. Its too bad we are now losing our ranchlands now. Complaints from those areas are most always about other anglers, whether poaching, litter, or lack of etiquette.

 

How many fish die from release? How many fish are mis-handled (I've seen lots, from guides and clients)? How much litter is left behind? How many of those clients go back later on their own... increasing crowding? And make no mistakes, you can keep fish with some guides> its not all floating down the Bow polietly releasing the occasional fish- Its hard hitting everyday, everywater with as many clients as possible> its how you make a living. If handling mortality is as low as 1%, How many guides, have how many clients, on how many waters?? How many dead fish that the public paid for and the guides got paid to fish?

 

Its about cumulative effects, and we now have too many people in Alberta using the same resources. Without some sort of limiting system, or a fund to maintain the resources, we are going to loose it.

[LynnF]

Back to the original question: I'm with Dave...find new water - the fish aren't just in those "sweet spots" if you believe the stats. To me, this need to rambo-fish - the need to catch fish at all costs just doesn't make sense. Why get all uptight about boat(s) sitting in the prime lies? Why do that to your day? Move on past and the prime lies are now yours to have. Go out there and enjoy yourself and take the pressure off about being able to score the #'s in the "good holes". Or, head out earlier than 9:30 primetime launch for the guides - then you can have the river all to yourself. We do it all the time - on the river by 6:30 a.m....get the great water and we're off before the sweltering heat slows the fishing down. Win/Win.

 

As for the etiquette thing - ignorance gets rewarded. We've met alot of different guides on the river, most of whom are very courteous and even very friendly. But there are a few that spoil it. Those ones get a word or two (or a rock if you're so inclined). There's absolutely no excuse for that, no matter what.