Separating The Bs From The Buckwheat

[DonAndersen]

Guys/Gals,

 

For the beginners out there, line weights expressed by the writing on the rod you are considering is what the manufacturer says it is. It is the best line weight for the rod? Maybe or maybe not!

The line weight is a starting point. From that starting point, it's up to you to determine what line weight works best for YOU. All the clap trap about overlining fracturing a rod is crap. What it will do is slow it down somewhat making your timing less critical.

 

Now you have to wonder how rod manufacturers determine line weight?

 

1] The rod suits the designer.

2] The rod line weight fills a market niche.

 

How do I know this. Unlike nearly all on this board, I build rods - from scratch [no I don't buy blanks and install parts and call myself a rod builder - the folks that do this are assemblers]. I determine line weight that suits me. It suits most but not all of my customers. Some will over and some underline my SUGGESTION.

 

But a suggestion it is. Your casting will determine the right line weight for YOU.

 

 

Got a friend who some years ago was complaining loudly about the 4wt. he'd bought. Damn thing wouldn't cast worth crap. He dropped the problem in my lap. Took out a set of reels [ got lines from 2>9 wt on reels] & starting playing with the rod. A 6 wt. finally got the thing performing correctly. Called him and he tried it out. He was amazed and asked what I'd done. When I explained the line weight increase, he was shocked that I would do such a horrid thing to his fishing pole. But he switched a 6 wt. Then he bought a 2 wt. Same problem - took a 5 weight line to make it perform correctly for ME. He tried it and again was surprised at the line weight increase required. But to this day, he refers to the rod as his 2 wt. although it hasn't had a 2 weight on it for years.

 

Be careful out there. Lot of BS about what line weights suit what rod.

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

[ÜberFly]

Great info Don! Thanks!

 

I have definitely heard about this before... Question (may be basic, but that's not a bad thing, now is it!!)... How does one determine whether their rod(s) is/are over/under weighted? Trial & error I suppose (and chucking a bunch of rod/line combos - may or may not be realistic), but is there any tell tale signs/symptoms, or hard and fast general rules to help one determine if their rods(s) are over/under weighted?! Especially newbie/beginner/intermediate fly anglers...

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[DonAndersen]

Peter,

 

When I'm looking for a rod, I first determine what size of flies I'm going to cast with it and the type of fishing to be done which determines line weight & rod length. Then I head off to the fly shop with the line of that weight and cast some fishing poles till I find one the suits ME. One big advantage I've got, I can and do rip the crap guides/reel seat/handle off crappy looking/poorly made rods and replace them with better quality parts. So, price is not a limiting factor. The cheapie might cast better for me that the more expensive rod. Casting [and ultimately fishing] is the only determining factor.

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

[ÜberFly]

Peter,

 

When I'm looking for a rod, I first determine what size of flies I'm going to cast with it and the type of fishing to be done which determines line weight & rod length. Then I head off to the fly shop with the line of that weight and cast some fishing poles till I find one the suits ME. One big advantage I've got, I can and do rip the crap guides/reel seat/handle off crappy looking/poorly made rods and replace them with better quality parts. So, price is not a limiting factor. The cheapie might cast better for me that the more expensive rod. Casting [and ultimately fishing] is the only determining factor.

 

catch ya'

Don

 

Thanks Don...

 

What about "ex post facto"?

 

P

[TimD]

Peter,

 

I think the weight ratings on rods for a number of manufacturers a guess at best. A rod that may be a fast action 6wt could have a medium action when casting an 8. I have a 6wt that has no problem tossing 8wt lines until the casts get over 60'.

 

The first thing to do would be to move the rod back and forth over your head without line on it to get a feel for how it bends without weight. Then use about 30' of line and make a normal back cast. The rod should load (bend down from straight) and then unload (bend up from straight) when you make the stop (1 O'clock).

 

If the rod does not load and unload then you may be using a fast rod and you will have to accelerate your arm faster and stop quicker to get the rod to load and unload. If that does not work then your rod is probably under-lined and you should try a heavier line. If you don't have one ask a buddy or go to a fly shop that you know - they probably have some loaners.

 

If the rod loads but does not unload, you may have a situation where the rod is overlined. Try lighter lines until the rod acts properly.

 

 

The feeling of a rod loading and unloading is hard to describe but not too hard to feel. As you make your backcast, the rod bends towards the line storing potential energy. When the casting stop happens it transfers that energy into motion and the line accelerates behind you as the rod flips positions from being bent down to being bent towards where the line is going.

 

Regards,

 

Tim

[ÜberFly]

Peter,

 

I think the weight ratings on rods for a number of manufacturers a guess at best. A rod that may be a fast action 6wt could have a medium action when casting an 8. I have a 6wt that has no problem tossing 8wt lines until the casts get over 60'.

 

The first thing to do would be to move the rod back and forth over your head without line on it to get a feel for how it bends without weight. Then use about 30' of line and make a normal back cast. The rod should load (bend down from straight) and then unload (bend up from straight) when you make the stop (1 O'clock).

 

If the rod does not load and unload then you may be using a fast rod and you will have to accelerate your arm faster and stop quicker to get the rod to load and unload. If that does not work then your rod is probably under-lined and you should try a heavier line. If you don't have one ask a buddy or go to a fly shop that you know - they probably have some loaners.

 

If the rod loads but does not unload, you may have a situation where the rod is overlined. Try lighter lines until the rod acts properly.

The feeling of a rod loading and unloading is hard to describe but not too hard to feel. As you make your backcast, the rod bends towards the line storing potential energy. When the casting stop happens it transfers that energy into motion and the line accelerates behind you as the rod flips positions from being bent down to being bent towards where the line is going.

 

Regards,

 

Tim

 

Thanks for the descriptions Tim!

 

Cheers!

 

Peter

[DonAndersen]

Tim,

 

I frankly perplexed by 2 of your comments.

 

1] Graphite rods don't have swing weight to bend them any appreciable amount w/o a line. Twitched them every which way and I can't seem to tell a lot other than they are stiff. If someone wants to see the slope of the rod, place the tip against a solid object and place a bend into the rod. You can often tell where the designer put the "meat".

 

2] Rods load the same whether or not you fore cast or back cast.

 

Don

[albannachxcuileag]

Don,

 

excellent post dispelling the mysteries of rod weighting!

 

I bought a rod with the makers recommendation of 5/6 so I bought a 6 weight floater thinking that this would match the rod - no way! Went up to a 7 weight and found that this loaded the rod perfectly for me. As you say, try before you buy and avoid disappointment.

[troutlover]

I took a casting class at the show a couple years ago and chris sepio touched on this also about chooosing a line that works for you not what the rod says. I agree. I cast with a 6wt line on my 4wt rod.

[regdunlop]

Unlike nearly all on this board, I build rods - from scratch [no I don't buy blanks and install parts and call myself a rod builder - the folks that do this are assemblers]. I determine line weight that suits me. It suits most but not all of my customers. Some will over and some underline my SUGGESTION.

 

Don,

I recently took up rod building er "assembling". I'm interested in hearing how you build rods from scratch. Aside from bamboo of course.

Thanks

[DonAndersen]

Reg,

 

As far as I'm aware there have been few folks try rolling their own tubular rods. The cost of the mandrels is quite high. The scrim is tough to get. As far as I know, the only person that I can think of that built a tubular rod was Don Phillips who wrote the Technology of Fly Rods. He made boron rods. I talked to Don and he said that he'd only built a few. Mind you, that was some years ago. Russ Peak also built rods from his own design. I have no idea whether or not he just supplied the design and others translated that to finished blanks or whether or not he rolled his own.

Did a net search and found this: http://www.westfly.com/feature-article/old.../feature_14.htm

I only build cane rods presently. Got a bunch of Orvis, Fisher, Winstons around here somewhere. Haven't used them in years. Got a St. Croix a few years back that hasn't seen a line more than 1/2 dozen times. Guess I'm a grass type of guy.

 

regards,

 

 

Don

[ladystrange]

very interesting information Don. Thanks. i have an 8wt that i have a few issues with. someon sugessted playing with the line wt. it isnt high on the priority list currently but at least i know what to look for

[hydropsyche]

Don. What do you think about the Common Cents System?

 

Executive summary: Use a bag of pennies to meaure how much it bends and where.

 

Sounds like once you know what type of rod you like, you can use this system to find a similar rod regardless of the manufacturer. Do you think a person could use this system to learn which type of rod loaded with a certain weight line would work for them?

[adc]

Don here's an observation..........Seems to me that with graphite at least, (I know nothing about fish grass) the higher modulus graphites---read faster, stiffer, whatever--often don't load with the recommended line........Line weight seems to be determined, by the rodmakers at least, more by the diameter and weight of the rod rather than the action..........I assemble rods (I built them until today when I read your post) and I find that with the softer rods the recommended line weight is sometimes correct and sometimes too heavy wheras with the quicker ones the recommeded line is usually too light to load the rod properly---or at least the way I like it..........Whatcha think??

[CDone]

How do I know this. Unlike nearly all on this board, I build rods - from scratch [no I don't buy blanks and install parts and call myself a rod builder - the folks that do this are assemblers].

 

Don, I take offense to this comment. Are you setting yourself above others all high and mighty? I'm a rod builder, I build rods not assemble them, just because I use pre-rolled blanks does not mean I'm less a craftsman than you. I take the time to form grips, turn reel seats, make winding checks and hook keepers, feather inlays, decorative wraps, ect.

 

Good for you keeping an archaic form of rod building alive, but Ive seen the future and I'm comfortable where I am.

 

Colin

[DonAndersen]

Al,

 

Graphite scrims come in various tensile strengths from 400,000>700,000 psi. Then depending on scrim design with the incorporation of fiberglass for hoop strength, pattern dimensions, scrim thread orientation, + the various construction operations, the design of a decent casting graphite rod is one tough cookie. I know I wouldn't want to try it. There are so many variables. Further, the scrim itself was changing driven by the aerospace industry. Just when you had a scrim you liked, along came the manufacturer of the scrim and discontinued the line. The aircraft industry drives the graphite industry. Just imagine how many graphite fishing poles that could be built out of a F117.

From early 1970's to present, the graphite rod guys have had a moving target to shoot at. At the same time, they were attempting to grab market share. Hence they also were exploring the how's and why's of graphite technology. That's the primary reason why some graphite rods are junk and others not.

Plus graphite has some interesting design problems. In order to make the blank cast light weight lines, the OD of the tip had to get progressively thinner. This resulted in a lot of breakage. For example, a tip top of 3.5/64 = 0.047" OD. Now subtract a mandrel of perhaps 0.015" leaving you with a layer of graphite of 0.032" thick divided between each side equals 0.016". The builders of the blanks, in some part, can get around this by increasing the tip OD and shaving the amount of graphite further down the rod.

 

To sum up Al, I haven't a clue. There are so many variables to making a decent graphite rod.

 

regards,

 

 

Don

[DonAndersen]

CDone,

 

Perhaps the way to deal with assembly vs builder is to look @ my personal experience. I assembled my first fiberglass rod in 1969. Bought the parts on Friday and was fishing it Sunday. Total time about 4 hours. Blank, handle, guides & reel seat were premade. I supplied glue, varnish, a Campbell soup box to hold the rod while wrapping, a tea cup to hold the thread, a dictionary as a thread tensioner and some masking tape. Total tooling about $2.00. Instructions were provided on a single sheet of 8.5*11 paper.

I started acquiring the equipment for build cane blanks from scratch in 1978. That took 3 years while I got forms, the dipping tank, binder, sharpening system, workshop built, tempering oven constructed and on and on. Total tooling about $5,000. Then I purchased a lathe and milling machine. Whoops, there goes another $15,000. And then I got the parts needed like cane, cork rings, ferrules, guides, wood inserts, threads, nickel silver round stock for reel seats and on and on. Damn this is getting expensive @ another $5,000.

And then to start. First to chose a taper and translate into a blank. Then to understand what the taper was designed to do. Well, that took about another 28 years so far and it's done yet. And after all of the $'s outlay, I finally got a single bamboo rod that I fished once and bust it over my knee as it was crap. Only took another 10 or so years to have some understanding of tapers so I could get close to what a decent fishing rod is all about. Of course, all the while that the taper learning was going on, I was increasing my skills in construction, experimenting with glues, oven tempering temperatures and the like. To sum up, takes about 50>70 hours to make a cane fishing rod - I can crank out a graphite in about 4>5 hours while watching TV.

 

While I realize that I'm building rods whose construction techniques by in large haven't changed a lot in the past 100 years, I get a kick outta the travels and learning. Further, there are more cane rod builders out there now that there ever was.

 

Putting fancy thread wraps etc on some ones else's idea of a decent fishing pole is similar to painting flames on a 56 Chev. Really makes it go faster.

 

Don

[Jimbo]

This is a good discussion. I agree with Don, that the only thing that matters is how the rod casts with a line on it. You can tell almost nothing about the performance of a rod by waving it around without a line attached to it. A good analogy: judging a fly rod without a line is like judging a guitar without the strings - you're only looking at half of the tool.

 

The only thing I would add is to be careful when somebody generalizes about "all graphite rods" or "all Sage/Orvis/Loomis etc. rods" and says "all graphite rods cast better when you overline them (or underline) them by one line size." Only the caster can make that decision and it will not be the same with all rods. Moral here? Cast the rod before deciding if you like it!

 

When I was working in the fly shop, many years ago Orvis brought out a nine-foot - 4-weight, three-piece rod called the Zephyr. When you picked it up off the rack and waved it around in the shop, it felt long, slow, and noodly. When you put a line on it it became precise, elegant and beautiful. People hated this rod because of the way it felt in the shop, and nobody ever bought one.

 

Jim

[SilverDoctor]

Thanks for the insightful comments Don. The best I have heard in a long time. Through the years I've always played with line weights to the point of often cutting heads to achieve the right weight/length ratios. This tuning can result in exacting line rod matches. Often using a grain scale to keep the line weight right. You're right in saying that often times rods will perform with heavier or lighter lines than rated by the manufacturer. I love to experiment with lines, I've found that sometimes even two people with different casting styles will need different lines. So to as you mentioned other factors in the mix will include size and weight of flies. and also I might mention leader weight and length. Experimentation is the key.

 

I've put together several graphite rod blanks for myself to to suit my own sensibilities and needs but have never looked at myself as a builder but rather as a "dresser" Just as I dress flies, I don't make the hooks. I hope to pick up another split cane by this fall to haunt northern waters. For those of you who have never fished bamboo, it has a life all it's own, a well built split cane rod has comes alive in the hand is a joy to the eye. I admire a nicely assembled rod... but building in bamboo as Don does is an artform. It is in my mind placed far above wrapping cork and silk around a tube. I tip my hat to you Don, for making rods with inner spirit.

 

"A well-made split cane rod is a wonderfully sensitive instrument, a thing of beauty and value even apart from its performance." -Roderick Haig-Brown

[Taco]

Interestin' thread but one observation from someone with a sunburnt neck.... wouldn't the simple solution of matching lines to a given taper.... change your casting stroke. I do it all the time because I fish everything from ultra slow to ultra fast rods. I spend way more time worrying about how a rod balances in my hand.

[TimD]

Tim,

 

I frankly perplexed by 2 of your comments.

 

1] Graphite rods don't have swing weight to bend them any appreciable amount w/o a line. Twitched them every which way and I can't seem to tell a lot other than they are stiff. If someone wants to see the slope of the rod, place the tip against a solid object and place a bend into the rod. You can often tell where the designer put the "meat".

 

2] Rods load the same whether or not you fore cast or back cast.

 

Don

 

Hey Don,

 

The main reason I brought up (1) is that it is important to get a feel for the rod as it moves without load and then how it feels different when it is loaded. The idea would to develop feel for loading and unloading. There would be other ways like listening to the rod/line, watching how the line casts (rolls out) and seeing how the line lands. I can feel a real snap with my faster rods and a release (almost forceless/weightless) feeling when the slower rods unload.

 

(2) Yes they do but, they almost always load when a rod is overlined but they don't unload like they do when they are properly lined. When I put a 8wt line on my 6 rod, the rod really starts to complain as the casts get longer. The rhythm of the unload slows down and I can tell the rod has had enough.

 

Regards,

 

Tim

[walker1]

Well, I built a house 5 years ago.... wait a minute.... Beattie homes(junk) did. I just signed the cheque.

[DonAndersen]

Taco,

 

I adjust as well to most rods. Think it may be a function of getting close to "overthehill".

 

Silver Doctor,

 

My head won't take it. Bamboo building is a craft. No artsy stuff involved. Just a lot of repetitive grunt work, lots of thinking and a sack of doing. You should watch a good machinist if you get a chance. Now there is art!

 

Curiously, a lot of cane guys I know are real anal. Dentists, surgeons, airline pilots, engineers and the like. They don't mistakes or folks die.

 

catch ya'

 

Don

[ÜberFly]

Taco,

 

I adjust as well to most rods. Think it may be a function of getting close to "overthehill".

 

Silver Doctor,

 

My head won't take it. Bamboo building is a craft. No artsy stuff involved. Just a lot of repetitive grunt work, lots of thinking and a sack of doing. You should watch a good machinist if you get a chance. Now there is art!

 

Curiously, a lot of cane guys I know are real anal. Dentists, surgeons, airline pilots, engineers and the like. They don't mistakes or folks die.

 

catch ya'

 

Don

 

They all have a high prevalence of "A D D", as well (I used to sell A D D meds)

 

P

[adc]

When I was working in the fly shop, many years ago Orvis brought out a nine-foot - 4-weight, three-piece rod called the Zephyr. When you picked it up off the rack and waved it around in the shop, it felt long, slow, and noodly. When you put a line on it it became precise, elegant and beautiful. People hated this rod because of the way it felt in the shop, and nobody ever bought one.

 

Jim

 

Jim, the first rod I built---er, assembled---was a 2pc. Orvis Spring Creek 9'3" that I bought from you and got your advice on how to assemble it when your shop was down on Richmond Road----probably about 1980.......It was a noodly, soft, slow rod and it was the rod that really taught me how to flycast........I used that rod and nothing else for years throwing everything from tiny drys to big weighted streamers.........Cast like a dream and although I seldom use it anymore----it became a 8'9" when I broke the tip off and had to re-wrap it---I still prefer softer rods to the ultra quicks that seem to be the norm now........As Taco pointed out, you adjust your casting stroke to the rod and they all work fine---really just a matter of preference........

 

Al.....