Fair Trade Flies

[Neil Waugh]

Much is made by the trendy leftie crowd about carbon footprints, fair trade coffee and dolphin-friendly tuna, but what about "fair trade flies"?

For those of us who tie our own it's not an issue. But the others who don't, usually buy them from the bins in fly shops, big box stores or chains.

These flies apparently aren't tied by grumpy old geezers in their Bowness basements but in giant Third World sweatshops largely by ladies trying to feed their families.

Kenya for some reason appears to have cornered the market.

So are these women getting fair wages for their efforts? Or are they being exploited so anglers can have cheap (well sorta) flies and the fly shops, chains, etc. can maintain hefty profit margins?

Should there be "Fair Trade Flies" stickers on fly bins just like there are at latte shops? Or is it a case of what you don't know won't hurt you?

The same question should be asked about off-shore rods.

[canadensis]

Much is made by the trendy leftie crowd about carbon footprints, fair trade coffee and dolphin-friendly tuna, but what about "fair trade flies"?

For those of us who tie our own it's not an issue. But the others who don't, usually buy them from the bins in fly shops, big box stores or chains.

These flies apparently aren't tied by grumpy old geezers in their Bowness basements but in giant Third World sweatshops largely by ladies trying to feed their families.

Kenya for some reason appears to have cornered the market.

So are these women getting fair wages for their efforts? Or are they being exploited so anglers can have cheap (well sorta) flies and the fly shops, chains, etc. can maintain hefty profit margins?

Should there be "Fair Trade Flies" stickers on fly bins just like there are at latte shops? Or is it a case of what you don't know won't hurt you?

The same question should be asked about off-shore rods.

 

What about 99% of my clothes, shoes, all the small electrical appliances and devices in my home, etc, etc, etc?

 

If the lady in Kenya that ties my flies was unemployed then how would she feed her family?

 

Fair trade in Latte shops is just slick marketing to make the left wing eco weiners feel good when they pay $5 for a coffee, nothing more. Where do they think thier ipods and iphones are made, do you think all this stuff is "fair trade"

 

My guess is a fair trade fly with said sticker and all would probably cost the same- $5

[Neil Waugh]

Just randomly Googling around and I can across a website called www.kenyaflies.com. Where you can buy a #16 Parachute Adams for 48 cents CAD.

Minimum order $35 and cheaper for big bulk buys.

The same fly goes for $1.89 on the Russell Sports website. You get a three-pack deal for $3.99 at Bass Pro.

I don't mean to single these two out but most of the Calgary indie flyshops don't post individual fly prices but I suspect they're in the same range. Maybe more expensive.

If you take Russell's as the median price then that's something like a 390% mark-up. Sure there's duty and GST built in but still, that ain't bad.

Assuming the jobber in Nairobi is also taking a hefty cut (would 50% be too unreasonable?) that means Barack Obama's auntie is probably clearing in the zone of 24 cents a fly. She may or may not be buying her own materials on top of that. I'm not sure how the deal works.

So again I raise the question, is this Fair Trade?

 

[DonAndersen]

Neil,

 

Dan Bailey of Livingstone MT for years employed workers [ mostly female] to tie flies in his main street sweat shop. When the off-shore stuff got cheaper, the Livingstone sweat shop disappeared.

Similarly, Winston Rods for some years farmed out thier wrapping serives to local ladies on a piece work basis. Apparently Wistons is now moving some of thier rod construction overseas. Bet ya' a buck, the work is not going to any G7 country.

Up to the mid-70's, I could make more from my fly vise than working full time in the Oil Industry. Not any more. Done in by off-shore suppliers.

Still, there are those that do make all or part of thier income from tying. They just charge what the flies are worth.

 

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

 

 

 

[Smitty]

Neil:

 

Just a quick economics lesson; its not about xxx% mark-up, which, in triple digits, can seen as outrageous, gouging etc.

 

Its about profit margin. As in, why don't you let Russells factor in their overhead, expenses, staffing, lease, etc etc.

 

Shouldn't go there unless you are prepared to calculate all the accounting, rather than a distorted picture.

 

Now you'll lecture me on not addressing your question. Here's my reply;

 

Nike was cited once as being a corporate 'evil doer' in terms of using 3rd world labor. Behind the scenes though, is how people's income relate to the cost of living for their own country. 24 cents would seem outrageous to us, but how much is she making per week? Is she above or below the national income? Does it allow her to feed her family and live better than her peers?

 

Folks in China that worked for Nike were found to have slightly above average living standards and enabled them to afford "luxuries" (bikes for transportation, as an example) that other families weren't.

 

So what's the deal with the eco-weenie obsession? You tell me. All I know that people can whine and complain while wallowing in their hypocrisy (pretending to be advocates of the poor oppressed people in the 3rd world while reaping the benefits of low cost consumerism).

 

Bottom line for me? If the workers are treated fairly and paid a decent wage compared to the country's standard of living, I have no problem with corporations that use cheap labor. Keeps costs low, and frankly I'm keeping it real here folks. Companies are always going to be attracted and migrate to areas where cheap labor - which account for the majority of expenses - exists.

 

Fair trade as it relates to laws, and regulations, and the WTO are a larger issue of course, in that sense, one could say 3rd world countries have been exploited for decades because of the lack of a level playing field, subsidies paid by the rich countries, tariffs etc.

 

Smitty

[canadensis]

Here is a great video that explains why the whole off shore/outsourcing to poorer nations is good for us;

 

Video Here

 

I am even considering outsourcing my job.

[wongrs]

Fair trade in Latte shops is just slick marketing to make the left wing eco weiners feel good when they pay $5 for a coffee, nothing more. Where do they think thier ipods and iphones are made, do you think all this stuff is "fair trade"

 

A product that is certified as "Fair Trade" means that a minimum amount of money is paid to the workers who've made that product. In the case of coffee bean or cocoa bean farmers, that means that they get a fair consistent price for their product rather than depending on the world market fluctuations. Same goes for cotton or any artisan products. Canadian beef and pork farmers can relate as their livelihoods are also tied to spot market prices. Fair trade creates a market for goods that are made using environmentally and socially responsible practices. There is a market demand for fair trade which is why you are seeing it more often.

 

It's a personal choice and it's not for everybody. Either you like supporting people who are in a worse spot than you or you don't. Some people care about how the workers were treated to make the goods that they are buying and some people don't.

 

Labeling people who are trying to help out those less fortunate as an 'eco-weenie' is something I don't understand. Would you put the label 'eco-weenie' on someone who donates money to cancer charities or is involved in a streamside weed pull?

 

There are lots of resources out there to learn about fair trade. Just have to ask google.

[SilverDoctor]

Then of course there are crusty, miserable, hard to get along with, grumpy old geezers like me who do OK on the side tying small numbers (only in the hundreds) of "custom" flies for a number of select clients in Can and the US. Mind you most of my clients have been with me for many years and have special requirements for flies that work in their local conditions and don't fall apart after the second cast. But then my product sells for more than a buck a fly.

[Parry]

Neil:

 

Just a quick economics lesson; its not about xxx% mark-up, which, in triple digits, can seen as outrageous, gouging etc.

 

Its about profit margin. As in, why don't you let Russells factor in their overhead, expenses, staffing, lease, etc etc.

 

Shouldn't go there unless you are prepared to calculate all the accounting, rather than a distorted picture.

 

Now you'll lecture me on not addressing your question. Here's my reply;

 

Nike was cited once as being a corporate 'evil doer' in terms of using 3rd world labor. Behind the scenes though, is how people's income relate to the cost of living for their own country. 24 cents would seem outrageous to us, but how much is she making per week? Is she above or below the national income? Does it allow her to feed her family and live better than her peers?

 

Folks in China that worked for Nike were found to have slightly above average living standards and enabled them to afford "luxuries" (bikes for transportation, as an example) that other families weren't.

 

So what's the deal with the eco-weenie obsession? You tell me. All I know that people can whine and complain while wallowing in their hypocrisy (pretending to be advocates of the poor oppressed people in the 3rd world while reaping the benefits of low cost consumerism).

 

Bottom line for me? If the workers are treated fairly and paid a decent wage compared to the country's standard of living, I have no problem with corporations that use cheap labor. Keeps costs low, and frankly I'm keeping it real here folks. Companies are always going to be attracted and migrate to areas where cheap labor - which account for the majority of expenses - exists.

 

Fair trade as it relates to laws, and regulations, and the WTO are a larger issue of course, in that sense, one could say 3rd world countries have been exploited for decades because of the lack of a level playing field, subsidies paid by the rich countries, tariffs etc.

 

Smitty

 

 

WIN!!!

 

[wongrs]

Bottom line for me? If the workers are treated fairly and paid a decent wage compared to the country's standard of living, I have no problem with corporations that use cheap labor. Keeps costs low, and frankly I'm keeping it real here folks. Companies are always going to be attracted and migrate to areas where cheap labor - which account for the majority of expenses - exists.

 

Fair trade as it relates to laws, and regulations, and the WTO are a larger issue of course, in that sense, one could say 3rd world countries have been exploited for decades because of the lack of a level playing field, subsidies paid by the rich countries, tariffs etc.

 

Smitty

 

This is the whole point to have fair trade labels. It identifies which companies treat their labour fairly from both economic and social perspectives. If something was not labeled fair trade, then the buyer wouldn't know if they were buying from the responsible or the plunderer unless you did a lot of homework. It helps those out who are interested to buy goods made responsibly rather than exploiting the labour.

 

 

[canadensis]

This is the whole point to have fair trade labels. It identifies which companies treat their labour fairly from both economic and social perspectives. If something was not labeled fair trade, then the buyer wouldn't know if they were buying from the responsible or the plunderer unless you did a lot of homework. It helps those out who are interested to buy goods made responsibly rather than exploiting the labour.

 

Well I agree with this, but you are sure left with the impression that a few companies think that they can charge even more under the guise of "fair trade" ie. Starbucks.

 

Paying a nickel more to the African mother that tie's my flies would surely be passed to me with a very heafty increase that surpasses the "fair" price paid at the manufacturing level.

[Lundvike]

I think that there are those of who tie our own that take fair trade into account when purchasing materials. I have heard of people deliberately not buying Chinese made hooks simply because they were chinese and not because they were lower quality.

[Neil Waugh]

I'm heartened that a grumpy old geezer like SilverDoctor can get a Fair Trade price for his flies whether through luck, charming personality, high end deodorant, cosmic forces or all of the above.

But that grumpy old geezer from Rocky Mountain House, my buddy Don A, says he got out of the biz because he couldn't compete.

Those ladies he mentioned who tied for Dan Bailey in Livingston brought in some much needed off farm income for a lot of Paradise Valley ranch families. Now I, guess, they don't.

All that was long gone the last time I visited the store. Heck even the Pacific Northern depot across the street is now a museum.

I did witness a similar situation - although not on such an intense scale - in Jerry Doake's shop at Doaktown on the Miramichi when I was there last. A couple of girls were cranking out Green Machines and you hope they were getting Fair Trade prices. Although I note with some concern you can now get 'em from the Kenyaflies website.

But the question remains, is it OK for a bunch of fat and rich Albertan fly anglers to exploit a bunch of ladies in Kenya? Or in my case, just fat.

[126barnes]

I did witness a similar situation - although not on such an intense scale - in Jerry Doake's shop at Doaktown on the Miramichi when I was there last. A couple of girls were cranking out Green Machines and you hope they were getting Fair Trade prices.

 

 

Jerry Doak is also charging $5-6 per fly so either the girls are getting "fair trade" or he is making a mint.

 

[SilverDoctor]

I know Jerry, it's fair trade. They produce high quality flies on quality hooks with often expensive materials. These are specialty flies for a focused market.

[midgetwaiter]

Fair trade in Latte shops is just slick marketing to make the left wing eco weiners feel good when they pay $5 for a coffee, nothing more.

.

Later on in this thread you mention Starbucks specifically so let's use that as an example. I challenge you to go to any Starbucks in the country and pay $5 for a coffee. Seriously just try, you can't spend more than $2.50. Timmy's is $1.79, it's not that big a difference. A made to order latte or something maybe but not a drip brewed coffee.

 

Whatever point you are trying to make dies because you are using a dishonest argument.

 

 

[126barnes]

I know Jerry, it's fair trade. They produce high quality flies on quality hooks with often expensive materials. These are specialty flies for a focused market.

 

I'm sure Jerry is a nice guy, I have gotten excellant service from him on serveral rod and reel orders.

 

But to charge $4 for a bug, $4.50/$5.50 for a hairwing & $5.50 for a bomber (I kinda agree here, I hate those SOB's) is a little much. As for quality flies I'm sure they are, atleast they better be. As for quality hooks, Diiachi 2441 (Salmon standard around here) are only $18/hundy for a dealer no matter what they sell them for retail so I don't agree there. As for expensive materials, unless we are talking feather wings the expense of a fly are in the hook.

 

Don't mean to rant, but I just can't believe there is a market for such highpriced flies. I can see emergency restocking but not a focused market.

 

But then again hes been in bussiness for a while, and I'm still doing something I hate to put food on the table.

 

 

 

 

[SupremeLeader]

I'm not sure where this argument is going, but I don't believe sweat shops, child labor etc. is real debatable at this point. It's not right; it is exploitation of poorer nations for the financial gain of western corporations, and their customers. Why should somebody work for less than we do? What makes us better or more deserving?

And for the record Smitty, I'm not 'whining'....I'm raising questions.

 

It is something we all unfortunately have to live with, but how someone can compare their savings and exploitation of individuals in third world countries as 'job creation' is quite odd, and certainly misleading. If one believes the status quo of our current economic system is necessary, or rather, a balance in which poorer nations require western corporation to exploit labor... you're fooling yourself; cheap labor is not ad hoc to western corporate success.

 

I'm not sure of the exact situation with offshore fly production, but I would speculate the workers are exploited to a certain degree.

 

From personal experience though, there is no money in fly tying.

[canadensis]

I'm not sure where this argument is going, but I don't believe sweat shops, child labor etc. is real debatable at this point. It's not right; it is exploitation of poorer nations for the financial gain of western corporations, and their customers. Why should somebody work for less than we do? What makes us better or more deserving?

And for the record Smitty, I'm not 'whining'....I'm raising questions.

 

It is something we all unfortunately have to live with, but how someone can compare their savings and exploitation of individuals in third world countries as 'job creation' is quite odd, and certainly misleading. If one believes the status quo of our current economic system is necessary, or rather, a balance in which poorer nations require western corporation to exploit labor... you're fooling yourself; cheap labor is not ad hoc to western corporate success.

 

I'm not sure of the exact situation with offshore fly production, but I would speculate the workers are exploited to a certain degree.

 

From personal experience though, there is no money in fly tying.

 

 

I don't think anyone is wanting to debate the merits of child labor and sweatshops? So you pay the lady the equivalent of some kind of minimum wage or slightly above in africa for tying flies? She is earning a living feeding her family tying flies, so what is the issue?

 

Many years ago I was a welder on a pipeline. I worked in -40, on my back, laying on my back in a steel pipe, dark, fumes, bitter cold, for months, truly shitty working conditions. If I could have somehow trained a chimpanzee to do my job back then I would be on the news and up on animal cruelty charges. (trust me I thought of it). I made good money back then, but the CEO of the company we put the line in for probably made 100x more than me and I guarantee I worked harder than him.

 

This was no 3rd world country- right here in Alberta. Would you consider this "exploitation"?

[jack]

I have a friend that has organized a small group of disabled U.S. military vets who tie and supply flies to local markets in Washington and Oregon states, to supplement their pensions. Would that be a "good thing" or exploitation of the disabled and by whose "standard" ?

Do we actually have to visit the source ourselves to confirm "fair trade" or is there really someone out there, that we can trust to be intelligent and objective in their assessment?

 

By the way, the "markup" of flies also has to include the hidden, absorbed cost of tossing below standard flies into the dumpster. And from Kenya in particular, that is not infrequent.

 

From the point of view of someone who has no intention of personally inspecting a production facility(or contract tyer's living room), I think that products of consistent, high quality are produced by people who are paid a fair(in their economy) wage. Inconsistent and low quality flies ring a warning bell.

j

[SupremeLeader]

I don't think anyone is wanting to debate the merits of child labor and sweatshops? So you pay the lady the equivalent of some kind of minimum wage or slightly above in africa for tying flies? She is earning a living feeding her family tying flies, so what is the issue?

 

Many years ago I was a welder on a pipeline. I worked in -40, on my back, laying on my back in a steel pipe, dark, fumes, bitter cold, for months, truly shitty working conditions. If I could have somehow trained a chimpanzee to do my job back then I would be on the news and up on animal cruelty charges. (trust me I thought of it). I made good money back then, but the CEO of the company we put the line in for probably made 100x more than me and I guarantee I worked harder than him.

 

This was no 3rd world country- right here in Alberta. Would you consider this "exploitation"?

 

It sounds like you had a seriously difficult job, but correct me if I'm wrong, did you just compare your job where you made "good money" to a lady in Kenya tying flies for minimum wage to feed her family?

 

My guess is you had a choice and still do; I wonder what her options are? Perhaps if she could make 'good money', she would do so as opposed to tying flies for 10 hours a day at minimum wage just so she could feed her family.

 

I'm sorry Canadensis, but your comment bleeds insensitivity and a hierarchal attitude towards people in poorer nations. I have trouble excepting the idea that it is ok for people to work under tough conditions with little options, so we can have cheap flies, and they can make just enough to feed their kids.

 

Regards.

[canadensis]

It sounds like you had a seriously difficult job, but correct me if I'm wrong, did you just compare your job were you made "good money" to a lady in Kenya tying flies for minimum wage to feed her family?

 

My guess is you had a choice and still do; I wonder what her options are? Perhaps if she could make 'good money', she would do so as opposed to tying flies for 10 hours a day at minimum wage just so she could feed her family.

 

I'm sorry Canadesis, but your comment bleeds insensitivity and a hierarchal attitude towards people in poorer nations. I have trouble excepting the idea that it is ok for people to work under tough conditions with little options, so we can have cheap flies, and they make just enough to feed their kids.

 

Regards.

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not at all insensitive to her situation, but what are the REAL options? Easy to sit on the side lines and say this and that.

 

You come across as a socialist that thinks no one should make any more than anyone else, this is why I told you what I did to feed my family at one time and how the CEO was raking it in because of my sacrifice just to feed my family. Definately no comparing me to her. So ya you are wrong and I am correcting you on this.

 

It is still of my OPINION that as long as the people tying flies in Kenya are not children, and there is proper working conditions as set out by some kind of international body, a fair wage for what they are doing I have no problem with it. Like I say, what are the other real options?

 

Just look at the labels on your clothes, where all of your electronic devices are made- tell me what the difference is?

[SupremeLeader]

It is amazing how 'Socialist' has become a bad word......

[TerryH]

It is amazing how 'Socialist' has become a bad word......

For most rational people, it always was a bad word. Anyway, it's not amazing at all -- name one place on the planet where socialism has worked. Cuba & Korea come quickly to mind. Terry

 

[SupremeLeader]

For most rational people, it always was a bad word. Anyway, it's not amazing at all -- name one place on the planet where socialism has worked. Cuba & Korea come quickly to mind. Terry

 

Hmmm, when I think of Socialism I always think of the ideologies of the Social Democrat parties in places such as Sweden.

 

Of course, I also think of Canada, which is often termed a Socialist country, particularly by Americans.

 

Interesting to think that currently and likely the foreseeable future, the Socialist regimes will no doubt dominate the economy (China). And for the record, North Korea and Cuba are de facto dictatorships under the guise of self-declared socialist states.

 

Socialism is a bad word for most rational people? Perhaps, on another note... most rational people also accept the science behind climate change.