Sick Of Seeing Sw Alberta Go To Crap

[Hawgstoppah]

I have alluded to my displeasure of the degradation of the fishing experience in the area in a few other posts but maybe it's about time to get this out in the open.

 

As a fishing guide (just one of hundreds who guide these waters) I am disgusted by the complete gong show that occurs in some of alberta's most wonderfull areas. Castle, Livingstone, Oldman, Racehorse, Carbondale... and many many more. You cant even drive out there and find a spot anywhere without a quad or random camp set up all summer. I mean you cant even drive half a KM with no one there.

 

things affecting the fishing

-quads destroying spawning habitat, bankside habitat + vegitation (where do you think the bugs that feed fish come from?)

-overfishing (even catch and release has mort rates)

-illegal harvest (how many camps have you walked through in the evening only to find them frying up a fish on the livingstone or other C&R stream?)

-litter from random camps and quad camps

 

I propose a COMPLETE CLOSURE of the area for 5 years, after which

 

- No random camping (not even for fisherman)

- No off roading (NOT even to go fishing... stay on the actual road, park on the side)

- No quads

- Complete C&R on all streams everywhere within the Oldman drainage and Castle drainage.

 

Who's sick and tired of all the crap going on out there and wants to do something? It's time. If we all band together and take charge, maybe we can make a difference. Feel free to add your comments about what can / needs to be done out there but keep in mind... these streams need it NOW... there dying right in front of our eyes.

[jayjjones11]

I have alluded to my displeasure of the degradation of the fishing experience in the area in a few other posts but maybe it's about time to get this out in the open.

 

As a fishing guide (just one of hundreds who guide these waters) I am disgusted by the complete gong show that occurs in some of alberta's most wonderfull areas. Castle, Livingstone, Oldman, Racehorse, Carbondale... and many many more. You cant even drive out there and find a spot anywhere without a quad or random camp set up all summer. I mean you cant even drive half a KM with no one there.

 

things affecting the fishing

-quads destroying spawning habitat, bankside habitat + vegitation (where do you think the bugs that feed fish come from?)

-overfishing (even catch and release has mort rates)

-illegal harvest (how many camps have you walked through in the evening only to find them frying up a fish on the livingstone or other C&R stream?)

-litter from random camps and quad camps

 

I propose a COMPLETE CLOSURE of the area for 5 years, after which

 

- No random camping (not even for fisherman)

- No off roading (NOT even to go fishing... stay on the actual road, park on the side)

- No quads

- Complete C&R on all streams everywhere within the Oldman drainage and Castle drainage.

 

Who's sick and tired of all the crap going on out there and wants to do something? It's time. If we all band together and take charge, maybe we can make a difference. Feel free to add your comments about what can / needs to be done out there but keep in mind... these streams need it NOW... there dying right in front of our eyes.

 

Why bother with a closure, all we need is enforcement.

Give the random campers/ATVers Mclean Creek and Indian Graves as designated areas, these places are ruined enough already.

If we close these areas, they'll find other areas to go trash. there needs to be designated areas to take the beating to save the rest.

No guiding would make these areas outstandingly better, by removing pressure that these streams would not normally see without someone putting in some homework (instead of just some bucks)

[reevesr1]

Hmm.

I'm 50 yrs old. I probably have 20 yrs of solid fishing left where I can hike hills, fish back country, etc. 5 yr closure in 25% of my remaining fishing life. I'm not a fan of the idea, though I understand the sentiment.

 

If you close that area, where are all the random folks going? They'll go somewhere. So if we close the south, whatever water there is north of Calgary will then get covered up, only moving the problem elsewhere.

 

I have no idea what the answer here is. I would be in favor of severe limitations on # of random campers and a enforced time limit (isn't it 2 weeks in BC?). Also for significant no ATV zones, though they need someplace as well, imho. They could also limit rod days of guides and I wouldn't have a problem if they limited rod days for everyone. But not a complete closure.

 

 

[headscan]

Why bother with a closure, all we need is enforcement.

Bingo!

 

Edit: And not just enforcement, but enforcement with teeth. Enough warnings, let's see some real fines issued and equipment confiscated.

[Taco]

Funny how my best fish this yr are coming right in the middle of random camping quading areas, the catching off all over the south this yr even in the areas with zero tracks and I agree, it's strictly an enforcement issue

[cheeler]

For change to happen, you're going to need to get public attention on the area; posting stories won't do much - you need to get the media involved but you'll probably need to provide them with some incentive to print a story. Posting stories complaining that they're doing nasty things is one thing, but rarely do we see pictures or other proof (such as scientific studies on fish populations) that the area is being harmed.

 

If a journalist had a bit of incentive because people prove there is a story, a newspaper article in the Herald or Sun could gain support from the vast population that doesn't venture from the city limits too often, which is far more effective at getting attention in the Legislature than a few fisherman writing letters.

 

With that in mind, there are still camping fishing spots I've been to which don't have litter strewn about them; even the leftover firewood has been stacked nicely! There's also a healthy but picky population of trout in the water to fish for. So there are responsible users somewhere, we just need to educate and weed out the abusers.

[Bigtoad]

I've only experienced the random camping up here West of Rocky and in some areas it is truly ridiculous. I am totally with you that the government needs to step in IMMEDIATELY and do a strategic, province-wide plan on how to stop this freakish road-show.

 

Some initial thoughts:

1. There must be designated areas for quadders to have some fun but these should be more than 100m away from any waterway OR body of water and stream/river crossings should be only in designated areas. These designated areas should also have marked trails that need to be followed so only the trail is damaged and not the whole area. Stiff fines if broken.

 

2. Random camping (I'm thinking mostly tents here... RV's are covered in #3) continues to be allowed but MUST be registered.

ex. If I want to go to the South Ram and camp along the river:

a. If there are designated campgrounds with firepits I NEED to camp at those sites (If all sites are taken, I don't camp there).

b. If the area is too remote to have sites, I still need to register approximately where (and how many nights) I will be staying there.

 

The gov't could charge $5 a night to random camp to take care of the admin costs and to pay for improving designated sites in more remote places. You could register online and print off your registration card. If you are out camping and you don't have a registration card for the area and time you are there, you get some seriously hefty fines.

 

3. Areas that RV's can access, there needs to be more designated campsites made available, even rustic ones with no utilities, but still a dumping station. Charge $10 - $15 a night. MAKE ALL OTHER RANDOM CAMPING BY RV'S ILLEGAL ON CROWN LAND! (unless of course there is no designated rv camping sites within 25km (or something like that?) in that area. However, they would still need to register under #2 above and pay $5 a night.

 

4. Education and information: There needs to be camping/quadding regulations JUST like there is for fishing and hunting complete with brochure or magazine. In it, there would be good maps that CLEARLY show where you can and can not quad as well as defined trails. There would also be general regulations in there like only crossing rivers in designated areas, staying 100m away from waterbodies, etc. Camping could have something like that as well. A general regulations booklet with maps of all of the designated camping areas and rules for camping. They could even steal some of the info from "How to *hit in the woods," to help educate campers on minimum impact camping.

 

5. STIFF PENALTIES! Once some of these things are in place, make the fines for breaking them incredibly steep. This would help to pay for extra workers as well as be a larger deterrent for idiots.

 

Thoughts???

 

Oh, and WHERE DO I WRITE A LETTER? Someone, please tell me where and how I can get involved and I'll be there. I just don't know who to send it to.

 

Cheers.

 

[Hawgstoppah]

I should state that my thoughts and sentiments from my original post go out to ALL of alberta's designated "crown land" which is getting quadded and camped to death (this includes west of rocky mtn house, etc etc).

 

At the very least we need a complete ban on all off roading (including driving RV's to random sites) and even up to including driving any vehicle off a road to access fishing. The area is too fragile to handle this any longer. We're destroying our kids future fisheries. The time is now.

 

Anyone know who I can contact to set up a non profit org. in alberta?

[agbff]

I should state that my thoughts and sentiments from my original post go out to ALL of alberta's designated "crown land" which is getting quadded and camped to death (this includes west of rocky mtn house, etc etc).

 

At the very least we need a complete ban on all off roading (including driving RV's to random sites) and even up to including driving any vehicle off a road to access fishing. The area is too fragile to handle this any longer. We're destroying our kids future fisheries. The time is now.

 

Anyone know who I can contact to set up a non profit org. in alberta?

 

I think Bigtoad has got the right idea... The small amount of effort and organization it would take to acquire a registration slip would probably deter quite a few of the random campers that are responsible for chain sawing down live trees, and leaving there campsites in a *hit pile.

 

Hawgstoppah, If all ATV's and offroad vehicles are banned, where do you expect all those people to go and enjoy there view of the outdoors. I agree that it gets completely insane out there on the weekends sometimes with a bunch of young kids taunting death on the four wheelers, but do you think a complete is ban the right way to go about this? Where are they gunna head?

 

As stated above, ENFORCEMENT is key. Through random camping fee's, the government would be able to employ many more officers. more officers= more control=more fines= more cash to enforce!... its an viscious circle.

 

I dont think we can single out a group of offroad enthusiasts because im sure a lot of those guys take there kids out there and show them the "safe" way to ride and to stay outta the streambeds. We need more CO's to control idiots that are letting there ten year olds have free range with a 300cc machine. Forget who said it but I really do believe its gunna take a tragedy before anything is done about it.

 

[Tungsten]

I like the registration idea,each vehicle hast to have a permit laying on the dash.20 bucks a permit is not that much to go for the weekend.

Never mind steeper fines how about just quit giving warnings.You brake the law you get a ticket, plain and simple.

 

[mvdaog]

I'm with you.... I know a lot of people who are used to the good ol' days when everything was unregulated and people could go in the mountains doing whatever they wanted hate introducing more regulations, but we really need it. The parks have it, and they'll be around for a long time in all their beauty. BC has, as of today at least, seemed to have saved a lot of their fisheries with their classified systems, as much as people in AB hate it. I'd rather enforce restrictions that people aren't going to be happy about if it saves the ecosystems. It's not a 'who cares about the ATVers', its just that the ATVers ruin the areas they like to ATV in... no one likes to see a huge torn up muddy destroyed section of forest, not to mention the creek destruction, noise pollution etc. I'm fine with ATVers doing their thing somewhere else, but not where they destroy something beautiful. The fishing should become more regulated like BC has done.... camping should be like the parks.

Basically, in my opinion, the national and provincial parks systems are the best invention we've came up with, and we should extend those policies to anywhere that deserves the protection.

[hopdrop]

The only way people are going to improve, especially the ones that lack respect, is if it costs them money not to improve. Most people know better, they just don't care. The $30 or $40 fines do nothing. Littering, poaching, anything, $1000. No warnings.

 

Someone I know, who is actually a quadder, had what I thought was a good idea. At the start, or during some of the busier summer weekends (ideally every weekend), mark as many random camping sites as possible with GPS. Tag each site with a license plate number and inform the owner of said vehicle, they are now responsible for the site. Any problems and it comes back to them. I realize it's far from perfect, but will put some of the responsibility on individuals instead of always depending on F&W or conservation officers. Volunteers could do the mapping. I know everyone passes multiple random camping sites every time they fish any of the previously mentioned areas. To tag a waypoint with a license number takes no effort. Email SRD with the coordinates and license plate number on your return. It'll be impossible to issue a fine to someone after the fact, but at least it lets people know their actions are being watched.

[hopdrop]

I don't know if I agree with the registration idea, at least on an equal terms basis. To me it doesn't seem right that the hiker pays the same as the guy who drags four quads and two dirt bikes out in the back of his toy hauler. It's everyone's to enjoy. Punish those who abuse it.

 

I have to purchase a fishing license to fish. Maybe ATVers should have to purchase an ATV license to ATV.

[cheeler]

ATV's do require an OHV license already, and insurance on top of that. But it's doubtful that any of that money comes back to help the areas that get destroyed. I believe there are ATV groups that promote responsible use of the vehicles - perhaps your idea is more akin to an operator card that would require an online course to acquire?

 

And shutting down the area can also have disastrous effects. Biologists don't want to completely close a stream unless they have to; they'd rather make it catch and release - with no fishermen around, who's going to call in the poachers? Energy companies still need access, and if the government isn't going to pay for enforcement today, it's highly unlikely they'll be will to patrol the access roads and camping areas 24/7.

[ÜberFly]

FYI, the fly shops (and others) in the Crowsnest have a grass roots group organized and are trying to take a proactive approach... Don't have much info, but there is strength in numbers...

 

P

 

ATV's do require an OHV license already, and insurance on top of that. But it's doubtful that any of that money comes back to help the areas that get destroyed. I believe there are ATV groups that promote responsible use of the vehicles - perhaps your idea is more akin to an operator card that would require an online course to acquire?

 

And shutting down the area can also have disastrous effects. Biologists don't want to completely close a stream unless they have to; they'd rather make it catch and release - with no fishermen around, who's going to call in the poachers? Energy companies still need access, and if the government isn't going to pay for enforcement today, it's highly unlikely they'll be will to patrol the access roads and camping areas 24/7.

 

[Neil Waugh]

Rather than more mindless and ill-informed b!tching and complaining why not go to this website and see what's really going on.

 

tpr.alberta.ca/recreation/trails/default.aspx -

 

Yup there's an MLA commitee hard at work, chaired by Athabasca Redwater Tory Jeff Johnson. The wheels are turning down at the legislature. Although not exactly fast. Once a trail gets "designated" then that's were the quadzidiots are legally supposed to ride. Nowhere else.

Also check out what my buddy Cal is doing on the Alberta OHV Association.

Cal, by the way, also sits on the ACA board. He's a busy guy.

 

[reevesr1]

Without mindless and ill-informed bitching there would not be an internet. Or at least internet forums.

 

[ÜberFly]

Wow! You're right! They don't move very quickly!! That document was published in 2003 and the committee formed in 2006!! They're really hard at work!

 

P

 

 

Rather than more mindless and ill-informed b!tching and complaining why not go to this website and see what's really going on.

 

tpr.alberta.ca/recreation/trails/default.aspx -

 

Yup there's an MLA commitee hard at work, chaired by Athabasca Redwater Tory Jeff Johnson. The wheels are turning down at the legislature. Although not exactly fast. Once a trail gets "designated" then that's were the quadzidiots are legally supposed to ride. Nowhere else.

Also check out what my buddy Cal is doing on the Alberta OHV Association.

Cal, by the way, also sits on the ACA board. He's a busy guy.

[Hawgstoppah]

Rather than more mindless and ill-informed b!tching and complaining why not go to this website and see what's really going on.

 

maybe you need to spend more time actually out there, and see what's really going on... instead of making people who actually see whats happenening and give a damn about it have to listen to your slander. We need to all be on the same page. There isnt time for your group of slowpokes anymore. The time is now. Who's willing to start some sort of not for profit group to save these areas... and willing to do what it really will take.. (yes if that includes not guiding there, not fishing there, not using OHV's there, etc). I am on board. who else?

 

[Neil Waugh]

Hey, I fish the Coal Branch - Alberta's so-called "Model Forest" - so I know exactly what's happening there and along the Prairie Creek drainage and the Westcastle etc., etc. So spare me the lecture.

If you really want change then TALK TO THE GUY WHO IS IN CHARGE OF MAKING THE CHANGES!!!

Tell him what you want done. Heck, some of it might even come true. Changes are coming, especially anywhere along the Eastern Slopes. It's already happened in the Big Horn and the Waiprous and Indian Graves.

But unless anglers organizations are represented at Jeff Johnson's table, all your valid concerns won't heard.

There's a process underway. That's all I'm saying.

 

[wtforward]

Just got finished talking to a Special Policy Adviser out of Morton's office ( nice guy).

He says there is new enforcement regulation coming out and will hopefully be in

effect before the May long week end 2010. The devil is in the details. He indicated

that they have received many complaints and are trying to address some of the concerns

in the new regs. Enforcement is only part of it I think. Random camping/ATVs need to be

restricted to certain areas. A particular area has only so much camping activity

carrying capacity and until that is addressed no amount of enforcement is

going to fix the 'Tragedy of the Commons'. It would be interesting if there

was a tread restriction on motorized ATVs/Bikes for a given area. Treading up

a bike just elevates the confidence to get into situations that really rip up the

environment that perhaps you might not otherwise consider. Riding when it is

raining as an example just exacerbates erosion and is usually only possible

if you got the lugged rubber under you. Enjoying the West country is not a

right or entitlement as many seem to think. BB's can serve a purpose to

let off some steam and bring attention to a problem but if you are really serious

then consider forming (another) group and see if you can get someone in Ted's office

to listen to your concerns and suggestions. If you hate

groups then pick up the phone and voice your concern and don't forget to vote!

[Hawgstoppah]

It's already happened in the Big Horn and the Waiprous and Indian Graves.

 

all that's done is move the boneheads into equally fragile and yet unprotected areas. There needs to be a ban on the activity, not a move to another unruined area...

 

[Neil Waugh]

Then tell Jeff that's what you want. Who knows, you may even get it.

But you're simply preaching to the converted on this board.

Yup, we all agree that quads are evil and random campers are an affront.

Then what??

Like I said, the wheels are turning - ever so slowly.

But it's the government that inevitably makes the call.

[reevesr1]

Who's willing to start some sort of not for profit group to save these areas... and willing to do what it really will take.. (yes if that includes not guiding there, not fishing there, not using OHV's there, etc). I am on board. who else?

 

Depends on who you are looking for. Would I be willing to participate in a group who is trying to come up with a plan to address the issues of over-crowding in the southwest? Yes I would. Would I be interested if the goal of the group is to ban all off road and random camping (not regulate it, but ban it) as well as fishing for 5 yrs? No, I would not. Now if after studying the problem the group decided that the best answer was to ban activity for some set period of time, then fine. But if the stated goal of the group is to ban activity, then not only would I not support it, I think I would oppose it as I don't think it is the solution.

 

 

[Smitty]

Brian:

 

I am in agreement with Rick: I will support a group based on the following principles:

1) Increased enforcement

2) increased regulations if and when necessary

3) But not a blanket, over-reaching, unsupportable ban for 5 years on all activity. I won't waste my time and effort on something so unsustainable. If its just banning quads and random camping in some areas, where demonstrable negative effects are evident (and you don't have to convince me, just setting you up for the gov't officials' standards), then I say that's fine and supportable by me.

 

Smitty