Oilsands And Acid Rain

[Flytyer]

There is so much spinning going on here I'm getting dizzy.

 

It's called thread hi-jacking which is not very nice but way tooooooo common around here.

 

[theiceman2]

Smart man. Pretty well sums it up.

 

Ya know Sun, the thing that pi$$es me off is the multinationals, ERCB and our own Government treat us like fools. You know- don't worry we have everything under control, everything is fine, we're environmentally responsible, etc. They spend millions on spindoctors to spew out garbage that even I -with no background in the industry- can see is bulls**t. If you're going to pillage and plunder the land, at least have the balls to admit it and say what the consequences are.

 

The Oilsands are a done deal; there is no stopping the development, but at least let Albertans know what the environmental cost was.

Regards Mike

 

[Ricinus]

By that admission you are against farms and agriculture. They pillage and plunder the land way more that the oil sands. They have an absolutely massive foot print. They water crops during the heat of the day, they spread massive quantities of pesticides and herbicides on the ground. They kill deer and elk eating the crops where their meadow once sat. They kill small mammals and foxes and coyotes and poison animals that damage their crops and kill their livestock. Bears are killed to protect pretty little donkeys. They chopped down and plowed in millions of acres of boreal forest and grasslands and meadows to grow wheat, barley, tobacco etc. We need the food. We need the fuel. What is the difference? IMHO

 

Well, if you want to put words in my mouth;You forgot to mention Urban sprawl, Forest Industry, Dams, Mines and the list goes on. It's not a question of what is being done as much as how we are doing it. If you can't see the difference, I cannot help you.

 

Regards Mike

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Well, if you want to put words in my mouth;You forgot to mention Urban sprawl, Forest Industry, Dams, Mines and the list goes on. It's not a question of what is being done as much as how we are doing it. If you can't see the difference, I cannot help you.

 

Regards Mike

 

You missed the point. You are complaining bitterly about the use of the surface for oil and gas but turn a blind eye to urban sprawl, agriculture, forestry, dams, roads, wind farms, you name it. At least if you are bitter about it say that you are one sided and not interested in mitigating issues. You just hate oil and gas activity. Is large companies really a problem over a 5000 bbl/day company? What it the difference when the rules are the same? Bigger companies tend to have more stringent corporate governance/practices/code of conduct to follow than smaller companies. Larger companies mean they are in the spot light more and are under more scrutiny. Just because a company is big does not make them bad. In most instances, bigger means cheaper for the consumer etc. There is no monoply in the oil patch so that would be a big concern if there was no competition.

 

Clearly you have been wronged before and for that you have my sympathies. Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress work within the confines of how society deems that appropriate. Protection of the environment does not mean we all need to leave the Province to keep it pristine...and neither should we pollute like crazy. The later is well regulated and gets tougher and tougher every year.

 

 

[Ricinus]

Sun

You're just turning this into a personal attack against me. This is becoming a Monty Python type discussion, -- yes it is, no it isn't, yes you are, no I'm not-- and so on. I think it's best to say we disagree and leave it at that. Hopefully, no hard feelings either way.

 

Regards Mike

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sun

You're just turning this into a personal attack against me. This is becoming a Monty Python type discussion, -- yes it is, no it isn't, yes you are, no I'm not-- and so on. I think it's best to say we disagree and leave it at that. Hopefully, no hard feelings either way.

 

Regards Mike

 

Never a personal attack intended either way.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[SupremeLeader]

You missed the point. You are complaining bitterly about the use of the surface for oil and gas but turn a blind eye to urban sprawl, agriculture, forestry, dams, roads, wind farms, you name it. At least if you are bitter about it say that you are one sided and not interested in mitigating issues. You just hate oil and gas activity. Is large companies really a problem over a 5000 bbl/day company? What it the difference when the rules are the same? Bigger companies tend to have more stringent corporate governance/practices/code of conduct to follow than smaller companies. Larger companies mean they are in the spot light more and are under more scrutiny. Just because a company is big does not make them bad. In most instances, bigger means cheaper for the consumer etc. There is no monoply in the oil patch so that would be a big concern if there was no competition.

 

Clearly you have been wronged before and for that you have my sympathies. Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress work within the confines of how society deems that appropriate. Protection of the environment does not mean we all need to leave the Province to keep it pristine...and neither should we pollute like crazy. The later is well regulated and gets tougher and tougher every year.

 

I think what consistently happens when you try to argue with someone form the Oil and Gas industry is they tend to take the argument out of focus; this method seems to be quite effective, albeit crude (pardon the pun) and childish.

 

This discussion is a prime example. I posted a report on Acids Rain and Oil Sands and the first two responses were that the story / study is bias. The study was done by a branch of the Saskatchewan government (which, if one were to suggest bias, one would think the G of S would be bias towards industry?), and even after we got past the source, the bias argument continued. These tactics are really clever; deviate from the issue, accuse a legitimate source of being bias and false, and suggest the whole issue/argument is bunk.

 

And then there is the technique where one deviates from the issue by pointing out other faults of our society to justify another; comparing apples and oranges. Urban Sprawl and Oil Sands are two different issues. This type of justification is childish; it is the 'if they can do it why can't I argument'. It is like our government a few years back about the Kyoto Accord and there "if China isn’t abiding by it, why should we" argument. This type of arguing epitomizes the emptiness and greediness of industry. This emptiness is exemplified quite distinctly in your last sentence Sundance; 'Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress work within the confines of how society deems that appropriate'. The key word there is progress ('progress' being another term used interchangeably in the oil industry with 'money') and that is all that people [who can't see the atrocities of the Oil Sands] really care about. Another word you used incorrectly in the sentence is 'Society'; that should be replaced with industry....then it doesn't sound like such BS.

 

'Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress/money work within the confines of how industry deems that appropriate'

 

Now the above statement holds true to every argument the pro oil sands posters have wrote in this thread.

 

Regards.

[bigbowtrout]

childish.

 

 

Fine you win but no Cake for you!!!!!!

[monger]

Entertaining thread. Couple of thoughts on the hijack...

Everyone raises interesting thoughts. We are a society that voraciously uses/wastes energy. Until there is a shift in our energy appetite there will be continued environmental degradation. Many of us don't like what we see (or ignore what we see) and are quick to voice an opinion. However, from what I see, there is very few people who are serious enough to make major sacrifices to their energy sucking lifestyle. If you don't walk the talk it is hard to take you too seriously.

 

Doing the "right" thing often isn't good for the bottom line.

 

If you think the morals/ethics in the bio-medical research community are significantly better that the energy research community, I believe you could be mislead. People in both areas are just doing jobs and trying to keep that job for next year. Massaging data is an art form that has become much more widespread in the past 10 years.

[SupremeLeader]

However, from what I see, there is very few people who are serious enough to make major sacrifices to their energy sucking lifestyle. If you don't walk the talk it is hard to take you too seriously.

 

Indeed, but just for the record, and my own accountabilty.

 

I share a vehicle with 4 people.

I try to grow a lot of my own food.

I use public transit, or bicycle to go to work.

I was recycling long before the blue bins.

I eat very little meat, and I keep fish when possible (legal).

 

shall I continue

 

[SanJuanWorm]

Indeed, but just for the record, and my own accountabilty.

 

I share a vehicle with 4 people.

I try to grow a lot of my own food.

I use public transit, or bicycle to go to work.

I was recycling long before the blue bins.

I eat very little meat, and I keep fish when possible (legal).

 

shall I continue

 

 

Wow we're quite different.

 

I ride my motorcycle to work which runs so rich it blows out 2 foot flames on decel.

I eat raw meat, *hit vegetables.

I do recycle though.

 

I just want OPTI Canada to go up to 20 bucks then i'll pack up and move outta Alberta and forget the oil sands ever happened.

 

(by the way im mostly kidding)

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I think what consistently happens when you try to argue with someone form the Oil and Gas industry is they tend to take the argument out of focus; this method seems to be quite effective, albeit crude (pardon the pun) and childish.

 

This discussion is a prime example. I posted a report on Acids Rain and Oil Sands and the first two responses were that the story / study is bias. The study was done by a branch of the Saskatchewan government (which, if one were to suggest bias, one would think the G of S would be bias towards industry?), and even after we got past the source, the bias argument continued. These tactics are really clever; deviate from the issue, accuse a legitimate source of being bias and false, and suggest the whole issue/argument is bunk.

 

And then there is the technique where one deviates from the issue by pointing out other faults of our society to justify another; comparing apples and oranges. Urban Sprawl and Oil Sands are two different issues. This type of justification is childish; it is the 'if they can do it why can't I argument'. It is like our government a few years back about the Kyoto Accord and there "if China isn’t abiding by it, why should we" argument. This type of arguing epitomizes the emptiness and greediness of industry. This emptiness is exemplified quite distinctly in you last sentence Sundance; 'Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress work within the confines of how society deems that appropriate'. The key word there is progress (‘progress’ being another term used interchangeably in the oil industry with ‘money’) and that is all that people [who can't see the atrocities of the Oil Sands] really care about. Another word you used incorrectly in the sentence is 'Society'; that should be replaced with industry....then it doesn't sound like such BS.

 

'Now we should be part of the solution and help make progress/money work within the confines of how industry deems that appropriate'

 

Now the above statement holds true to every argument the pro oil sands posters have wrote in this thread.

 

Regards.

 

Name calling... tisk tisk...

 

My point and again you side stepped it nicely is that people are complaining in posts about the footprint of this developement. Yes it is large...but so is many, many other developments in the province. You "choose" to pick on oil...clearly since you are dead set against it but alas...please tell us how you cope without using oil in your life every day. Now if it is just because you don't want it in your back yard...that NIMBY attitude is very common and will never go away. Nobody can argue with you to accept something that you don't want without any open mind about it. But progress is progress...you allude it is all about making money...well hate to explain this to you but we are a capitalist society. If you want people making money where you can't see it happening then again...very unlikely to have happen.

 

I am all for NOT having acid rain. I am all for NOT having pollution. I am all for everyone embracing and being friends. In the real world however we can never ever have absolutes. That is where we have to mitigate risk in the industry as to where the oil price will be or whether a well will be dry and also how to protect the environment and offset where needed problems with solutions.

 

To completely halt any progress in the province (ie. making money) is not logical and it did not work in Russia and will not work in Alberta. I know the thought of a utopian society in which love, money and rock and roll is freely given is awesome but I have yet to discover it myself.

 

As for commenting on studies...those of us with science background know that studies can always be misleading. We can not make snap judgements but clearly such a study should not be ignored but rather followed up to see if fact prevails over politics and environmental zeolots. I see that it is reasonable to assume such an occurance can occur and was brought up as a possibility in an oil patch study also. The degree to which this is a problem and whether it gets worse, has a significant impact, is a significant increase or at least biologically significant is important to know.

 

Some may say it is silly to see one report and SHOUT TO THE MASSES...aha...vindication...oil companies are evil.

 

I am not saying that is what you meant to have come across but over all I doubt anyone on this thread would out right say ignore the potential problem. That should show that one side has an open mind and is prepared to work to correcting it if it is actually occuring.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Indeed, but just for the record, and my own accountabilty.

 

I share a vehicle with 4 people.

I try to grow a lot of my own food.

I use public transit, or bicycle to go to work.

I was recycling long before the blue bins.

I eat very little meat, and I keep fish when possible (legal).

 

shall I continue

 

So lets see...evil oil patch guy comparison...

 

I share a vehicle between 5 people

I grow what I can in the back yard given Calgary's climate...this year raspberries, pees, tomatos, strawberries and some peppers... Since I don't like to use chemicals the slugs are enjoying the resort.

I only use public transit to work...I have now since 1990.

I have been recycling as long as I can remember but ramped it up to include everything in the blue box program

I love steak...adore a great rack of lamb...eat hamburgers, hot dogs and fish when I can (lots of perch lately for some reason).

 

Shall I continue ;-)

 

proves we are very much alike.

[monger]

SupremeLeader, I was not pointing a finger at you, rather our society in general. I'm as big an energy pig as the next guy.

 

I know a guy who has never owned a vehicle (bicycles only), built his own own solar/wind powered house that is not connected to natural gas, and grows most of his food. His footprint is pretty small compared to mine. He's making an effort to decrease energy consumption/environmental degradation. Maybe he is on a more sustainable road than most of us.

[dryfly]

Not read all of the posts....

 

I don't like the oil sands, but it is all about perspective. See here...Just some comparisons to the world's largest cities....and the oil sands will be reclaimed before the cities.

 

Better we screw up a few hundred square kilometers way up north than the bloody plague of wind turbines already blighting the south country and growing at an unacceptable pace while doing very little to reduce carbon emissions because they can't stand alone and need coal plants to back them up (and the coal plants have to run even when the wind is blowing.) Wind turbines kill bats and birds, are a terrible visual pollutant and reduce carbon very little compared to their high (and subsidized) cost. The money we pissed away on turbines would have been way better spent on conservation. They are freeloading parasites. But they are "green"... yeah sure.

 

But I digress. Sorry.

 

Can't have coal. Can't have dirty oil sands oil. Can't have dams. Can't have nuclear. Solar and wind (that do have a REAL place in the world .. sometimes) will never stop us from freezing our sorry asses off in a cold northern climate.

 

None of it is pretty. But we'd have to kill off 90 percent of the world's population to have much affect on fossil fuel use, eh? Let's face it. We are all bastards including eco weenies who use dirty oil and dirty coal to power their pooters and hybrid Tahoes.

 

Have a swell day.

[dryfly]

A question for SL who said, I try to grow a lot of my own food.

 

Just wondering how you do that from October to June? Do you eat out? Do you buy Alberta-grown veggies in December? Do you eat prepared foods? Do yo eat everything raw? How much more efficient (or inefficient) is it for you to produce a kilo of carrots compared to a 500-hectare carrot farm? How much native grassland had to disappear so you can grow a few kilos of veggies each year for a few weeks? Just wondering these things out loud. You don't have to answer.

 

Snide comment...

I use public transit, or bicycle to go to work ... Vast areas of Alberta have no practical public transit. It is only half practical in large cities ... you know, those vast, polluting environment destroying monstrosities. Ironically (according so some sociologist-geographer types), cities start become terribly inefficient when they exceed something like 200,000 people because so much time and effort is wasted just getting around.

 

I live in a small burg and although we shop in a nearby city for selection and price for most things, I can still walk to the post office, food market, drug store, barber shop, bank and insurance office...heck they are all in the same block. Maybe public transit is just a way to justify and already inefficient collection of humans.

 

 

[jksnijders]

 

 

I was kinda wondering the same thing..

[Taco]

Clive 'n Rex.... pair o cynical basterds if I ever saw any... damn boat rockers

 

 

 

 

 

good to have you back Schaupmeyer

[SupremeLeader]

A question for SL who said, I try to grow a lot of my own food.

 

Just wondering how you do that from October to June? Do you eat out? Do you buy Alberta-grown veggies in December? Do you eat prepared foods? Do yo eat everything raw? How much more efficient (or inefficient) is it for you to produce a kilo of carrots compared to a 500-hectare carrot farm? How much native grassland had to disappear so you can grow a few kilos of veggies each year for a few weeks? Just wondering these things out loud. You don't have to answer.

 

Snide comment...

I use public transit, or bicycle to go to work ... Vast areas of Alberta have no practical public transit. It is only half practical in large cities ... you know, those vast, polluting environment destroying monstrosities. Ironically (according so some sociologist-geographer types), cities start become terribly inefficient when they exceed something like 200,000 people because so much time and effort is wasted just getting around.

 

I live in a small burg and although we shop in a nearby city for selection and price for most things, I can still walk to the post office, food market, drug store, barber shop, bank and insurance office...heck they are all in the same block. Maybe public transit is just a way to justify and already inefficient collection of humans.

 

 

I have converted most of my city yard space to raised gardens; it is almost a full time job.

 

So far I have harvested (this month); 5 x 5 gallon buckets of potatoes, 5 gallons of carrots, and 5 gallons of beets. My wife and kids have also been eating several different greens, and zucchini throughout the summer. I have several other raised gardens with later varieties of beets, potatoes, salsify, and squash that I haven't harvested yet. I have one tomato plant, a variety called Siletz that is quite an early determinate strain; but I won't grow it again because of the square footage and time it takes to care for it.

 

I also have raspberries, strawberries, and I have planted several varieties of grapes this year.

 

I experimented with amaranth this year to see if I could produce some quinoa like grain; it was unsuccessful.

 

You need appox. 4000 square feet to grow enough food for one person for the year; this is very climate dependent however, and Calgary is hardly the best place to do it. Potatoes produce the most calories per square foot of any vegetable....they grow very well here. It is an interesting vegetable as well because it is one of the only ones you can survive on.

 

I have a very large root cellar and many vegetables; particularly potatoes can last well into next growing season. I also can and freeze a lot of food (mostly can because I don't have a large freezer).

 

As I said I try to grow a lot of my own food.

 

Just wondering how you do that from October to June?

See above.

 

Do you eat out?

Sometimes, but not often.

 

Do you buy Alberta-grown veggies in December?

Yes, you can buy Alberta grown veggies in many places well through the winter.

 

 

Do you eat prepared foods?

I try not to eat premade food if that is what you mean.

 

Do you eat everything raw?

No.

 

How much more efficient (or inefficient) is it for you to produce a kilo of carrots compared to a 500-hectare carrot farm?

I haven't the slightest idea, but I think producing food in an urban space is better than grass clippings. Little fact; Cuba produces between %80 and %90 of its produce consumed within the country from urban gardens.

 

How much native grassland had to disappear so you can grow a few kilos of veggies each year for a few weeks?

I produced a lot more than a few kilos, and no native grassland disappeared on my account; it was gone where I live long before I was born. That said I have tried to plant several native varieties of grasses in the unused areas of our place.

 

This is my last post on this site so I would appreciate if the moderator could close my account; I have a personal matter to attend to that will be keeping me away from this, work and other things in my life for a long while (this is not a joke either). I hope you all know my posts were to bend towards the extreme to get people talking. The last word is yours.

 

Regards and tight lines.

[reevesr1]

Hey SL,

Best of luck on the personal matter.

 

You're not the only one who bends toward the extreme to keep discussion going. Keeps things exciting, or if not exciting, at least not dull.

[Taco]

Ya know I do admire who stands by their convictions, best of luck SL

[bigbowtrout]

I hope all is well and best of luck.

 

There is really no need to delete you. Just leave it as is and if one day all is well you can return.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Keep it real and interesting SL...

 

Good luck with what ever is troubling you. I hope it works out for the best...

 

Sun