Do We Pay Too Much?

[darthwader]

I will work with the golf side of things, as it has come up throughout this thread. A company like Taylor,Ping, Callaway etc. Yes, you pay for the name, and you pay for the warranty, and the advertising. But, and this is a biggy in golf. With those clubs, you get a ton of R&d to try to make the game easier. Those clubs are designed to take terrible shots and make them half decent. There is legitimate science involved behind todays clubs and you pay for a lot of different things when you buy them. They are designed to make you hit the ball BETTER. When you buy knock offs, you buy something that LOOKS LIKE something that is designed to hit the ball better. Big difference there. I have always felt that these companies lead the industry and evrone else simply follows. There is demand in the golf market for quality, craftsmanship and "prestige" factor with these clubs. I think fly fishing to a degree is like that. I am not certain how much the difference in R&D is between Sage and Temple Fork, but I know that I have had both and I have enjoyed both.

 

When it comes to high end stuff, you always pay some for the name. I kind of figure 3 or 4 different people make a profit on your clubs,2 of which even before you see the gear. An example:

 

Set of Irons

Manufacture cost $250

Sell to distributor $350

Rep Price to retailer $400

Retail Price $575

 

There is a definite market for high end gear in all past times. If a manufacturer is able to cut a link out of the supply chain, then they can get their products to market cheaper. If they have to go through many distribution channels, there will be additional cost.

 

Some people honestly believe they will be better with that gear and some don't. There are enough different channels out there to get good deals and buy used and get the rod you want. If you believe Sage will help you cast better and you do cast better when you use it and you can afford it, go for it. If you prefer to buy 4 Temple Forks for the price of one Sage, go for that. At the end of the day...who cares, you got what you wanted and could afford.

 

Later,

[reevesr1]

My bag:

Titleist DCIs

Taylor made sand wedge

Cleveland Gap Wedge

Cleveland launcher 3 wd (several years old, but I love it)

Cleveland HiBore driver (don't get one unless you like to hit it long and straight)

Odyssey 2 ball blade putter

So I've bought into the golf equipment thing. It matters, matters, and matters.

 

Oh, Taylor Made and Titleist Pro V1s. Only name brand in golf for me.

 

Fishing

Reels:

2 Scierra XDPs,1 Bauer JM3 (I think) and a couple of Okumas

Rods

3 TFOs

1 Amundson Wind Warrior

1 Wayne Hanson Traveler shop rod

 

So no high end brand name gear for me, yet. I just don't feel I need it yet. But do I think a high end Sage is a better rod than a TFO? Well of course I do. Just don't think I need it. But to close my argument on this thread, I still don't buy into the idea they are ripping us off.

 

I also listened to the podcast from the Scott guy. I believe him. But it won't do anything for those who don't.

[jayjjones11]

How is it being a rip off when no one is forcing you to buy one? If you're not wanting a $800 dollar rod then don't buy one. Period.

 

 

[jonny5]

If Lance Armstrong were to ride my Mad-Max inspired commuter bike, and I were riding a fancy new carbon fiber cervello, I think he still might beat me in a race.

 

Know what I'm saying?

[jayjjones11]

OH!..........since when are they made in the states..as you suggested, they are exported to China , m8 , where they are assembled there, and the labour as you all know is extremely cheap

 

Where you hear that one?

[Jayhad]

OH!..........since when are they made in the states..as you suggested, they are exported to China , m8 , where they are assembled there, and the labour as you all know is extremely cheap...sorry to burst ur

 

 

1983, I think. But don't believe me call 1.800.533.3004. It is the # to Sage's office in Bainbridge, Washington. They will be more then happy to schedule a tour of the plant where you can view blanks being turned from start to finish.

 

 

[Wolfie]

1983, I think. But don't believe me call 1.800.533.3004. It is the # to Sage's office in Bainbridge, Washington. They will be more then happy to schedule a tour of the plant where you can view blanks being turned from start to finish.

 

never said about the production of the rods..but objected to what you said in regards to the assembly of them..they are shipped to China to cut down on the cost of labour..and that isn't the only rod maker either..so to my logic, if by sending out the assembly of the rods which is time consuming, and costly, then they should be able to reduce the cost of said rods and share their wealth, with the ppl you gave them the dollar in the first place.

 

..and i read in another post the part that the ppl in China are paid as much as we are, sorry, there is a very old saying that suites this perfectly...

bullshit baffles brains!

..

 

......................Wolfie

[Jayhad]

well wolfie, I won't argue with you over the interwebs, you are clearly right in everything you type.

 

But for others that know differently I have been to Bainbridge, and watched the process of rods being built. THere is more then enough avenues for people to use to find the truth about Sage being 100% built in the USA. One such avenue is the # i posted 1.800.533.3004

 

Plus why would they send Sage rods to China, when they could just use Redington's plant in Korea...... doesn't make to much sense in ROI side of things to have to seperate manufacturing plants in asia.

[SupremeLeader]

Sage do build their rods in Washington; their reels however, are another matter.

 

The first 2000 and 3000 series reels were made in the states and retailed for around $400 to $600. Sage then off-shored them to Korea. The reels were the same quality, but obviously the labor cost had gone down. The new retail price.........$400 to $600.

 

Sage and most rod companies gouge all of us. Have a look at some of the most technical spin fishing equipment one day and see what you have to pay to get the best; considerably less than fly gear.

 

The technology you pay for is complete BS; the same rod / technology that costs $600 this year will be half that price in three years. And anyone who thinks rod companies are developing new ground breaking technologies at the rate they claim needs their head examined.

 

One of the best things I saw Sage do was come out with the TCR.......hilarious! The 8 wt. was a 10 wt. XP; yes, you need to be a 'technical' caster to cast an 8 wt. line on a 10 wt. rod.

 

I have purchased some very expensive equipment in the past, but I don't think I'll ever spend more than $400 on a rod ever again......, and spending that much would require something very special.

[BBBrownie]

great fly fishing in russia and cuba lol. dont mind markup, just seems naive to think it hasnt effected our sport. I too have few hobbies outside golf and FF so like to have quality gear. Im just happeir when i pay 50 percent of the cost because the clubs/rods i buy are one year removed from the latest line offered by the manafacturer of choice. Nyet to z axis,Dah to xp

 

I'd love to fish Russia. Kamchatka is a dream-6 species of salmon and large steelhead returns. Very few anglers.

[BBBrownie]

I believe someone said in this topic that a good rod won't make your day better because fishing is about catching fish, not about standing in the water playing with your rod? I suppose we all look for different experiences, all have different reasons and connections, but I sure would have to say that my idea of fishing is MUCH different from yours! Of course I enjoy playing, landing, and admiring beautiful fish, big or small, but I equally enjoy the surrounding landscape and interaction with it, the solitude(depending where I am although I can ignore a lot when Im on the water) and the rhythm of the casts. My go-to rod for most trout fishing these days on rivers is a Sage XP. It casts like a dream. If I had a cheaper rod that felt that way to me, it would be my go to, but I haven't found that. I have a cheaper sage, I have a TFO and another rod I can't even recall the name of becuase it is that underwhelming. The XP puts my fly within inches everytime and throws buggers like you wouldn't believe. I know what the rod will do, just as im sure many of your favorite rods do as well, regardless of brand, they work for you. I CERTAINLY get less enjoyment out of fishing with a rod that i'm not feeling, as one part of my equation is lacking. Nice casts=happy place. Sure, short casts on small streams with stimmies for cutts doesn't warrant throwing with the XP, but man does it hum on the Bow, even the 'wood. So, to make a very long story short, we all look for a different experience, for a day to reach epic for me - the days I dream of all winter, and even pursue in BC in the winter- I need fish, tight casts, solitude, scenery. Was that ever convoluted!

[yak]

I believe someone said in this topic that a good rod won't make your day better because fishing is about catching fish, not about standing in the water playing with your rod? I suppose we all look for different experiences, all have different reasons and connections, but I sure would have to say that my idea of fishing is MUCH different from yours! Of course I enjoy playing, landing, and admiring beautiful fish, big or small, but I equally enjoy the surrounding landscape and interaction with it, the solitude(depending where I am although I can ignore a lot when Im on the water) and the rhythm of the casts. My go-to rod for most trout fishing these days on rivers is a Sage XP. It casts like a dream. If I had a cheaper rod that felt that way to me, it would be my go to, but I haven't found that. I have a cheaper sage, I have a TFO and another rod I can't even recall the name of becuase it is that underwhelming. The XP puts my fly within inches everytime and throws buggers like you wouldn't believe. I know what the rod will do, just as im sure many of your favorite rods do as well, regardless of brand, they work for you. I CERTAINLY get less enjoyment out of fishing with a rod that i'm not feeling, as one part of my equation is lacking. Nice casts=happy place. Sure, short casts on small streams with stimmies for cutts doesn't warrant throwing with the XP, but man does it hum on the Bow, even the 'wood. So, to make a very long story short, we all look for a different experience, for a day to reach epic for me - the days I dream of all winter, and even pursue in BC in the winter- I need fish, tight casts, solitude, scenery. Was that ever convoluted!

did you pay full price for the xp when it was the latest sage line or pick it for $350 when they discontinued the XP and came out with the z axis line? at $325-350 ( what I paid for my 2 XPs) I agree that they are worth every penny.

[theiceman2]

One thing to add here is you are paying for the warrenty. The warrenty on these things are crazy! What other gear can you snap in half and get a new one? The only one I can think of is a tilley hat.

 

 

Matt

[darrinhurst]

One thing to add here is you are paying for the warrenty. The warrenty on these things are crazy! What other gear can you snap in half and get a new one? The only one I can think of is a tilley hat.

 

 

Matt

And a Tilley is $100. Talk about paying too much......

[BBBrownie]

did you pay full price for the xp when it was the latest sage line or pick it for $350 when they discontinued the XP and came out with the z axis line? at $325-350 ( what I paid for my 2 XPs) I agree that they are worth every penny.

 

It was a few years ago, but I believe I paid around $450 for the XP. That isn't my point though, If I had paid $800 for it, I would still be every bit as happy, warranty is a past of it all, but the performance is outstanding. I also have a couple of steel/salmon sticks. One is an Echo that cost around $300, it is alright for chucking heavy weighted flies and has reeled in some pig Chinooks and a few nice steelies, but I picked up a new GLX 8 weight 10' last year that has turned the echo into a backup. There is no comparison in the action, the accuracy. I realize these are both higher priced rods I am fishing, but their performance has spoken to me and believe me, I've fished lower priced rods. My more moderate price rods do certainly catch fish still, my enjoyment just increases with fast action and a nice cast. Think cadillacs and tempos.

[yak]

It was a few years ago, but I believe I paid around $450 for the XP. That isn't my point though, If I had paid $800 for it, I would still be every bit as happy, warranty is a past of it all, but the performance is outstanding. I also have a couple of steel/salmon sticks. One is an Echo that cost around $300, it is alright for chucking heavy weighted flies and has reeled in some pig Chinooks and a few nice steelies, but I picked up a new GLX 8 weight 10' last year that has turned the echo into a backup. There is no comparison in the action, the accuracy. I realize these are both higher priced rods I am fishing, but their performance has spoken to me and believe me, I've fished lower priced rods. My more moderate price rods do certainly catch fish still, my enjoyment just increases with fast action and a nice cast. Think cadillacs and tempos.

if it wasnt discontinued then you likely paid more than that (my understanding is that sage doesnt allow retailers to put their current top of line rods on sale). my point is all makers rip you off but you can get around that by purchasing discontinued lines.wait a year or so and the $850 Zs will be selling for $350-400 as well.

ps. prefer the caddy but would buy one that was a year old and save myself 30 percent

[Taco]

Wouldn't know much about any of this marketing BS but do know this, look at the secondary used market what makers stuff was "good" or not. Used entry level ($2-300) offshore made graphite rods are 50-60 bucks used but used lighter line RPL+s still regularly bring 3 to 400 bucks (450 new) and I just watched a good used but now discontinued Sage 389LL bring $565 usd on evilbay, more than new. Y'all tell me, whats the better maker?

[AndyW]

Wouldn't know much about any of this marketing BS but do know this, look at the secondary used market what makers stuff was "good" or not. Used entry level ($2-300) offshore made graphite rods are 50-60 bucks used but used lighter line RPL+s still regularly bring 3 to 400 bucks (450 new) and I just watched a good used but now discontinued Sage 389LL bring $565 usd on evilbay, more than new. Y'all tell me, whats the better maker?

 

Ya can't beat the old brown sage rods. They have a cult like following.

 

[yak]

One thing to add here is you are paying for the warrenty. The warrenty on these things are crazy! What other gear can you snap in half and get a new one? The only one I can think of is a tilley hat.

 

 

Matt

snapping a tilley hat in half? that would be a neat trick. do you have to wet it down and freeze it first?

[bhurt]

snapping a tilley hat in half? that would be a neat trick. do you have to wet it down and freeze it first?

 

My tilley is one of my most prized possessions (by the way I bought mine for $40 US about 10 years ago)

 

I love the little trading card stories you get with the REAL TILLIES, the elephant story is by far the best story, also I love how they print the warrentyon the inside of the hat.

 

My tilley has gone through hell and back and still in great condition.

 

As for rods, you'll never ever pay for what it is actually worth. The same can go with anything you buy retail (I have over 15 years of retail experince) and almost everything we buy is marked up, that is just the business world and how things have been for a very long time.

 

If you do not like the price it is simply do not buy it, if you want the newest and latest thing well ponny up the bucks and pay for it.

 

Personally I have a 7wt 9foot SLT that I have only used 6 times and have broken the tip twice on it (most likely my fault as I probably hit it with streamers at night time) my sage rod is the only rod (with the exception of my TFO TRICX) that I have ever broken. But if I do that is what a warrenty is for, I got lots of rods so if I am down one rod I just pick up the other.

 

 

[Swede]

if it wasnt discontinued then you likely paid more than that (my understanding is that sage doesnt allow retailers to put their current top of line rods on sale). my point is all makers rip you off but you can get around that by purchasing discontinued lines.wait a year or so and the $850 Zs will be selling for $350-400 as well.

ps. prefer the caddy but would buy one that was a year old and save myself 30 percent

Your right top line rods dont go on sale. I was going to wait till the fall for some rod sales than pick up a few Z-AXIS, but was told they wouldnt be on sale only the old models. Now I bought my 2 Z's becauase I can and because I wanted to. I know theres alot of great rods out there for half the price or less but I didnt want one of them and i didnt want to wait 2 or 3 more years for a Z-AXIS. Only 4 piece Z's are 830$ the 2 piece is alot cheaper. Picked mine up for 679$ each which was a good deal. I was looking at the Orvis Helio's line of rods because my wife needed a light rod. She's petite and her arm gets tired fast But at 960$ a rod it was a little much.

 

I think we should just be happy that theres good rods out there for all budgets.

[markd]

if it wasnt discontinued then you likely paid more than that (my understanding is that sage doesnt allow retailers to put their current top of line rods on sale). my point is all makers rip you off but you can get around that by purchasing discontinued lines.wait a year or so and the $850 Zs will be selling for $350-400 as well.

 

Consider that the XP was out for around 8 years before they discontinued it. They added more rods to the Z-Axis lineup just last year, and the original rod has only been out for 2ish years. You could be waiting another 5+ years before they discontinue the Z-Axis.

[fishnbugdude]

Golf Bag:

 

Ping putter

Cleveland Wedge, 60 and 56

Cleveland Driver, 3 Wood and 3 recovery

 

Ping G10 Irons

 

Fly Stuff

 

389 LL Sage

370 Thomas and Thomas LPS

590 RPL+ Sage

710 Scott G series

990 RPLX Sage

 

Islander Reels (2)

Lamson Reels (2)

SA Mastery Reel (1)

 

Like the clubs as they are better than I. They fix my mistakes - very forgiving - and therefore make my outings more enjoyable. Did I overpay - yes I believe I did.

 

My fly rods - only the RPL+ I bought new. the Scott I bought used for $125. The 389 LL is (in my opinion) the best 3 wt fly rod ever made - or at least that I ever had the pleasure to cast.

 

My 5 wt Islander reel is a pure indulgence. Looks great, love the machining but is in no way "worth" the money I spent or will help me catch more fish. I love the look and feel and am happy I have it (it was on sale as it is the discontinued model).

 

Sure I "over pay" for many toys. I choose to in most cases - but normally look for them on sale or used. I have bought poor quality and regretted the purchase. I have never bought a quality item I liked and later thought "wish I never bought that" - other than maybe the odd useless impulse purchase.

 

I say buy the best you can - with the best components - that fits your style and you will likely never regret it. Buy lower quality and when you get the chance to play with a better rod you might.

 

As for the overpriced part - I believe they are - but economics is way over my head. I see things go on in my industry and others - doesn't make sense. Guess that's why they get paid the big bucks.

 

I'm content to try to live in my means - love life - enjoy the gifts and opportunities given to me - and try not to worry about the little things. Life is way too short.

 

 

 

 

[TimD]

Consider that the XP was out for around 8 years before they discontinued it. They added more rods to the Z-Axis lineup just last year, and the original rod has only been out for 2ish years. You could be waiting another 5+ years before they discontinue the Z-Axis.

 

It would be hard for someone to spend 800 on a rod and not say it is a great rod - possibly the best ever. Every new series of rods is lighter, faster and more accurate than any rod they have made before and I would not be surprised if it is more marketing and cosmetics than actual performance. I would love to see some sort of blind test between the XP and the Z-Axis - and maybe even the SP or the RPLXI+.

 

I am happy with my fishing equipment and I catch a lot of fish - the less I spend on equipment the more time and money I have to go fishing.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

 

 

[Swede]

I think what your paying for is the fact that there alot lighter and still have the strength and power to compete against any rod out there. Heres some shootouts from one of the best fly fisherman in the world. You will see there about as unbiased as you can get.

 

Visit My Website Sorry couldnt seem to link it without that coming up, but its George Andersons website.