Legality Of Motor Boats Above 22X

[Jayhad]

well Harps. Looks like actual science and knowledge has shut the crowd up. Well done.

really, paragraphs are now considered science? I see no peer reviewed papers supporting your wild dreams of erosion being posted....

 

I haven't said anything because there is no point in discussing topics with those of you that think anglers are the only ones that should be allowed to use the resource.

 

Don't be surprised when you see a jet running under crowchild this season

[Harps]

Yes, rainfall does have an impact.

But on most banks the run off is absorbed into soil and intercepted by vegetation before it gets to the steep portion. In areas where the banks are bare, there is often significant rainfall erosion, often in the form of rills and gullies.

Rainfall and surface runoff is a significant cause of sedimentation in our local watercourses. Much of it comes in at places of linear development (man-made river crossings, ditches at crossings, pipelines, etc), from agricultural fields (especially those with no buffers), and because of the "hardening" of our landscape (removal of wetlands which filter water, loss of floodplains, loss of tributaries that used to gather filed water in nice meanders, paving of areas, etc). It even is caused by all of the bank armouring and channel straightening that we have done to our rivers and creeks. Bare construction sites "have to" install sediment and erosion control measures to protect against that very thing.

Wakes can push more (resulting in deeper) water up the bank slope, which in turn can cause erosion- different/more than flooding and often more than rainfall. You said floods are worse than wakes, I refuted. Rainfall is a different topic- similar erosion on bare banks, not as bad in areas with vegetation preventing direct runoff.

Wake erosion would be one more human impact, another pile on the cumulative harm that we are causing, and something that could possibly be prevented/regulated.

And Jayhad,
I would post peer reviewed work, but there is no point in this type of forum. I have been dealing with river erosion for over the past decade and I currently work every day to protect our fishery from the impacts of erosion. If you are interested in the effects of sediment and turbidity look up some of the work of C. Newcombe, E. Shaw, P. Anderson, or D. Harper. You will see what even short pulses of increased turbidity can cause, especially when it is above background levels or in an abnormal season.

Eitherway, I clearly stated that there could be rule put in place to protect the sensitive areas if heavy jetboat use is to be expected/desired/controlled.

I have been on a jet on many of the rivers in Alberta, I'm not for or against them. I just want folks here to be completely clear with potential impacts of use (and I am having a really pissy week).

The RCMP have contacted me in the past about jetboats on certain small rivers, and I have passed on similar complaints to them.
Safety is the biggest concern about any fast motorized boats on crowded rivers.

[Harps]

You know what... F it,

 

Here are some peer reviewed reports on boat wakes.
http://www.hydrologynz.org.nz/downloads/20070417-030209-JoHNZ_2003_v42_2_McConchie.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rrr.3450090102/abstract
http://roundthelake.com/PIER%20WI%20DNR/lakes.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304392483900254

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02471995#page-1

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA122370

http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/(ASCE)0733-950X(1988)114%3A3(363)

This last one is a god one: Hydrodynamic impacts of commercial jet-boating on the Chilkat River, Alaska

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.183.3481&rep=rep1&type=pdf

You can also educate yourself with scholar.google.ca but many of the articles are restricted to those that have licenses.

 

There's a good old article from Alaska that talks about the increase in turbidity in a river from fishing boats drifting with anchors as well as wakes from motorized use. I'm not sure where I have it stored though and I can't remember the name of the river.

[Jayhad]

Thanks Harps, I appreciate fact over opinion. That said pretty much everything we do everyday has a negative impact on the earth, am I going to stop using my cars? am I going to stop using all my fun peices of coltan rich technology? am I going to stop walking along the shore on a well defined trail?

 

we all do harm and I would hope that some of us try to lessen our impact but to what point?

 

 

And Jayhad
I would post peer reviewed work, but there is no point in this type of forum. I have been dealing with river erosion for over the past decade and I currently work every day to protect our fishery from the impacts of erosion. If you are interested in the effects of sediment and turbidity look up some of the work of C. Newcombe, E. Shaw, P. Anderson, or D. Harper. You will see what even short pulses of increased turbidity can cause, especially when it is above background levels or in an abnormal season.

 

You know what... F it,

 

Here are some peer reviewed reports on boat wakes.
http://www.hydrologynz.org.nz/downloads/20070417-030209-JoHNZ_2003_v42_2_McConchie.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/rrr.3450090102/abstract
http://roundthelake.com/PIER%20WI%20DNR/lakes.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304392483900254

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02471995#page-1

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA122370

http://ascelibrary.org/doi/abs/10.1061/(ASCE)0733-950X(1988)114%3A3(363)

This last one is a god one: Hydrodynamic impacts of commercial jet-boating on the Chilkat River, Alaska

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.183.3481&rep=rep1&type=pdf

You can also educate yourself with scholar.google.ca but many of the articles are restricted to those that have licenses.

 

There's a good old article from Alaska that talks about the increase in turbidity in a river from fishing boats drifting with anchors as well as wakes from motorized use. I'm not sure where I have it stored though and I can't remember the name of the river.

[Harps]

Thanks Harps, I appreciate fact over opinion. That said pretty much everything we do everyday has a negative impact on the earth, am I going to stop using my cars? am I going to stop using all my fun peices of coltan rich technology? am I going to stop walking along the shore on a well defined trail?

 

we all do harm and I would hope that some of us try to lessen our impact but to what point?

That's just a red herring.

 

Yes everything has an impact, I'm so tired of that argument... seems to be something they teach in the oilpatch here in Alberta.

 

Mrmagnan posted the AK article about boat erosion in support of Gil's original assertion. Then everybody jumped on them for suggesting that wakes could cause an impact.

Well, they do.

 

You originally asked about the legality of using a jet in the city. Not allowed at this current time, due to municipal by-laws that trump the Fed Nav Act.

 

I suggested some solutions to real issues that could be brought up against jet boat use, and you continue to assert that it's your right.

Ignoring all the issues around user safety (low visibility drunks can get run over on the water...), crowding, noise disturbance to people and wildlife, and the introduction of hydrocarbons... the wake disturbance issue could be controlled by enforcing no wake zones, adding higher sensitivity avoidance or no motor areas, or controlling motorized "upstream lanes" through certain areas of the Bow.

 

It's not up to an individual to decide what's an acceptable limit, it's up to society. And on this issue, society/gov't has deemed fast moving boats to be unsafe in the city.

If you don't agree go to you councilor and complain.

But you can sure as hell bet that if you go to them with that "holier than thou" attitude about everything having impacts, you'll get nowhere.

But if you go with a plan to minimize your impact and set some rules and guidlines, you'll be seen as somebody that they could work with.

 

As it stands, your entitled attitude that "everybody wreaks *hit, so why shouldn't you", will give all of us anglers a bad name. And forget the city thinking that there are reasonable jet-boaters out there to work with.

 

We all can make efforts to reduce our impacts, and it will result in positive change, whether it is less need for hydropower or just better fishing.

 

And still nowhere am I telling you to stop driving or not to use your jet. I'm just saying you shouldn't work so hard to be ignorant of your own footprint.

[Jayhad]

 

As it stands, your entitled attitude that "everybody wreaks *hit, so why shouldn't you", will give all of us anglers a bad name. And forget the city thinking that there are reasonable jet-boaters out there to work with.

 

We all can make efforts to reduce our impacts, and it will result in positive change, whether it is less need for hydropower or just better fishing.

 

And still nowhere am I telling you to stop driving or not to use your jet. I'm just saying you shouldn't work so hard to be ignorant of your own footprint.

you have clearly misunderstood what I stated

[Harps]

I apologize if I misunderstood.

Like I said, I've been having one of those weeks and I'm being short with everybody, which isn't really acceptable.

What did you mean?

[WyomingGeorge]

All of you misunderstand Jayhad.

 

In person he's an incredible pussycat, dispensing fishing knowledge and insight to strangers and stepping out of the way so they can fish.

 

If you encounter him he'll probably lie down on the ground purring and hope for a tummy-rub...before he gives you a couple of free flies and tells you about three great secret spots.

 

The raging lunatic is pure on-line schtick. He's trying to provoke vociferous fulminations from the easily guiled...and it has been a multi-week delight to watch the fun!

[fishinglibin]

He's trying to provoke vociferous fulminations from the easily guiled.. LIKE !!!!

[Guest Sneaky]

jay what have you done.

[troutlover]

IMO there has been a lot of great info and perspective revealed in this discussion. I wish the forum would have more of this. Thanks for raising the issue, sharing your opinions and providing great information everyone.

[Weedy1]

Jayhad. You could probably sneak one of these up the river without anyone noticing.

 

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-powerboats-motorboats-NEW-2014-RMX-MINI-JET-ALUMINUM-JET-BOAT-HULL-W0QQAdIdZ559169901

 

[Jayhad]

Weedy, don't be showing that stuff yet..... The one I'm building will virtually be exactly the same but just a tad bigger, and about 220 HP woohoo

 

Think about the possibilities... Sheep, Highwood, Upper elbow, north raven, Jumping Pound, Fallen Timber..... the small rivers are endless

[Jayhad]

[Gil]

Looks like it would have been great water to fish. Good luck with those things buggering it up...

[dutchie]

Jayhad. You could probably sneak one of these up the river without anyone noticing.

 

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-powerboats-motorboats-NEW-2014-RMX-MINI-JET-ALUMINUM-JET-BOAT-HULL-W0QQAdIdZ559169901

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IyMMrWKfQ

Jayhad. You could probably sneak one of these up the river without anyone noticing.

 

http://calgary.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-boats-watercraft-powerboats-motorboats-NEW-2014-RMX-MINI-JET-ALUMINUM-JET-BOAT-HULL-W0QQAdIdZ559169901

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1IyMMrWKfQ

 

 

 

OMG , Be careful , might wash some of them rocks away

[agbff]

Jet boaters are people too.

[Guest Jorge]

Not having a jet boat, but considering buying one here is my take on it;

 

• If there were more public boat launches along the Bow I would be more inclined to support a motor ban. I like floating the river in my drift boat, but impossible to do unless you have a full day to set aside because of the lack of public boat launches
• I would think more damage is done to the fishery from the "professionals" out there that hit the same pools, and pound the same banks, day after day, week after week, because they are getting paid, and looking for a tip.
• From Seebee dam downstream the Bow is a tailwater, none of these high water events are natural, they have been somewhat mitigated by water management. Heck in 2012 we had run-off until August because of the Spray Resevoir and Goat creek releasing water. Take a look at the flow tables and you will see.
• The 3 flood events that I have seen on the Bow without a doubt have created more bank erosion than 1000 years of jet boating ever would. Some of my favorite banks are gone!

[WyomingGeorge]

Good points Jorge.

 

I'm right in the middle on this one, an unusual place for me.

 

It's impossible for jet boats not to be annoying, no matter how courteously piloted. Then again, so what? Multiple piercings and full-body tattoos are annoying as well, but I wouldn't ban them. They're just ways for people to express their individuality and freedom.

 

I have been cut off and poached by discourteously rowed drift boats far more often than by jet boats, including by rowers who almost certainly knew better. But I obviously don't want to ban drift boats.

 

A large proportion of our society seems to be of the view that if something exists, it ought to be government-regulated, and if one or two negative aspects can be asserted, the assertion by itself is proof the thing ought to be banned.

 

There are negative aspects to jet boating. Is that proof by itself it ought to be banned?

 

Jayhad, if I see you hurtling up and down the Bow, crashing through Harvie Passage, spinning doughnuts below the Centre St. Bridge, and shooting rooster tails along the Bowness eddies, I won't rat you out -- I'll drink a toast!

[Guest Jorge]

I have searched, but cannot find a bylaw that mentions motorized boat ban on the Bow?

[dutchie]

I have searched, but cannot find a bylaw that mentions motorized boat ban on the Bow?

 

Worse thing that might happen to you is a ticket , and that's if you stop and chat with them , just give a big wave and say hi ,

 

Fish & wildlife won't do anything , it's got nothing to do with them ,

Have fun and enjoy it

[bcubed]

Not a bylaw, it's an exception to the Canada Shipping Act

[Jayhad]

Worse thing that might happen to you is a ticket , and that's if you stop and chat with them , just give a big wave and say hi , Fish & wildlife won't do anything , it's got nothing to do with them , Have fun and enjoy it

I agree with you Dutch, I think little will come out of this adventure we embark upon

[Jayhad]

 

Not having a jet boat, but considering buying one here is my take on it;

 

• If there were more public boat launches along the Bow I would be more inclined to support a motor ban. I like floating the river in my drift boat, but impossible to do unless you have a full day to set aside because of the lack of public boat launches

I couldn't agree more, the section I drift is over 20K, put-in in the north and there isn't a public launch until Glenmore. Due to the flooding the wier is closed for the next 3 years for repairs. So now one can't take out on public lands if drifting the North-city section, a small jet solves that problem.

 

I wonder how big an electric motor I would need to pull my drifter back upstream, haha

[bcubed]

electric is still illegal