Legality Of Motor Boats Above 22X

[bcubed]

Riparian vegetation stabilizes the bank during subsequent high water events. This is not silly.

 

And if you don't believe that, float the bow and look at the banks that survived with little to no damage...

[Weedy1]

I think fast food has an enormous impact on the bank stability. All you fat fly fisherman waddling around in that water does some severe impact.

[Vagabond]

Paul

 

One couldn't run a boat with a prop on the majority of the Bow..... .

Nonsense....gimme a 22' square stern canoe and a short shaft 7.5 and I'll show ya Police to Glenmore no problem.

[DonAndersen]

Guys,

 

Last I looked the world was up to 6,500,000,000 people many of which fish the Bow. So if a few hundred or so got run over, who would really care. The loss would be be made up in just one day of popping out babies.

And just think, would it reduce crowding on the Bow - not a lot.

Now where do it order my 300 HP jet sled?

 

Don

[Vagabond]

 

Guys,Last I looked the world was up to 6,500,000,000 people many of which fish the Bow. So if a few hundred or so got run over, who would really care. The loss would be be made up in just one day of popping out babies.And just think, would it reduce crowding on the Bow - not a lot.Now where do it order my 300 HP jet sled?Don

Haha....surplus of people aside,that is in fact the reason I agree with the motor ban within the city.Given the population of CGY being what it is,allowing motorcraft imho would create an absolute gong show,because it's not just anglers that would take advantage of the recreation opportunity,you're opening the city to jet skis/PWCs,water skiers,sports boats,and on and on.....aside from being simply annoying,there is a very real potential for the Bow to become a downright dangerous place to wade or float with every yahoo in CGY with a lil expendable income ripping up and down the river all summer long.

I see plenty enuf bitchn here over quadders,dirt bikers,and even jet drifters below Police "ruining" angler's peace and solitude....I don't think speed boats in the city is a can'o worms anybody needs to be opening.

[Jayhad]

I don't think speed boats in the city is a can'o worms anybody needs to be opening.

no where did anyone mention speed boats, a 17' jon with a 60/40 would be plenty.

 

More importantly why do think you other users shouldn't be able to access the Bow?

 

You can run jets on the section above bears pawand below 22 X and those areas are not crawling with jet skis/PWCs,water skiers,sports boats,and on and on.....

[Vagabond]

Well ya don't see many party rafters or bikinis(unfortunately) below 22x neither,but if you open the city to motors,the potential for a significant increase in boat traffic exists.

I just think it's fine the way it is,although I would love to be able to launch from 22 and motor back up at end of day,I'm willing to sacrifice that convenience rather then turn the "relatively quiet" city stretch into a drunken aquatic racetrack for PWCs.

One compromise that "might" work would be to have a max HP restriction in the city,for instance 9.9hp for prop engines....but admittedly I don't know enuf about jet outboards or PWCs to even begin to suggest what might be a reasonable max HP for them?

[bcubed]

no where did anyone mention speed boats, a 17' jon with a 60/40 would be plenty.

 

More importantly why do think you other users shouldn't be able to access the Bow?

 

You can run jets on the section above bears pawand below 22 X and those areas are not crawling with jet skis/PWCs,water skiers,sports boats,and on and on.....

 

Just like a 17' john with a 40/30 is plenty, yet last year there was a 22' Fraser river boat going for a rip (and i'd love to hear how him running a few feet off the banks isn't causing damage to the riparian area...let alone the amount of fry he'd be crushing)...With you spending so much time in the city, you probably havent seen the evolution of the jet boats below town, from jons to power drifters to jet skis and speed boats (rooster tails and all)..Hell, there was even a jet boat/air-boat mix a couple years ago. You could hear that thing coming for an hour...

 

my point? Just because it didn't happen immediately, it is slowly happening more and more every year.

 

5 years ago, it was almost unheard of to see a jet....now it's unheard of not to...you really want that in the city as well?

[bighopper]

Just an aside----there have been some days when there have been numerous party rafters, bikini hatches, and some Jet Skis below 22X.

 

One day in particular several years ago during a heat wave of plus 31 to 32 C temperatures (I think it was during a September Labour Day Weekend), we had to park our drift boat several times in a stretch below Policeman's in order to avoid the constant ongoing raft and bikini traffic. There were even 4 or 5 law enforcement officer-types on jet skis going back and forth all over the place. In fact, they were the main problem since they seemed be mainly checking out all the bikini-occupied rafts, while leaving a trail of wake and noise going from one to another of these for interrogation and close-up views.

[DonAndersen]

Nothing like a horny enforcement type trying to impress the ladies.

 

And just think, we could have a new Western. CDN sport. Playing Dodge ball with rafters.

 

Don

[Jayhad]

Just like a 17' john with a 40/30 is plenty, yet last year there was a 22' Fraser river boat going for a rip (and i'd love to hear how him running a few feet off the banks isn't causing damage to the riparian area...let alone the amount of fry he'd be crushing)...With you spending so much time in the city, you probably havent seen the evolution of the jet boats below town, from jons to power drifters to jet skis and speed boats (rooster tails and all)..Hell, there was even a jet boat/air-boat mix a couple years ago. You could hear that thing coming for an hour...

 

my point? Just because it didn't happen immediately, it is slowly happening more and more every year.

 

5 years ago, it was almost unheard of to see a jet....now it's unheard of not to...you really want that in the city as well?

so those boaters, river users shouldn't have access to the river? a rooster tail oh my, yes fly anlgers should be the only ones to use the Bow.

 

You are fishing in a river in a city of 1,000,000+. People are going to use the Bow, most of the time in ways you don't approve of

 

It's no secret i drift the northern section, on a hot weekend there might be 5000 rafts on the river, and the river gets busy, loud and loaded with trash. I still boat trouts, many times from under rafts or water they just rafted over. And over a 150 drifts I've only ever had one raft bump into my boat.

 

The CFD runs 3 290 hp inboard jets everyday from april to nov, you can hear them coming from kms away, they go by pretty darn fast sometimes and run a pretty large wake. There's already a considerable amount of jet boat traffic from bearspaw to 17th.

[Vagabond]

Well that settles it,if CFD can run THREE rescue boats on the Bow,it only makes sense that any and all that can afford a snowmobile should be able to deek boulders with PWCs at 55mph all summer long....with PLPD insurance of course,no insurance would be just stupid.

[DonAndersen]

I just don't get it! Every weekend it's a free for all in the bush. 'bout anything goes. What is fair is fair. If the population comes up here and does what it damn well pleases, just what is wrong with treating the city the same way. How about a mud bog in Fish Creek Park?

If you all can run jet boats up all the rivers working you way around both canoes and kayaks, what makes the city off limits?

 

Don

 

 

 

[Vagabond]

I just don't get it! Every weekend it's a free for all in the bush. 'bout anything goes. What is fair is fair. If the population comes up here and does what it damn well pleases, just what is wrong with treating the city the same way. How about a mud bog in Fish Creek Park?If you all can run jet boats up all the rivers working you way around both canoes and kayaks, what makes the city off limits? Don

Speaking of Fish Creek Park,if the city were to repeal the no motor by-law,could not the province just simply say no motors within Fish Creek Provincial Park?

Kinda makes the city by-law moot,no?

[bcubed]

The city will never repeal the no-powered craft, with the amount of effort it took to get an exemption to the TC regs. If it ever even got brought up (which is laughable), They'll look at the number of rescues they have to perform on non-powered craft, and just dread some guy going over the weir in his house boat.... Won't happen.

[eagleflyfisher]

It's seems like everyone has the impression of the JET BOATERS are all ripping around, dodging drift boats, shooting rooster tails, stereo type red necks.

Bull crap, this is my 19th season with a jet & for the most part never had much of a problem.

The boat is used for transportation, it gets me to water I want to fish.

10 years ago maybe a dozen jets used the river the odd time. Now probably 30 plus are launching from Mac, carsland or police.

2 years ago the sport jet 18 footers were using police and were there not to fish but do donuts & be a pain in the ass.

Usually the big thunder jets are only seen @ high water but rarely. Probably got the itch to run there 75k boats.

Before I ever got a jet I used to go with a friend who had a jet & launch under the calf robe bridge.

Pretty quiet back then , no troubles at all with dodging rafts etc.. on the water. If its as busy as people say , rafts etc i would say no jets above the city limits.

As far as people being pissed off about jets in general it's not people its "fly fisherman " they are very important you know.

Most of the boat users are good out there, some are learning.

[Vagabond]

Actually met a fella camping on the Bulkley last fall that uses a PWC to scoot up and down the river.Seemed like a pretty cool idea really?Got me thinkn for Bow $2-3K for old SeaDoo is a lot cheaper then a jet powered drifter,just not very drift friendly?

[Hawgstoppah]

so what you (jet boat supporter) folk are trying to say is that you feel a flood does more damage than you do? Really?? That's the one post you would use to lean on in support of your argument here?

 

A flood happens during high water season. Then the waters recede leaving trout and bug producing riparian zones along river banks. The erosion of those areas happens enough the way mother nature intended it too.... ONCE a year during high water. It shouldn't have to happen 853 times per day in August too.

 

Just like the quadders up wrecking the Alberta wilderness, you ARE wrecking the river. Period. End of discussion.

 

Do you have a right to do so?

 

Sure... as much right as the folks ripping up the Oldman area. Do people who can't stand it have a right to be pissed off about it? you're darned right we do.

 

Do we have a right to speak up and be loud about it? YOU BET

 

**back to your regularly scheduled programming**

[WyomingGeorge]

I'm not a jet-boater, and I find them annoying.

 

But to opponents, some perspective: it's simple physics that a large river's own hydraulic power is thousands of times that of a jetboat, and the water it moves is millions of times that of a jetboat. The erosion caused by continually moving water that is even slightly higher than normal is obviously -- or it should be obvious -- vastly greater than that of a transient event like a jetboat passing by.

 

The two or more posters who claim that high water happens once a year are mistaken. The water on the Bow rises several to numerous times per year, after every significant rain event and dam release. The erosion caused every time the water comes up even inches is vastly higher than that caused by jetboats. I have been out in normal rain events and have seen the river rise from 120 cm/s or so to 200 cm/s in a couple of hours, at which point the river wasn't just ripping sediment off the banks, it started to cause portions of muddy, rain-soaked banks to collapse into the river, cubic metres at a time. How many pounds of suspended sediment might there have been per cubic metre, hurtling downstream?

 

One would require earthmoving equipment to equal this effect. It seems unlikely a jetboat would suffice.

 

In addition, describing annual runoff as causing an event "once" is misleading. If a given year's runoff lasts four weeks, then we have four weeks of continuous erosion, 24 hours a day. The cumulative effect is substantial.

 

Emotions are high on this one and opinions are strong, but we need to keep facts and physics in mind.

 

Again, this is coming from someone who doesn't really like jet boats.

[Vagabond]

I'd agree with George,I don't beleive jets contribute significantly at all to erosion on Bow or any other river for that matter.I would think erosion from boat wakes is more of a lake/stillwater issue?

Aside from that,most of the Bow for most of the year the water level is below any soil that might erode and contained within the riverbed/beach rocks.

....and no,I don't own a jet neither,and I still don't think motors in the city is a good idea only because I think it would be a gong show.

[Harps]

Flood erosion is very different from that caused by wakes. Splashes up the bank that run down have a completely different impact than rising flood waters.

In a flood situation, there is much more that is impacting the whole channel, areas of constriction where the water moves faster, backwater areas where water moves slower, steep sections, flat sections, etc, etc. Deep areas, steep areas, and flow constrictions will have the most force, and in those areas the banks may be eroded. In other areas the flood water will deposit material... shallow areas, flat areas, areas with hight friction zones and flow disturbance- like vegetated banks, floodplains, etc. These areas will have fine materials piled on them that will vegetate if undisturbed.

From wakes (waves, splashing), water running down a bank is running down at a higher slope than water running adjacent to the bank. Splashed water running down a steep slope will cause more erosion than deep water in a flooding stream.

Material could be removed from the bank based on the type of material and the potential of the flowing water to overcome the tractive force that holds that material in place. That is solely based on the slope of the bank, how high the water gets splashed, the amount of water, and the size of the material.

Tractive force (how much force something will take before it starts to move) in water is based on the slope and the depth of flow.

Water flowing down a bank is much steeper than down the streambed and that steepness often makes up for the lack of depth of the water flowing down the bank. On top of that, you have the initial impact (drop) erosion of water hitting the surface under pressure. Like raindrops this initial impact can dislodge bank materials and initiate the movement of those materials into the stream (collisions of particles can overcome that initial force required to get that material moving).

 

So yes, erosion caused by wakes can be worse than that caused by flooding, even in a river system.
But... it comes down to amounts. Lots of wave action will mean no vegetation growing on materials deposited by floods along the banks. It will mean it is harder for vegetation to establish on steeper banks that have suffered mass wasting or slumped. A single wave, no issue. A few a day, maybe sustainable..., a wave an hour???

 

Ignoring all the issues around user safety (low visibility drunks can get run over on the water...), crowding, noise disturbance to people and wildlife, and the introduction of hydrocarbons... the wake disturbance issue could be controlled by enforcing no wake zones, adding higher sensitivity avoidance or no motor areas, or controlling motorized "upstream lanes" through certain areas of the Bow.

[DonAndersen]

I'd agree with George,I don't beleive jets contribute significantly at all to erosion on Bow or any other river for that matter.I would think erosion from boat wakes is more of a lake/stillwater issue?

Aside from that,most of the Bow for most of the year the water level is below any soil that might erode and contained within the riverbed/beach rocks.

....and no,I don't own a jet neither,and I still don't think motors in the city is a good idea only because I think it would be a gong show.

And from one who puts up with a gong show every weekend in my area, just what is wrong with a gong show. At least your bikini clad babes don't come with assault rifles and cannisters of ammo.

If you folks kept the gong show in the city, the people out in the country would really appreciate it.

What's fair is fair. Please don't export your knot heads out here. We got plenty of our own.

 

 

Don

[Hawgstoppah]

well Harps. Looks like actual science and knowledge has shut the crowd up. Well done.

[mrmomar]

well Harps. Looks like actual science and knowledge has shut the crowd up. Well done.

 

Yes Harps excellent post thank you.

[WyomingGeorge]

Water running down a slope. Sounds eerily familiar, somehow. What could it be from?

 

I've got it: rainfall!

 

Gentleman, once again, from someone who doesn't like jetboats, the kinetic energy from a transient event like a jetboat is a microscopic fraction of the kinetic energy and water displacement delivered by nature, whatever direction you describe it as occurring.

 

Any heavy rain event results in "vertical movement", i.e., drainage, which moves soil, silt, clay and small rocks into the river. Again, you can see it with your own eyes, occurring by the cubic foot and more during heavy rains along any sandy or muddy bank, often from many metres above the water line.

 

There are good arguments against jetboats on the river, especially within the city. But panic over erosion on a river like the Bow just isn't one of them.