Is It Time For A Serious Discussion About This Forum And Fishing Reports

[Smitty]

From another thread, I am quoting Harps:

 

"Pictures and posts identifying exact location and technique have always been frowned on this forum."

 

I get what Harps is saying, I respect and understand his point of view.

 

But I disagree. (somewhat)

 

I just checked; there are no less than 11 subforums on FFC dedicated to reporting where people of fished. How could we claim that location reporting is frowned upon? Ok, I deliberately just took his words out of context: he's saying both exact location and exact technique. Which I can see what he's saying.

 

But nevertheless, all fishing reports are forms are hot-spotting - its simply a matter of degree. And while I don't care alot (but I do a little) about whether a hot-spot gets outed in Eastern Canada, or even some parts of BC (and these forums aren't used alot anyways), Harps got me thinking about the following:

 

Is it time to curtail, limit, restrict, whatever label you want, the fishing reports section - particularly for Alberta? Sure, give us all the Bow-Crow reports you like - surely THOSE ships of sailed, but what about other waters - particularly flowing waters? Should the moderators develop a policy where 1st-2nd-3rd-4th stage tributaries are protected by not having them named (or the names whitewashed out)? Should sections of the other, lesser known but still-big rivers also be eliminated from being publicly mentioned?

 

I can speak for northern Alberta; I wouldn't want to name several Atha-B tribs that contain those precious namesake rainbows, and, alternatively, I'm quite content to have everyone buy into the stereotype that the LSR is the "only" productive grayling fishery within 3 hrs of Edmonton. Selfish? Sure, but I'd like to think that all that water north of hwy 11 that seem so incredibly fragile should remain relatively anonymous. You won't see me naming any spots anymore (and haven't for awhile).

 

Its a question I pose to moderators and the long-time and/or frequent users of the FFC.

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

Smitty

[Harps]

I cringe every time I read a title labelled about a specific creek... but most of the time they don't mention access points or things like that.

For the most part there is enough water, so there isn't a problem.

 

But...

Most folks are lazy and don't want to do the work for themselves... and that's fine. Taco posts tons of creek names, but 90% of the readers here aren't going to make the effort to explore each access they can find on a map for one that produces fish bigger than 6inches. They are going to go to the spot from FFC that was shown on the Livingstone with a big fish picture, or the spot on the Oldman that produced 17in fish (which is a big trout anywhere in the world except the Bow ). They will go to the easiest fishing possible.

 

When you have something posted online like "Frenchman's Creek at the wooden bridge is fishing hot with green drakes right now", I bet you see people out there at the next available light.

 

 

So when it comes to hotspotting... naming a launch where you started or saying you fished Oldman River tribs is fine. Telling water conditions of a river is fine.

Naming an access point, flies, etc is a little overboard, unless you are privately helping somebody out (for example I'd give some pointers to someone over beer or through a PM- but I look at their past posts first as I'd hate to have some of my quieter fishing spots out on the forums).

[flyfishfairwx]

I cringe every time I read a title labelled about a specific creek... but most of the time they don't mention access points or things like that.

For the most part there is enough water, so there isn't a problem.

 

But...

Most folks are lazy and don't want to do the work for themselves... and that's fine. Taco posts tons of creek names, but 90% of the readers here aren't going to make the effort to explore each access they can find on a map for one that produces fish bigger than 6inches. They are going to go to the spot from FFC that was shown on the Livingstone with a big fish picture, or the spot on the Oldman that produced 17in fish (which is a big trout anywhere in the world except the Bow ). They will go to the easiest fishing possible.

 

When you have something posted online like "Frenchman's Creek at the wooden bridge is fishing hot with green drakes right now", I bet you see people out there at the next available light.

 

 

So when it comes to hotspotting... naming a launch where you started or saying you fished Oldman River tribs is fine. Telling water conditions of a river is fine.

Naming an access point, flies, etc is a little overboard, unless you are privately helping somebody out (for example I'd give some pointers to someone over beer or through a PM- but I look at their past posts first as I'd hate to have some of my quieter fishing spots out on the forums).

 

X1

 

or for those that must have it their way

 

+1

 

[LastBoyScout]

Well I hate to admit that if I mention locations on the forum I almost always lie, I'm sure you have all heard about fishermen.

[Taco]

I ceased to worry about internet hotspottin' the day I caught multiple 16-17-18-19 inch fish right through the middle of random camping hell. TMM it only become an issue if you don't have the built in flexibility to fish somewhere else when you discover someone fishin' "your" starting point or honey hole.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

This is redic!! if you only know how to fish 1 style and a few spots then sure i can see how you would think these are bad places to post, but the DogP, JumpingP and so on are no secret to anyone. If you really want to keep your spots quiet then quit the forums and close your Facebook. Not trying to he a hater its just the nature of a public forum.

[Ricinus]

I think the damage has already been done. Between OHV's and the Internet, there aren't many spots that don't get fished. By the first or second week in July most of the Eastern Slopes has been hammered and each year it just gets worse. I may PM someone who I feel will protect the fishery, but mostly I keep my info to myself. To give you an idea how much info can be gleaned, I have a notepad filled with detailed info highlighting from the Crow to the Athab. I realy doubt you can but the cork back in the bottle, but if like Taco says, the conditions are right there is still some good fishing to be had in unlikely places.

 

Mike

 

[dube]

Well, my absolute main goal when flyfishing is to be alone. Period.

Whenever this topic comes up it seems the main idea is that folks should be more adventurous and find some water for themselves, it's more rewarding to stumble across a "hotspot" than to be spoon fed directions to fish. I started flyfishing before I went "online" so options were limited in terms of getting the lowdown on where to go.

 

Smitty,

I cut my teeth fishing for grayling in some of those tiny creeks and caught those little rainbows before I even knew what they were. Of course I moved on to bigger rivers and bigger fish further south, getting sucked into the high gradient freestone rivers that I now love so much. I went back to my one little creek a few years back and was sadly dissapointed, barely a fish to be found. Lots of boot tracks and honestly it was logged so hard I could barely recognise it. It was a sad trip. I don't imagine I'll ever be back there. I think the main reason I was so dissapointed was because it was not how I remembered it. I had these really strong memories of catching my first fish with a flyrod in a creek that I came across by reading Mitchells books and magazine and found by using oilfield maps my old man gave me. The memories I had were more to do with the adventures I had learning to flyfish and less to do with the fishing itself. There was and still is something so awesome about going to those spots that you haven't read about the day before on a fishing board. I've spent a lot of time with a map driving around in circles trying to find acsess to a new spot, almost sweating with anticipation. Sometimes I win and sometimes not but at the end of the day I always get what I came for and that is a day of fishing.

 

I've since moved to Canmore and now have a whole new region to explore, stoking the fire so to speak. Last summer was epic to me because I figured out a few rivers that had stumped me in the past and my excitement for this upcoming season can hardly be contained. I'm already doing research on spots that I've never read about on this board and dreaming about what I might find there.

 

At the end of the day, like is always stated, there is no such thing as secret waters anymore but there are still so many special places that I think we should all do what we can to keep them that way. For me it's easy because I fish alone and don't really care to show off pictures or stories on the internet, I'm out there solely for my own selfish reasons.

 

Long story short, if I could give one piece of advice to a newb flyangler it would be to get out there and explore. A day of fishing can be so much more than just having something on the end of the line. Get out there, roll down the windows, crank up your fave summer road tunes, drive down some deadend roads, get stuck, fish just one more corner, cast one more time. It's worth it!

 

Good topic, interested to see where it goes.

Tight lines y'all.

[Guest Grinr]

Excellent post Dube....and great forum handle too,lol.

I'd say your experience somewhat mirrors my own?I spent thousands of dollars on gas and wore out more than a few pairs of waders on goose chases and fish stories long before the tell-all message board was invented,and I cringe when I see those special gems that I did "discover" pasted on the net for cooler filling fish hogs to exploit.

At least 2 FF Forums that I frequent have a firm policy against "hotspotting" and it's frowned upon by at least a few others that I visit......and I think that's how it should be.

If somebody wants to show off some pics from a good day on The Bow,or share their experience from a day on an "un-named" trib of the Crowsnest,that's fine,but that's as detailed as it should be in terms of specific location IMHO?

[jayjjones11]

I agree with Grinr. Show pictures, or whatever. But indicating where, what and anything else is not required, and not doing any benefit for yourself or the fishery. If someone recognizes the spots, its because they've already been there before. Want to know the conditions of a river of interest? Post but ask for replies in PMs. Need help with bugs? Buy a BOOK...Theres 3500 members on this forum, plus guests. That's a lot of hotspotting that can occur. Spend a minute on the 'fishing report' area, and you'll likely feel depressed. The handholding is insane.

 

I'm sure that there has been at least 1 moment for every member on this forum that they thought 'oh no, don't mention that spot'. So why not eliminate it entirely?

 

time to kill the 'fishing report' area.

[reevesr1]

Who is hotspotting really? Most people who fish the Bow say the Bow. Or maybe Fish Creek Park, or may say in the city or south of the city. Some will say where they floated (which is a shocker!). But not too many people say what creek they fished, other than the Liv, or Crow, or Oldman. When and if they do, they get shouted down pretty fast.

 

I see no issue telling people flies either. For the most part, it is a generic "stone fly" or "worm" or "EHC". Not too often does someone say "a #16 flash back PT with the tail clipped fished in moderate water and fish were taking it on the swing." Sometimes people tell me that cutties are taking #12 green drakes in August and September. Really? I better go buy some.

 

I fish some busy rivers, and I fish remote ones. The remote ones I have to myself. I'd never put them on a forum, nor have I ever even read of them. If I want to be alone, I know lots of places to go, including the heavily fished bow river. And I've been doing this for a grand total of 5 years now. It ain't that hard.

 

I live 5 minutes from the Bow. I fish some of the most heavily fished water there is. I almost never have to change plans on my trips. But I don't leave my house at 1 PM, get to the river and say "holy crap, where did all the people come from?" I fish off times, learn the water like the back of my hand, and don't often leave disappointed. If I get to a spot where people are, I have never not been able to find fishable water near by with nobody there.

 

Tempest, meet teapot.

 

Edit: By the way, I'm keeping my dead burbot spot to myself!

[jayjjones11]

Why do people feel like they have to say where they were fishing? Say you fished the Bow, what do you get out of telling the forum you fished the Bow, or Oldman? Why not just say "got out for a little fishing, heres some photos". Mentioning any rivers is not required, and if people were interested they could private message you and get a response. Why does it matter at all where you were fishing that day, the only one it should concern is yourself!

[CF8]

I most often shy away from these types of discussions but, I'll share my experience with this board... When I first joined this board(I was a little late to the party), I thought - wow - a place where I can share reports and such with other like minded people. I will admit that I never thought about the consequences of naming a particular stretch of river, because to be honest it never really crossed my mind how many people frequent boards such as these. I posted a report about a particular spot and my PM box was filled shortly thereafter with blasts from a number of people here... At the time it bugged me a bit, but those people did have a point. I love other peoples picture posts and I love to post pictures(and will continue to do so), but I have realized that picture posts can be done carefully without "hotspotting", and reports CAN be generalized. Sorry for the rambling - I guess what I'm trying to say is that we do not need to kill pictures and reports all together, but I do agree with some of the above posters- that we need to protect some of our more fragile waters from the masses.(it took a few harsh PM's for me to realize that in the past)

[jasonvilly]

It seems to me that the common rationale for getting rid of the fishing reports is that they want to protect our river ecosystems. I would back that sentiment 100%.

 

I am hoping that this isnt coming from a selfish place, where I don't want to share my sport, my spot or my fish with someone else because our rivers are already too busy.

 

If it is truly conservation that you are concerned with, then simply removing fishing reports will not come close to achieving your goal. People will still get the information via PM or some other site.

 

There are much better ways to be a steward for your favourite piece of water.

[dube]

One of my favorite ways to get the skinny on a piece of water is to go drop some coin in a local shop and chat up the folks working there.

The whole nature of what we do has a rich history of telling stories but info travels a lot faster these days. Sharing tips with a guy you run into on the water or in a shop is a lot different than sharing with 135 people all at once.

The way I see it is if your main focus is where and how to catch lots of huge fish then you are missing out on a huge part of what this sport has to offer. May as well narrow your odds and set up with a boat and a fish finder and hammer huge stockers at the abundant lakes around the province.

On a side note, consider the folks among us here who have been flicking flies since before a lot of us were born. Things have really changed even in the last ten years. I had the privilege of having a few pops with Barry Mitchell in his trailer one night on a certain river which I'm sure a lot of you can guess and he 's quite the story teller. I'm sure he took a lot of flack for publishing his mag every year but at least you had to pay to play . He put me on a real good stretch of water the next day and it was a great day of fishing to say the least and even got my beat up old copy of trout highway signed.

Nothing wrong with passing on the tradition but nothing good comes for free.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

most of the time you can tell from the photos aswell

[reevesr1]

All this comes down to the purpose of these boards. To me, the purpose is to share information and help people learn how to fish with a fly rod. If we are successful in sharing the information then more people who try the sport will stick to it, and in some cases it may mean more people on "your" river. Good, I say. I can't think of a better thing that could be said of someone than he introduced xx people to fishing. I hope I have a lot of xxx's in my life. Some will be people I took out personally, and I can only hope some will be because of something I said on this board.

 

 

 

[seanbritt]

"All this comes down to the purpose of these boards. To me, the purpose is to share information and help people learn how to fish with a fly rod. If we are successful in sharing the information then more people who try the sport will stick to it, and in some cases it may mean more people on "your" river. Good, I say. I can't think of a better thing that could be said of someone than he introduced xx people to fishing. I hope I have a lot of xxx's in my life. Some will be people I took out personally, and I can only hope some will be because of something I said on this board."

 

x 1

 

more anglers=more people on river. however, more anglers=more representatives of our fisheries=larger voice in conservation efforts=(hopefully) better protection of our watersheds

[jasonvilly]

All this comes down to the purpose of these boards. To me, the purpose is to share information and help people learn how to fish with a fly rod. If we are successful in sharing the information then more people who try the sport will stick to it, and in some cases it may mean more people on "your" river. Good, I say. I can't think of a better thing that could be said of someone than he introduced xx people to fishing. I hope I have a lot of xxx's in my life. Some will be people I took out personally, and I can only hope some will be because of something I said on this board.

 

 

I agree with Rick, and would also like to point out, that hopefully, when you take these people out that respect for the fish and environment are equally taught.

[CopperJonny]

All this comes down to the purpose of these boards. To me, the purpose is to share information and help people learn how to fish with a fly rod. If we are successful in sharing the information then more people who try the sport will stick to it, and in some cases it may mean more people on "your" river. Good, I say. I can't think of a better thing that could be said of someone than he introduced xx people to fishing. I hope I have a lot of xxx's in my life. Some will be people I took out personally, and I can only hope some will be because of something I said on this board.

 

 

x1

 

Also as BiggyJ mentioned ... I hope with every "new" visitor to each new stream , as well as every and all streams and lakes , I sure hope that ethics and practices are continually being carried out and taught......stewardship is the only line of defence !

I hear what you are saying , yet on a rock being over populated as we are , all we may hope for and continue to do is just that !!

Also another great reason for a populus such as us , to begin doing more , if not as much as we may ... as in ......policeing it ourselves , several fellas on here have helped out , and many more have also helped un announced ....Kudos to all !! Great job guys and gals .....and Thanks !!

Jonny

[Harps]

I used to think that most anglers cared; That more eyes means more calls to the RAP line; That people would pick-up their garbage.

I don't believe that now. Piles of garbage, miss handled fish (that is an education issue- littering isn't), and pulling fish off redds have proven that.

40 comments and 1300 views of a fishing report show that people don't want to share your fishing experience- they want an easy spot.

 

Finding a site on your own increases the value of that site to the user. Every angler that fishes there feels that it is their "secret" spot and they strive to keep it in good condition- a sense of ownership.

 

Public resources that don't have that prideful, individual sense of ownership get abused.

 

Tragedy of the Commons.

 

Larger waters can handle the abuse (Missouri, Bow, Red Deer) to a certain extent. Smaller waters can't. There are some good examples in Montana right now- the Madison will now be specially regulated because of too much pressure on a very productive and heavily used river. Same happened to the Big Hole. The Oldman and Crow are not near as productive and the pressure would kill them (luckily we don't have the pressure).

 

A single location on any of the small creeks will have fish completely wiped out without the users having a sense of ownership (higher ethics), greater than what is dictated by law (most of the little creeks have eggs in redds in June and July (Cutts still on redds in July) and then again in Aug/Sep (bulls) and October (brookies)). Luckily most of the folks that fish small streams for beautiful small fish aren't bragging about locations.

 

 

I think it is good for an angler to "own" a water- that person will be a great steward of the resource. I also think that spots should be shared, but through contacts and fishing buddies- with codes of conduct around who you can bring and fishing without the invitee. I thought those codes were standard in fly-fishing, and they probably were before the internet (especially since many were keeping all fish and "your" creek might be wiped out by somebody else you shared with).

 

 

 

So post pictures, brag about your fish if you need- but laud the secret location over everybody- be proud that you discovered it or finally convinced an old codger to take you there! Take ownership of your own secret stream (and know that 25% of the forum members may fish there also...).

[Smitty]

Part of the reason I started this topic because my thinking has come almost 360 degrees.

 

When I got into fishing as a teen in the mid-80's, I remember reading an article by Scammell about the Crow. Part of the reason he wrote the article was to create awareness about the 3 rivers dam. He, like other writers at the time, felt that "rivers that have friends are protected; those that don't have any friends die".

 

I think that's a basic truism, and flowing waters in particular do need friends. But I agree with Harps now; the spread of information is different in rate and audience. Someone who buys an outdoor magazine I think is more likely to become (or already is) the "Steward" type of angler.

 

But the internet, as we all know, has both "lurkers" and "leechers". People who, in combination, contribute very little to discussions AND use/take advantage of the info presented. With the speed of info these days, who knows where the info regarding hot-spots ultimately ends up. Is there any proof beyond my strong suspicion that poachers have benefited from the internet? Not sure about proof, but I'm pretty convinced.

 

I see what Rickr is saying, the whole point of the community is to share, but I think we must be quite prudent about what info we share. Frankly, I'd like to see more discussions or sub-forums dedicated to techniques and the "how to" as opposed to the "where to".

 

Anyways, I'm incredibly leery about putting "where I was" or "where to go" info on the internet. When you think about it, posting the "where" info really doesn't add alot to the telling of your trip's success (or lack thereof). Does it really detract so much by simply generalizing by saying "hey I fished this watershed this past weekend"

 

Conversely, you have a lot to gain by being a steward by protecting a stream's anonymity.

 

I think about alot of streams in that Hinton-Edson region that are hammered badly by resource extraction and industrial development, they don't need any more attention by anglers, some of which choose their ignorance by not reading the regs or simply, malevolently, ignore them. Either way, some of those people are on the 'net, getting the info on which of those creeks still have half-decent populations of fish.

 

On a somewhat side note comment; I wonder how many anglers will make themselves aware and compliant of the new regs protecting rainbows in the Athabasca watershed?

 

Smitty

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bcubed]

I don't see how removing fishing reports would remove people from the sport. In fact, I believe that those that learn a river themselves will grow to love that river and cherish it, and then have far more interest in protecting it. I'd expect that they will have a much greater respect than one that gets the information from the internet, and takes that river completely for granted.

[Guest JBear]

I got flack on another forum for calling someone out on posting continual updates on eastern slope streams. To the point where what flies she/he caught them on, conditions at exact locations on the rivers. Drove me mental, they themselves were causing so much pressure to the stream that i saw pressure and people on the stream go up 10 fold in the 4 years they had started to continuously posted reports. Others were complaining that this person was the only person who could save them the 2-4 hour drive if the water conditions weren't good. Like seriously? You could do some exploring and find some fishable water on a new creek or river. Members were anticipating these reports, and more importantly assuring that more eyes on the stream is better for the fishery. Well if someone could explain why there was 400 views, with only 10 or 15 replies. I have witnessed first hand unfavorable people going over our forum and contributing nadda.

 

I completely understand the fact that the bow can withstand the pressure and it is understandable, especially being so close to a population of about 1 million people. But these smaller rivers and creeks can't with stand more then (Not sure on the exact number) X number of people a week especially when growing season is so short.

 

Theres even a few lakes that do get stocked with fish that dont need the publicity. Especially those with 5 fish limits.

 

Ah well. Beating the dead horse.

[SanJuanWorm]

Well let's someone make a poll and we'll all vote on it. Leave the poll open for 1 month. Then i'll have to run it by the site owner of course.