bcubed Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 PS: There was a post about the cost of shuttles which I thought was not completely thought out, if you feel it cost to much to have 2 responsible people drive your vehicle and trailer to your get out spot maybe you should consider starting your own shuttle service to see just how much profit there is after paying these two responsible people and the fuel, wear and tear on the return vehicle. How many shuttle companies are running with only 1 driver and 1 shuttler? None that I know of. Most have full vans, shuttling over 5 vehicles per stop (if theres that many that day..). If it works, they can drop off the drivers at Glenmore and pick them up at Carseland. Being conservative with 4 drivers, that's 12 shuttles at $50 (or more) for a 120-130 km round trip... So the company has made 600 bucks. And that would be a slow day most of the summer. So am I really that far off base? Guiding is not making anyone rich, so every extra dollar in pocket at the end of the season is one I'd like. Shuttles are pretty well equivalent to MORE than gas per trip for me.... That's serious dough when added up.. I know almost most any guide would switch shuttle companies if it saved them a bit of money each day.. or at least the ones that depend on guiding for their living Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowfloat Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 How many shuttle companies are running with only 1 driver and 1 shuttler? None that I know of. Most have full vans, shuttling over 5 vehicles per stop (if theres that many that day..). If it works, they can drop off the drivers at Glenmore and pick them up at Carseland. Being conservative with 4 drivers, that's 12 shuttles at $50 (or more) for a 120-130 km round trip... So the company has made 600 bucks. And that would be a slow day most of the summer. So am I really that far off base? Guiding is not making anyone rich, so every extra dollar in pocket at the end of the season is one I'd like. Shuttles are pretty well equivalent to MORE than gas per trip for me.... That's serious dough when added up.. I know almost most any guide would switch shuttle companies if it saved them a bit of money each day.. or at least the ones that depend on guiding for their living I do not know if there is any 1 man and 1 driver as you say that are strictly a shuttle service but I do know of companies that offer other related services that will shuttle and are just that 2 people. I would imagine that the weekends are a good payday as they are for the company I am referring to. But there are the days which have only a couple of trips and those are the days where the client does not show up on time and then takes a 45 minutes to off load and finally let you take there vehicle. Now using your numbers of 4 shuttlers making 3 trips the company would make 600 dollars. First you forgot about the 3 round trips the shuttle bus makes as well as the driver of that shuttle bus. How much fuel is used on those 3 round trips in that van and the driver must be paid. So out of the 600 the company makes it has to pay 4 drivers for at least by your numbers appox. 6 hours pay. The company must then pay fuel, insurance and wear and tear of that shuttle bus for those 3 trips. Now there is a thing called taxes on top of all that. So using from your post again Am I that far off base. ccube just out of curiousity what do you feel would be an acceptable price to pay 2 responsible people to shuttle your truck and trailer to a designated spot making sure your truck and trailer is safely locked up and in the best parking spot available at said spot. My appoligies Jayhad for the post going off your original idea which I believe is a good topic of discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcubed Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 I have to say that you are far off base, or at least not understanding how the shuttle companies make themselves more efficient. The drivers will have the keys for the vehicles at Glenmore, Police and Mac, allowing them to use the Client Vehicle as their OWN shuttle service to get to the next take out. Therefore, the "shuttle bus" only has to do one round trip to Glenmore to Carseland and back (if the trips were optimally managed). They do not have the shuttle van go to glenmore, then to policemens, then to mac, etc if they can avoid it. I know that when i'm putting in at mac, i'm not getting moved until they move someone elses down from Police.. Another fact is that most shuttle companies, the drive of the shuttle van IS the owner of the company. Therefore his wage is the profit.. Sorry to get us so off topic, however anyone that makes their living all summer on guiding, understands why the shuttle prices are hard to swallow. I can make my lunches from scratch, buy gas at certain locations, tie my own flies to save myself some money. Any time i could save money on shuttles, i'll take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowfloat Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I have to say that you are far off base, or at least not understanding how the shuttle companies make themselves more efficient. The drivers will have the keys for the vehicles at Glenmore, Police and Mac, allowing them to use the Client Vehicle as their OWN shuttle service to get to the next take out. Therefore, the "shuttle bus" only has to do one round trip to Glenmore to Carseland and back (if the trips were optimally managed). They do not have the shuttle van go to glenmore, then to policemens, then to mac, etc if they can avoid it. I know that when i'm putting in at mac, i'm not getting moved until they move someone elses down from Police.. Another fact is that most shuttle companies, the drive of the shuttle van IS the owner of the company. Therefore his wage is the profit.. Sorry to get us so off topic, however anyone that makes their living all summer on guiding, understands why the shuttle prices are hard to swallow. I can make my lunches from scratch, buy gas at certain locations, tie my own flies to save myself some money. Any time i could save money on shuttles, i'll take it Bcube yes I do know how they work as I have used Bow river shuttles and I found they were worth every penny. I used your numbers not mine, now you don't like those numbers and cloud the post up with a best case senarios. I asked you again: just out of curiosity what do you feel would be an acceptable price to pay 2 responsible people to shuttle your truck and trailer to a designated spot making sure your truck and trailer is safely locked up and in the best parking spot available at said spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcubed Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 I never once changed a post to fit my theory. Perhaps you should reread every word, such as "if it works" in the quote from your post 2 posts ago... 35 bucks. That's approx 70 dollars per hour or more on any float, and a lot more for floats like glen to police... It's no wonder I feel stupid everytime I post on this forum, doesn't seem to matter the topic or the fact that it's my own opinion, someone will jump on ya...What a giant waste of time Good luck Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishpro Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I never once changed a post to fit my theory. Perhaps you should reread every word, such as "if it works" in the quote from your post 2 posts ago... 35 bucks. That's approx 70 dollars per hour or more on any float, and a lot more for floats like glen to police... It's no wonder I feel stupid everytime I post on this forum, doesn't seem to matter the topic or the fact that it's my own opinion, someone will jump on ya...What a giant waste of time Good luck Jay It's hard to say either way, with a lot of companies it can appear they must be making a ton, but they really aren't. An example is fishing lodges, prices are super high but 5 or 6 years ago a survey was done on over 70 lodges in the NWT and only two made a profit one year. The costs to run a business may be higher than we think. On the other hand, if the shuttle companies are truly making a ton of money on their shuttles, then good for them. They've found a great business to be in and have been successful. I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Moving all shuttle related talk to this thread just to keep the guide one on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 i think it is a rip off only when compared to whats going on in the US but i cant find other figures for Can. Down south its around $20 to have you ride moved for you. So in turn i dont use the service, it is not worth the $50+ for some guy to hop on my ride and take it a few K down stream. If it takes less than half an hour why would i pay some one $100/hour for that service?!?!?! this service is worth $15/h TOPS. especially considering its a bunch of blue hairs who would be working at Wally world as a door greeter for $10/h. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Simple! Econ 101 Supply & demand! Lots of demand, little supply = high price! P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weedy1 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 i think it is a rip off only when compared to whats going on in the US but i cant find other figures for Can. Down south its around $20 to have you ride moved for you. So in turn i dont use the service, it is not worth the $50+ for some guy to hop on my ride and take it a few K down stream. If it takes less than half an hour why would i pay some one $100/hour for that service?!?!?! this service is worth $15/h TOPS. especially considering its a bunch of blue hairs who would be working at Wally world as a door greeter for $10/h. There is also employment standards to consider which I'm sure all the shuttle companies abide by. From: http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?page=1997...n=9780779745418 Employment for less than 3 hours 11(1) Subject to subsection (3), if an employee is employed for less than 3 consecutive hours of work, the employer must pay the employee for 3 hours of work at not less than the minimum wage to which the employee is entitled. Let me ask you this 420. Would you go into work only to be paid for 1/2 hour if that was all there was to do that day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonvilly Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 i think it is a rip off only when compared to whats going on in the US but i cant find other figures for Can. Down south its around $20 to have you ride moved for you. I think you are talking about Montana. I used these services as well, however I found the shuttle distances to be WAY less then Calgary. Typically a 10-15 minute drive at most for a full day float ( used shuttles on missouri, Madison and yellowstone). However the cheapest was $25 not $20. To put it in perspective here are a few comparatives I can think of... Beer in Calgary at a bar $5-8 Montana $1-2 Lift ticket at sunshine $85 whitefish $50 Camping in Alberta $15-25 Montana $7-15 (at FAS sites or forestry service sites which would be equivalent of provincial park) There are others but those are the ones I know. economy wise, it is unfair to compare Calgary to montana or any of the northwest states IMHO. I think uber makes the best point, supply and demand. However 420 makes a good point, if you don't agree with the price then do it on your own. This can be said for many things. In the end i think it is worth it for the convenience purely to save time, meaning more time on the water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 yep, supply and demand. especially when they have a monopoly on the shuttle service (only because no one want to start another one). Nice price for Montana, i would use that service every weekend for that. As for the work hours. yes you have to pay them for 3 hours of work minimum but i sure as hell hope they as a company have more than 3 hours worth of work/heavy day. If i take my car to be detailed at a shop and it only take them 1/5 hour for what i asked/quoted then i pay for 1/2 hour of service not 3h. it is good on their part that 1 driver can move multiple vehicles from spot to spot leap froging as they go. This cuts down on their over head of gas for the final pickup as carsland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 (Fortunately/unfortunately) That's capitalism... especially when they have a monopoly on the shuttle service (only because no one want to start another one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 yep and as a voting citizen i have NO problem with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I think its ironic a guide would complain about shuttle prices. Most memorable in recent years was Bowcrow's detailed list of expenses in regards to guiding. Let me be clear; I am sympathetic to guides and what a tough living it can be. I too have owned business's and many members of the public are far too quick to equate "what I charge = what I put in my pocket", lol. They must have been employees all their life (note: I am an "employee" now, since I have gone back to teaching. And I don't get to deduct a damn thing! Like the 3241 pens and pencils I buy the kids every year. I digress...) Put it differently, over the years, we've had numerous guides tell us how much their expenses are and how little profit there is when you factor in x,y,z,a,b,c,d,e,f,g expenses. On top of that, factor in taxes. And yet, we can't look at the shuttle business through the same lens? They have expenses too. However, I will say that increased competition is a good thing. For sure a monopoly sucks; much better to at least have choice A versus B for customers as an absolute minimum. Just saying that making your living off a business associated with sportfishing tourism isn't going to make you rich; guide, shuttle driver, shop owner, whatever. One thing I'll say is don't begrudge an owner putting a money in his pocket; remember, being a capitalist means you assume risk, yes? Smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 and thats what it comes down to, if there is no profit your just tugging it in the dark! im just saying it would be nice if the price was less. I guess im just that i would rather spend that $50 on something (anything) else than paying some one to drive my car for 30 minuites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Coming form Red Deer to float, I don't find the shuttles to be that expensive really. Its piece of mind for me. I can launch my boat and enjoy my day with no worries about shuttling two vehicles and the time it takes. More time to do what I enjoy and thats been on the water not shuttling my own vehicles to save a few bucks. Doesn't save you much coin either in the long run. I would hope they do make a profit, its worth every penny to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 thats funny, if i did a long drive to fish i might see it a different way. when you already spent 1.5+ hours getting here then it makes more sence that you would want to hit the river ASAP and spend another 45+ moving vehicles. If they had a service on the RD i might use it on my May 24 badlands trips as it takes 2 hours to move vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgyguy Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 thats funny, if i did a long drive to fish i might see it a different way. when you already spent 1.5+ hours getting here then it makes more sence that you would want to hit the river ASAP and spend another 45+ moving vehicles. If they had a service on the RD i might use it on my May 24 badlands trips as it takes 2 hours to move vehicles. I seem to recall that at one time, there were two different shuttle companies??? Seems to me that was quite a long time ago, but if my old memory serves me correct, one of the companies either merged with BRS or vice versa, or got out of the business. Anyhoo, the price has definetely gone up over the years for a shuttle. I remember around the 35 buck mark in the past for some reason.... I have used BRS many times, and although they are a bit pricey in my books, with that said, they do a wonderful job at promoting flyfishing, giving back to the industry, and have always been very professional, courteous, and dependable. My 2 cents worth, cgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 As far as I know there are still 2 companies operating in Calgary... P I seem to recall that at one time, there were two different shuttle companies??? Seems to me that was quite a long time ago, but if my old memory serves me correct, one of the companies either merged with BRS or vice versa, or got out of the business. Anyhoo, the price has definetely gone up over the years for a shuttle. I remember around the 35 buck mark in the past for some reason.... I have used BRS many times, and although they are a bit pricey in my books, with that said, they do a wonderful job at promoting flyfishing, giving back to the industry, and have always been very professional, courteous, and dependable. My 2 cents worth, cgy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seanbritt Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 IMHO, I value the service that shuttle companies provide and am willing to pay the current rates that are out there, especially when you consider these fees are often divided by three people. My question to folks who feel its too expensive: how much would you consider paying for two hours of great fishing? I've done both the self-shuttle and paid for shuttle and believe my share of shuttle costs are well worth the time spent fishing and not dealing with traffic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kritofr Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 As far as I know there are still 2 companies operating in Calgary... P The last time I heard, there are three shuttle companies that operate on the Bow River. Mel Franklin, Louise Shotton and Michelle Magtioux (sorry if I mispelled your last name Michelle "Pepper") I too have noticed the price difference between the cost of shuttles of Alberta and Montana, however there is a big difference in time consumption for the companies and distance. We once booked a trip on the Missourri river where the shuttle cost us about $35 because of the extended distance than what the shop thought was a typical float for their river. I do agree with Brent in some cases, as when I first got into guiding the shuttle costs were around $20. Since then the gas prices have doubled maybe even tripled too lazy to do the math but we also gained the Deerfoot Trail extension bridge which allowed the shuttle companies to shorten their distance when shuttling out of Police. No longer did they have to drive back down Dunbow Road to McCrowded trail to 22X to head East. But as long as individuals are willing to pay the price, then the shuttle companies will sell their service for that price. For as little as I float the Bow River now, I will continue to use the shuttle service. For me the convenience outweighs the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EveretteD Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 I look at it this way.. 3 people $20 buxs a person for a day on the water is a pretty decent price. Of course I'm cheap and I wish it was cheaper, but I pay because I want to fish.. simple.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simpson Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Nothing is getting any cheaper.. worth every penny IMO especially split 3 ways.. I drive enough during the week. All I want to do is get on the water! plus I like the candy's Michelle leaves with the receipt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgyguy Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Nothing is getting any cheaper.. worth every penny IMO especially split 3 ways.. I drive enough during the week. All I want to do is get on the water! plus I like the candy's Michelle leaves with the receipt! Werthers a way, theres a shuttle!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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