Hoppers...fact Or Fiction?

[toolman]

We hear about a lot of folks routinely using hopper immitations with success on our southern rivers, such as the Bow and even in mountain streams where there are few, if any hoppers at all. But the reality is I have never seen hoppers floating in the drift on the Bow this season, ever. Never...

I spend a lot of days on the water and a lot of time collecting, photographing and observing the insects in the drift, whether aquatic or terrestrial. What I have seen so far this season, is thousands of female Stoneflys (Skid Bitches) for the past couple of months, every day since the end of May right through July, August and there is at least one species of Stonefly still emerging right now, in early September.

I believe that through the summer, the trout do see/eat some hoppers on occassion, along the tall grassy banks where the hoppers live and sometimes fall in the water, but for the most part, I think the trout get tuned into these large bugs with long legs because of the Stoneflies, not the hoppers.

I have fished with Skid Bitches for the last two seasons and have had consistent success in all types of water with this pattern. The days that I did try and use a Dave's hopper or similar hopper pattern, success was marginal compared to the Skid Bitch which I use in a couple of sizes, with tan, yellow/golden, black or orange bellies for the different Stonefly species on the Bow.

What do you think, Hoppers...fact or fiction? I say fiction, Stoneflys rule...

[Guest bigbadbrent]

I say fact and fiction. I've had days on the oldman where the stream was littered with hoppers, and the complete opposite of your example, where the only dry they would be hitting are things like Dave's Hopper, and completely ignoring the multi-leg ones like clubsandwichs and turk's etc.

 

I've also seen lots of stoneflies, and they wont hit a daves hopper, but will dive after a club. I think it's all dependent on time of day, and wether or not you're seeing the hopper before a fish gets to it, which could very well be happening.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I agree that the fish could not possibly hone in on feeding on hoppers. Although I have seen hoppers get swept into the water by wind gusts as we experienced yesterday and today, it is rare that the fish would key in on them as food.

 

I agree with you Toolman that they are taking them as Stoneflies most of the time, with the odd exception that proves the rule.

 

As anyone with experience will agree, Trout will refuse an offering due to a difference in size, oversized tippet or poor presentation. When fish key in on a food source, they rarely stray from it and will usually only do so when something they have seen as food before might comes by occassionally.

 

I rarely fish Hoppers myself because I've found over the years that not only have I found I am more successful fishing more correct imitations when fishing dries, I've also always thought along the lines that Toolman does.

 

I also agree with Brent that there are occassions when hoppers get blown on the water down south when the fish will take them as actual hoppers, but you have to remember that these areas consistantly have windy conditions, so the fish would be more accustomed to seeing hoppers hit the water.

 

Anyone that has tried to throw a hopper out into the water to see if a fish will take it has probably seen what proficient fliers hoppers are, so even on windy days, hoppers can usually stay in the air long enough to get to safety.

 

So in the end, I have to say Fiction. Fish are most likely taking them as Stones and the number of big Stones we saw on the water today shows that they are still around in good numbers for most of the year causing the fish to become almost dependant on them as a food source.

[toolman]

Fishead, I'm sure it happens occassionally in the late season as you say, along a few stretches that are often only accessible with a boat, but Stoneflys routinely emerge along all stretches of the Lower Bow, every day for months on end, long before the trout see any Hoppers and I think the Stoneflys tune the trout into big bugs with long legs. You would have to admit that a hopper fall, as you saw last Sunday, which was possibly a Hopper migration whose flight path brought them to a stop at the edge of the river, happens far less often and only in specific area's, when seasonal conditions are right.

Stoneflys rule...

[OneMoreLastCast]

I'll also add that in my 30+ years of fishing the Bow, I have on occassion seen hoppers get taken by Trout, but in the end, to say that Hoppers are a large part of a trout's food source is a bit humorous in my opinion, (no offense intended).

 

Even if there was an actual "Hopper Season", ie-Mayfly Hatch, Caddis Hatch, Stonefly Hatch, etc., the conditions for hoppers to become an important food source would have to be perfect for this to happen every day for an extended time.

As you said, it takes a big gust of wind to even get them on the water for the Trout to have them available as food. Also, it would be location dependant as most stretches of the Bow are not situated in a way to allow even the strongest winds to blow hoppers onto the water, not to mention that "Hopper Banks" as you mentioned are far and few between.

 

I have run into so many people that fished Hoppers, or Hopper/Droppers all day and are proud to say they caught a couple of fish, where most of the time on those same days, we caught many more fish using multiple techniques.

 

I will say that it adds to a person's chances if they use a hopper for an indicator, (Hopper/Dropper), because occassionally a fish might take the Hopper, where it's not likely you will get a very good hook set with a corky compared to.

 

Stoneflys Rule...

[Weedy1]

I have no opinion on the subject, nor does this neccesarily apply to the Bow or southern Alberta streams, but thought I would add the following taken from this source. http://www.orvis.com/intro.asp?subject=364&bhcp=1

 

“Unlike fish responding to a hatch, trout can be eating terrestrials and you’ll never notice. One reason is that they might see a beetle only once or twice an hour, and the chances of you looking at exactly the right spot aren’t good. An even more important reason is that when trout eat low-floating terrestrial insects, there is hardly ever a splash. Sometimes you see a subtle ring on the water, sometimes a black snout poking above the surface, and sometimes you see a hopper just disappear into a hole in the water with no visible sign of a rise. Best places to try a terrestrial fly are where riffles deepen into a dark slot (especially near a deep bank but not necessarily), in concave impressions along a bank that form small bays, and along undercut banks, especially ones that flow through meadows.”

 

Other info:

 

http://chanriverguide.com/hoppers.htm

http://www.foxvalleytu.org/html/lets_talk_bugs_oct_05.htm

http://www.flyfishingdvd.com/Terrestrialinsects.html

http://www.westfly.com/feature/9908/feature_71.htm

[Taco]

Hoppers been off the past 2 or 3 yrs .... too wet. Post your question again after 3 dry yrs in a row. Ask Schaupmeyer about his hopper fall on the OM in '03(?)

[castor]

I think that there are more rivers out there than the mighty bow and it wouldn't hurt to try another body of water every couple of years or so.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I guess that I will have to keep that in mind the next time I catch 20 fish in 3 hours on a Smith Hopper...Later

 

lol....So I guess if people post their opinions or theories, not necessarily facts, you want no part of any discussion and just decide to make a comment like this as always and move on.

 

Interesting info Weedy and I agree that on the rare occassion I've seen Trout take a hopper, (usually one I crippled and threw on the water), they sometimes take it quite stealthily. I've also seen them sink them and then turn to eat them where if you weren't watching for it, you would never see it.

 

My point was that it is not often that Hoppers would be available as food, so there's a good chance that they are either taking them by opportunity, or of course as something other than a Hopper, ie-Stonefly.

 

The point that Hoppers are an important food source to Trout just doesn't fly with me due to the lack of availability.

 

As for other terrestrials like ants, these fall into a different category to me. I could be wrong but I think Toolman was saying that he believes the fish are taking our imitations as Stoneflys rather than Hoppers and I agree that for the most part, this is true. But that is just my opinion.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I think that there are more rivers out there than the mighty bow and it wouldn't hurt to try another body of water every couple of years or so.

 

Yes, but the body of water in question is the Bow specifically, with other waters only mentioned.

[lonefisher]

Yeah I would say hoppers are an important terrestrial food source......... Likely one of the most important terrestrial food sources IMO. But IMO a good hatch of aquatic insects will always be more productive while the hatch is going on and in the cases of large insects like stoneflys even long after the hatch has happened.... as long as there are enough of them to keep the trout tuned in to them...... But I would also agree with Taco that the number of hoppers is down..... I know that my main area of reference (the farm 20+ years) seems almost devoid of hoppers compared with some years....... Also they are smaller...... I have heard of grasshoppers having cycles even before I started flyfishing I remember a teacher once told us what all the variables were that affect their numbers but I am drawing a blank now...... sometimes I wonder what I went to school for

[toolman]

I have a few colleagues that have taken throat samples from many trout in the Bow this season, (including an entomologist), from the WHD Weir to Carseland Dam, starting in June through the season till mid August.

The samples revealed the trout were eating a lot of Caddis larva, pupa and adults, juevenille waterboatman, Mayflys, Stoneflys, leeches, freshwater snails, worms were abundant in the diet in early June through the high water, but no Hoppers indentified, not one.

And as Taco and others have pointed out, Hoppers need the right conditions to be available to the trout as food. As I stated previously, I'm certain it does happen as Fishead describes, but just a lot less often than is commonly believed and on the majority of days, Stoneflys Rule...

 

ps. I appreciate everyone sharing their experiences in this great discussion and I am open to the possibility of bieng completely incorrect. It's just that I have learned to question many of the beliefs that are inherent in the flyfishing world.

[monger]

I think on the Bow that Toolman is probably right. The sheer number and long-term availablity of stoneflies makes them a very important food source. However, there is certainly a lot of large trout in the Bow that patrol the very shallow water along the shore that know exactly what Hoppers are. These are the fish that fishhead is probably targeting. Small fish are too chicken to stay in this water, but the fish over 20" know it is a great hunting zone.

There is other streams/lakes where stoneflies don't exist in any great numbers, but the grass nearby is full of hoppers. The fish in these locals certainly know what hoppers look like and make use of energy they contain.

[esleech]

I think that there are more rivers out there than the mighty bow and it wouldn't hurt to try another body of water every couple of years or so.

Sounds like you want to say something....but you would rather insinuate...which is cowardly at best.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I'll just throw in that Trout feed almost exclusivley sub surface as well, so even if Hoppers were to become more available, the Trout would still get most of their diet under the water. This is why I can't see Hoppers being considered as an important food source that's all.

 

...and thanks Esleech, took the words right out of my mouth. Plus, at least make a point, don't just post an insult and run away.

[Weedy1]

It's just that I have learned to question many of the beliefs that are inherent in the flyfishing world.

 

I think a lot of us do Toolman. That's why the sport is so interesting to me. I have been taught and read info that I know is crap now, but it was fun learning why that was. The variables involved in the sport is what keeps us coming back for more.

 

Your comment would make an interesting and most likely explosive thread BTW...

[SilverDoctor]

Just a point, trout are opportunistic. I don't believe for a moment that a trout will pass up a large morsel that it believes to be a meal. The trigger response may not be exactly that it is a hopper or a stonefly but a large something good to eat. I have Hopper patterns I fish that are orange and don't believe for a second that grasshopper are what the trout key on. Many of teh flies we fish are general imitations of life. Not exact copies.

 

That's why such classic flies like the mudder work. In a given situation it can be mistaken for anything from a Stone fly to a Minnow.

 

By the way great postes

[OneMoreLastCast]

I think a lot of us do Toolman. That's why the sport is so interesting to me. I have been taught and read info that I know is crap now, but it was fun learning why that was. The variables involved in the sport is what keeps us coming back for more.

 

Your comment would make an interesting and most likely explosive thread BTW...

 

Both Great points and with that, I'm done with this one and off to bed.

Thanks for starting another interesting Thread Toolman, and thanks Weedy for once again, and as always making intelligent and valid points.

 

Have a great weekend all and hopefully Rick will have a great story to post after the weekend.

 

Later

[lonefisher]

try fishing a hopper as part of a nymph rig sometime..... I know a few places where this is sometimes quite productive as hoppers I think only stay on the surface for a while then they sink...........once they have sank they are down there till they git ate. I have tried fishing stoneflys and other dries in the same fashion with very little success...... I have caught enough fish on hoppers to know they are often worth tossing but there are many places where they are not productive..... you just have to call the spot and fish what you think stands a good chance of producing..... I don't feel this thread is anything to get heated about lots of great opinions and theories are being offered and the one rule of fly fishing is there is no rules of thumb that cannot be broken...... Hope that doesn't get taken out of context

 

I also feel hoppers are usually best fished from the water casting to shore rather then the other way around.....

[OneMoreLastCast]

I totally agree on the sinking the hopper being effective. I also agree that it is not something to get heated about and I'm not at all.

I just get a kick out of those random posts where someone makes no point what so ever, but even if they don't mean to, offend people. So I feel the need occassionally to point that out. Make the comment if they feel the need, but at least follow it up with some kind of point.

 

You, Brent, Fishhead, Weedy, SilverDoctor along with others made some great points and I believe that was the point of the original post. To see others opinions on the subject.

 

If I make an observation, or state an opinion and someone disagrees with it, I am more than happy to hear their side or view. So I guess I assume others might feel the same. When I stated that I could not see how Hoppers could be considered as being an "Important" food source, I was saying just that. I didn't say that Trout don't feed on Hoppers, I was just saying that due to availablility, they could not be considered to be a staple of a Trout's diet. Maybe just an occassional snack.

 

I guess there are obviously people that don't like when others disagree with them, or contradict what they say. If this is the case, so be it, but IMO there is nothing wrong with conflicting opinions.

 

If I stuck by the way I learned to Fly Fish way back from my Grandpa using his techniques, I would not get nearly as much enjoyment out of the past time I love, (No offense Grandpa...RIP).

 

I apologize if I came across as rash, I didn't mean to. I just love a good debate and love it when someone stands behind their opinion or theory, rather than replying with basically a...."Well you're just stupid! I'm right you're wrong" and sign off.

[OneMoreLastCast]

... as you are obviously trying to discredit me publicly, but it is your credibility that is in question, not mine...

 

No worries with that Greg, and damn you for starting this thread. I have to leave at 4 am for our trip and should be in bed, but I am too interested in seeing where this thread goes.

 

This time I'm really off to bed....Seriously.

 

BTW....What are you doing this weekend?

[toolman]

BTW....What are you doing this weekend?

 

Hawgstoppah and I are going to search the tall grass for hoppers, chuck a few in the drift to see how they react, collect samples for id and photos, then we will go and hunt down a pod of big Broonies to play with till the wee hours of the night and hopefully slam a few, using Skid Bitches....black or tan bellied, juicy Skid Bitches, cause as we all know....

Stoneflys Rule...grin.

 

ps. Have a safe and successfull trip this weekend guys.

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Try something new next august fellahs, on one of those dog days afternoons, where its boiling hot

 

Put a dave's hopper on, drop your favourite stonefly...see which puts you into more fish.

 

Other then that, there is no way of saying that they are going for your fly because they 'believe' it to be a stonefly. This could be true, or it could be that you are just simply getting into opportunistic trout that are thinking that they are feeding on hoppers. There is no concrete way of saying that you are getting a fish that prefers stone's over hoppers, and even with the test above theres always the twist of the different fish feeding on different bugs, at the same time. you could be tossing your hopper at the one eating stones, and vice versa, and not getting the results you had hoped for... You'd have to fish this settup for months and get a solid data chart and have radically different, but represent their intended species very well, flies.

 

Plus, how do you even know what your fly is actually imitating to the fish, you can't see from their eyes..they might just see it as a bug, and they're hungry (note: look at any upper upper stream of any small cutt stream, they'll hit branchs floating by they're so hungry)

 

 

and of course, there is the new ultimate twist : chaos theory. The fish might be doing something drastically different then what you had proposed, and the data would be so full of error, that it wouldn't be solid at all...

[Guest rusty]

I've also seen a lot of big fish eat adult cranes when it's ninja-early on the Bow.

 

Does it really matter if the fish "think" it's a hopper or stone or whatever? If they're willing to put a bigass hairy dry that you can see from 100 paces in their mouth, I'll take it - no questions asked.

 

I would certainly tend to agree that the prolonged good dryfly fishing we've experienced this year is a result of the extended stonefly season.

[reevesr1]

I am going to search the tall grass for hoppers, chuck a few in the drift to see how they react, take photos of the ones I find, then I will go and hunt down a pod of big Broonies to play with till the wee hours of the night and hopefully slam a few on....

Skid Bitches....black bellied, juicy Skid Bitches, cause as we all know....Stoneflys Rule...grin.

 

ps. Have a safe and successfull trip this weekend guys.

Oh yeah, well I'm gonna catch me some Big 'Ole Cutties on Hoppers this weekend just out of spite!! I spit on stoneflies!

 

Wait, I know, Hopper/skid bitch double dry. Now for the more important question, should I swing it or dead drift it?????