reevesr1 Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 So I'm sure I could search up some old posts on this, but i'm pretty lazy. The last few days I have noticed a dramatic increase in the size of fish I have been hooking. And with the warming water, the strength of the fish has certainly increased as well. Unfortunately, my catch rate has plummeted. I seem to be getting good hooksets, I really haved not lost many on the jump, mostly on runs and headshakes. I have been pretty surprised by this because i really thought that since I was comfortable landing big saltwater fish through the years that once I started to figure out presentation when fly fishing, the landing part would have been easier to figure out. Wrong, apparently as I have only landed 1 of the last 8 I have hooked. This was capped this morning when I lost a huge brown on a screaming downstream run. I got a great look at him when he jumped about 10 ft in front of me. 25± and thick. Broke my heart to loose him. So please give suggestions. Keeping tension has not been a problem, but there is something about fighting fish in moving water I need to learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localanglr Posted June 3, 2007 Share Posted June 3, 2007 get heavier line and horse them in lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted June 3, 2007 Author Share Posted June 3, 2007 Got it. How does 30# spiderwire cast on a fly rod? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydropsyche Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Maybe try sharpening your hooks. Especially if they are larger. Deeper penetration should result in less shake-offs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhurt Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 As I have learned in the last year, the fight is where the battle is lost and won. Max can explain it alot better then I can but intitally, when you hit in a trout let it take its first panic run, unless there are some type of obsticals in the way, the rest I will let Max explain cause he can explain it alot better then me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownstone Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Have you been busting off or pulling hooks? busting off could be a number of things from too light of line, bad knots, tandem or tri flies to cloise together.(bigger fish have a tendancey to hook themselves on more than one hook if fishing multi hooks, if your flies are too close togther they may get busted). Pulled hooks mean either your pulling too hard(give the fish line if he wants it(but keep him out of the middle/off obsticals)> or like Hydro said besure your hooks are sharp; It may just be a little somthing in your technique also, do you find you lose fish Nymphing,on Drys,streamers? if its isolated i'd say a little experimenting with technique will solve it..remember every fight is different and you have to adjust on the fly(pardon the pun)..only certain rules/guidelines are applicable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoreLastCast Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 Hey Rick, hopefully we get another day on the river together to work on your problem soon. Fighting fish is something you can read about, have people write on a forum what to do or even discuss in person what to do, but in reality, the best way to learn is to have someone beside you "Shouting" out what to do. Also, as we discovered that day on the Bow a couple of weeks ago, fish can change their feeding habits over night. One day they are taking the fly hard and the next, they are gently "lipping" the fly, making the take more subtle. With the water visibility getting lower and lower, good hooks sets will follow proportionally. The basic advice given above is great and should be followed, but nothing compares to having someone right there to give the advice during an actual "Fight". Not to mention, every fish species fights differently. Wait until you hook into a big Bull Trout that swims back into the "School" on the bottom and just sits there, as if to say "is that all you've got?", only to finally decide he's done playing with you and turns his head to spit your hook. Sometimes you just have to accept that you can't catch them all and enjoy the fight while it lasts, frustrating or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwell Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 hook em and let em take that panic run. may be 10 feet maybe 100. the rest is upto the fish. if you have lots of fish spitting you and you are using small flies yoy may halfto ease up a bit . if the fish is rollin on surface or jumps close too you bring the rod down behind the fish trying too make it dive back under.....if it goes deep keep teh tip high...let it run and gain line whenwhen teh fish aint runnin or headshaking....reel down and slowly pull up....goodluck dude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I took stats of lost fish in my years of guiding. If your letting the fish get below you by more than a 45 degree angle downstream (as in, your upstream of the fish, it's downstream from you, and your applying a lot of presure to bring it back towards you against the current), your going to lose approx 90% of the fish you hook while nymphing. This does not apply to streamer fish, becuase there normally hooked below your feet and if they stay on for more than the first 10 seconds, there usually going to get landed... So for nymph fish, I always told guys as soon as you hook up, get your butt to shore, and be prepared to run down with your fish, keeping it right in front of you instead of letting it get downstream of you... if guys did that the lost fish percentage decreased substantially... like only 35% got off. I hope this helps. You'll use a lot of bank, sometimes 500 yards when fighting fish this way, BUT.... when your holding a 25 incher instead of cussing at the one that got away, it'll be worth every step back to the hole you were in when you hooked it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenbow Posted June 7, 2007 Share Posted June 7, 2007 I agree with Hawgstoppah. Trying to yard them upstream from 45 dergrees or more is a losing game, although sometimes there is no choice. If you can move with the fish to your advantage then do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 I took stats of lost fish in my years of guiding. If your letting the fish get below you by more than a 45 degree angle downstream (as in, your upstream of the fish, it's downstream from you, and your applying a lot of presure to bring it back towards you against the current), your going to lose approx 90% of the fish you hook while nymphing. This does not apply to streamer fish, becuase there normally hooked below your feet and if they stay on for more than the first 10 seconds, there usually going to get landed... So for nymph fish, I always told guys as soon as you hook up, get your butt to shore, and be prepared to run down with your fish, keeping it right in front of you instead of letting it get downstream of you... if guys did that the lost fish percentage decreased substantially... like only 35% got off. I hope this helps. You'll use a lot of bank, sometimes 500 yards when fighting fish this way, BUT.... when your holding a 25 incher instead of cussing at the one that got away, it'll be worth every step back to the hole you were in when you hooked it Hawgstoppah, Taught me something I should have already known.... I used to catch sharks (pretty big ones, up to 7 ft or so) in the surf, wade fishing. If they ran straight out, you had a pretty good chance of landing him. If he ran down the beach, you better haul it that in that direction to get him back in line with you or you stood a much greater chance of loosing him. Wish I had put that together with nymphs/river fishing. The funny thing is that on the really big one I lost I was letting him run, and I was hoofing it towards shore to chase, but slipped and fell costing me 15 seconds or so. 2 big head shakes and bye bye trout. I have been just letting them run, have only broke off one, (I tend not to put a whole lot of pressure on the fish unless something forces me to), have been trying to drop the rod on the jumps, hooks are sharp. All fish on nymphs. I suck at everything else so far. So let me ask you guys this. The run I was working was 20 yds or so from shore. Takes at least 30 seconds to get to the bank. If the fish is running like a Banshee, it will be more than 45 deg. downstream. I assume in this case you do what Max suggested, just let him run while doing Hawstoppah race to catch up before applying any real pressure? Thanks for all the great advice again. Love this board! Can't imagine how hard all this would be to learn without forums like this. MTB, can't wait to take you up on the return trip and in person assessment. Hopefully we get lots of chances to analyze. Max and Brad, Ben is chomping at the bit to get together on a float! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Well to me it sounds like your doing a few things wrong.. based on my assumptions reading your text. If your relaxing pressure at ANY time during a fight... BYE BYE.... I keep even steady pressure on the whole fight. If it can run against steady pressure let the fish do so,... but don't LET it run just to let it run.... keep things tight. When they jump.... I go against the crowd on this one... I keep 'em tight. I'll raise the rod a bit to absorb the jump... but I don't let the pressure loose. My theory on this is... if you have a barbless hook and a fish is airborne shaking it's head and body... and it is MOST prone to throw a hook at this point... why on EARTH would you bow to it with barbless flies?? The bowing the rod thing was a thing from the barbed days when you did it to prevent a breakoff.... Also, if your fishing a section of river 20 feet from the bank.... how does it take you 30 seconds to get to the bank. Without knowing the section I can't speak on it... but I know that I can cover 20 feet back to the bank in under 5 seconds... mind you I dont mind getting wet for a good fish either .. basically if I know it's a real good one I haul a$$ to the bank.... kind of making my way downstream with the current towards the bank and staying beside the fish.. If anyone else has any opinions on this feel free to post... my advice is just that... my advice... My personal experiences have shown me that by doing what I mentioned in my posts here, I have a much better success rate on hooked / landed ratio.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birchy Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Great advice guys!! I've learned a few things from this as well. The last big rainbow I lost (the biggest rainbow I've ever had on my line 20"+), I was fighting fine until he went downstream and I didn't follow him down. Lesson learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted June 8, 2007 Author Share Posted June 8, 2007 Well to me it sounds like your doing a few things wrong.. based on my assumptions reading your text. If your relaxing pressure at ANY time during a fight... BYE BYE.... I keep even steady pressure on the whole fight. If it can run against steady pressure let the fish do so,... but don't LET it run just to let it run.... keep things tight. When they jump.... I go against the crowd on this one... I keep 'em tight. I'll raise the rod a bit to absorb the jump... but I don't let the pressure loose. My theory on this is... if you have a barbless hook and a fish is airborne shaking it's head and body... and it is MOST prone to throw a hook at this point... why on EARTH would you bow to it with barbless flies?? The bowing the rod thing was a thing from the barbed days when you did it to prevent a breakoff.... Also, if your fishing a section of river 20 feet from the bank.... how does it take you 30 seconds to get to the bank. Without knowing the section I can't speak on it... but I know that I can cover 20 feet back to the bank in under 5 seconds... mind you I dont mind getting wet for a good fish either .. basically if I know it's a real good one I haul a$$ to the bank.... kind of making my way downstream with the current towards the bank and staying beside the fish.. If anyone else has any opinions on this feel free to post... my advice is just that... my advice... My personal experiences have shown me that by doing what I mentioned in my posts here, I have a much better success rate on hooked / landed ratio.. So, its 20 yards, not 20 feet on really big round loose rocks. Lots of tripping and slipping, and I'm not as spry as I used to be! From now on, I will try to keep the rod up when they jump. That has been what I have done in the salt my whole life really (typically the fish is further away when jumping and the line heavy enough to limit the chance of breaking off), so going back to it is easy! And when I say i don't really pressure them when they are running, don't get me wrong. I keep it plenty tight, as I am more than aware I have a barbless hook. I just don't try to coerce them into doing anything else when they are running hard and try not to get myself in a hurry. Drag set loose enough to let him have his "legs", but not so loose that there is too little pressure. I really believe my mistake has more to do with the 45deg angle thing. It did not cross my mind, but makes loads of sense. Most of my fish have been lost on downstream runs, ergo.... It's very wierd feeling like a novice when doing something you have done your whole life. I'm used to being the one giving the advice, not the other way around, so I probably feel too much of a need to explain myself to show I'm not a total nincompoop. And as I said in the first post, fighting the fish, paticularly big ones, is the part I would not have expected trouble with. It could very well be that my "experience" is actually working against me here. Can't wait for the river to drop a bit to try this out! I truly appreciate all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneMoreLastCast Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 .....Lots of tripping and slipping, and I'm not as spry as I used to be! You're not kidding....I still can't figure out how your waders got so full of water that day. I don't remember seeing you in past your ankles I will throw in my two cents and it goes against the norm some would say. First off I'll start by saying that sometimes if a fish is going to run, it's going to run. A Rainbow can take 100 feet of line in the blink of an eye, so sometimes, there is nothing you can do....but pray. I agree that you want to keep tension on the fish as much as possible, but there are times when you can try something different. If the fish takes off, in a case like I mention above, rather than pray, remove as much tension as possible, fast, for a bit. I learned this from a Steelhead guide that uses it. Being that our Bow Rainbows are actually Steelhead, in case you didn't know that, it actually works I've found. You will most likely lose the fish anyway if it continues to run, so why not try it I always figure when in that position. More often than not, the fish either stops running, or turns back up stream. I think it confuses it. I've also seen where giving the fish this slack will cause it to "Jolt" into the hook when the line tightens up again. Again, I think this confuses it. Another technique I learned while Steelheading was to "Throw an S at the fish". Keeping the tension on the line, you bring the rod hard to the right and then quickly and hard to the left. It sets the fish off balance and allows you to "Catch" up to it. I've used it on the Bow with success, and I saw it work on a number of 20+ lb Steelies too. Remember that fish have a brain the size of a peanut. They are not above tearing their mouths apart to get free, just like an animal stuck in a trap and chewing its leg off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troutlover Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 this is an awesome post with loads of great info thanks for sharing guys. You've helped me, so i'll offer one of my secret spots. First you go to the Bow river then you go to that spot along the bank where the fast water meets the slower current and it makes that nice shiney seam. Now in this particular spot i like to use my go to fly huge black clouser with a small trailing brown and white clouser cast out, retrive, set hook and apply info in above thread. I hope you don't have trouble finding this spot it's by the big tree with the leafs on it and theres a grassy bank to.(but seriously i'll stop being a dork now and just say thanks you just gave me a great fast forward to landing more fish) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birchy Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 this is an awesome post with loads of great info thanks for sharing guys. You've helped me, so i'll offer one of my secret spots. First you go to the Bow river then you go to that spot along the bank where the fast water meets the slower current and it makes that nice shiney seam. Now in this particular spot i like to use my go to fly huge black clouser with a small trailing brown and white clouser cast out, retrive, set hook and apply info in above thread. I hope you don't have trouble finding this spot it's by the big tree with the leafs on it and theres a grassy bank to.(but seriously i'll stop being a dork now and just say thanks you just gave me a great fast forward to landing more fish) I've been to that spot... sorry, but it's not that secret! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 So, its 20 yards, not 20 feet on really big round loose rocks. Lots of tripping and slipping, and I'm not as spry as I used to be! Heh.... large rocks on the bottom that are covered in slime.... yeah that makes it tough. I have to admit I do know a few spots like that, and becuase of THAT reason I tend to stay away from them... to be honest.... I can think of one such spot near the southland dog walk area.... there horrible. Most of my favorite holes have a nice seam 20 yards out, and water about 2 feet deep I stand in on pebbles / gravel. Makes for an easy run back to the bank and on downstream.... I even have a spots I go to where we walk to the middle of the river, walk upstream several hundred tards against the current in 2 feet of water, and then fish. When I hook one in that spot the ONLY option is to walk downstream with the fish, back to the starting point. You can only get about 3 or 4 fish in this spot before you get too darn tired to fight your way back up the current to get back into position to fish again... Lots of good advice on this thread. For anyone new to the game or having troubles landing fish, try any of the above mentioned tactics and find out what works best for YOU.... I find what works best for me is using a technique I have confidence in.... that's half the battle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolman Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thought I would add to the excellent advice already given. A successfull tactic I use when attempting to land large trout, is to get as high up on the bank as possible. Then I pressure the fish upwards, with the force bieng exerted on the trout through the top of the head. This keeps the hookset secure with a good contact angle, even if the trout gets downstream of me. The trout will react by opposing the force exerted and will try and swim down deeper in the water column, rather than running downstream or midstream, further away from me. Pressuring the trout from above and keeping them in the faster surface current, tires them quickly and keeps them closer to you. Bieng high above the trout also gives you a better opportunity to prevent the trout from wrapping, severing your line/leader/tippets or trailing hooks from becoming snagged on obstacles in the drift, or rocks that are protruding above the surface. It also prevents them from going to the bottom and doing all of the above. If the trout has taken off downstream, you need to follow them and stay with them, keeping the trout out in front of you or slightly upstream of your position. Applying lift pressure is a good a strategy to turn the trout around to get them facing back upstream, fighting the current and the fisherman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birchy Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Thought I would add to the excellent advice already given. A sucessfull tactic I use when attempting to land large trout, is to get as high up on the bank as possible. Then I pressure the fish upwards, with the force bieng exerted on the trout through the top of the head. This keeps the hookset secure, with a good contact angle, even if the trout gets downstream of me. The trout will react by opposing the force exerted and will try and swim down deeper in the water column, rather than running downstream or midstream, further away from me. Pressuring the trout from above and keeping them in the faster surface current, tires them quickly and keeps them closer to you. Bieng high above the trout also gives you a better opportunity to prevent the trout from wrapping, severing your line/leader on obstacles in the drift, or rocks that are protruding above the surface and prevents them from going to the bottom and doing all of the above. Makes complete sense!! I'm definitely trying this method next time out too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 That's also why most people (watch a few New Zealand video's and you'll see what I mjean) suggest keeping the rod HIGH for big fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toolman Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Also, when you get the trout in control and in front of you close to shore, slowly sway the rod tip from side to side, while continuing the lifting pressure, to get the trout off balance and swimming in circles. Remember to keep the rod tip held high and don't sway the tip too quickly, as you want the trout to react first, then change angles to create an opposing reaction. The constant directional changes in side pressure and the lift forces bieng exerted, give you the upper hand. With big trout, you need to bring the fight to them, or they will have you beat in 30 secs. or less. Practise these methods with all of the trout you catch to sharpen your skills. Hope this has been helpfull Rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 Heh.... large rocks on the bottom that are covered in slime.... yeah that makes it tough. I have to admit I do know a few spots like that, and becuase of THAT reason I tend to stay away from them... to be honest.... I can think of one such spot near the southland dog walk area.... there horrible. Most of my favorite holes have a nice seam 20 yards out, and water about 2 feet deep I stand in on pebbles / gravel. Makes for an easy run back to the bank and on downstream.... Hawgstoppah, Interesting you mention one such place at Southland dog walk area. It's even tougher when the river is high! From what I understnd, one could hook and loose many big fish there, necessitating a post such as this! Greg, I caught a nice trout at Janzens from the cliffs a couple of weeks ago. I could not chase him due to the danger of falling in, but I did end up pretty high up the cliff while my partner netted him about 30 yds straight downstream of me. Though getting up there was only an attempt to chase and not to just get above him, it is interesting that I landed the fish even though he was almost 90 deg degrees below me. I will commit that to memory and use that tactic as well when the opportunig presents itself. Not to steal the thread (but I started it so I can pretty much do what I want), but I wanted to give props to all the experts on this board. I have been posting advice/asking questions on various message boards for many years. Usually no more than once a month or so as I was more a lurker. Obviously that is not the case here. You guys have a pretty special thing going. The quality of the advice, and the willingness of a number of true experts to share info is pretty much unrivaled from anywhere else I've been. Thanks to everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizz Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Here's a tip that could help you, or just plain get you into trouble. It's by no means foolproof, but it has worked and saved my bacon on a few occasions. Situation: Big Fish, little control, fish headed downstream and you can't follow it...eventual bust off for sure. Keeping as much tension as you can start to feed line out and into the water/current. What you are after is a big bow/bend in the line where the current is pulling in the bend of the line (line is in the water). The arc of your downstream bend needs to get downstream of the fish's location. What results is pressure on the fish from behind rather than upstream or perpendicular to the fish. Just like a rabbit in a snare it pulls away from the pressure trying to flee. Ideal result is the fish starts to run upstream rather than downstream (away from your pressure) while you manage the bend in the line and eventually pick up the slack. I was on the little re-bar on the Stamp years ago and lost a HUGE spring cause he ran downstream and I couldn't follow. Next season I was in the same boat with a huge pig on and he started downstream. I threw the bend in the line and he slowly moved upstream and then took off upstream where I could follow and eventually land him. Mind you I've also screwed myself with this tool too and been left my own vulgar vocabulary to listen to! Nothing you'd pull out of the toolbox very often, but it can be a last ditch effort to save a shitty situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonefisher Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Toolman showed me the importance of keeping your rod tip high when fighting a big fish and I have found it can sometimes be the difference. Including what he said about it keeping the pressure from above I find it also keeps the bow outta the line that is caused by the fish running to your right or to your left..... it will also help to keep your line from snaggin stuff. I'm may be repeating what he said in different words though. I have also found that if the fish runs directly away from you then it is easy to keep em tight, but if they run to your left or right then they creat a curve in your fly line. This usually happens right after the hookset. I found that the first impulse when a fish runs to your right and forms that curve is to follow him with yourself and your rod tip to the right trying to strip that curve back tight. After thinking about it I decided to do the opposite so when a fish runs to my right and forms that curve of line (future slack if you don't tighten it up) I will hop a couple steps to the left while moving the rod tip to the left. This moves you and your rod tip away from the fish and I think will keep the pressure on better and straighten the line better while you get your line outta the water and tight again..... Then of course you are free to follow the fish which as everyone has noted is the way to do things....... Other then that I like to basically keep the pressure constant...... jerkyness could work that hook loose, slack line will get spit and to much high pressure- low pressure - high pressure- low pressure might weaken you line or knots and result in a break off, I don't bow to jumpers I think that having your tip high and good pressure your rod will flex to absorb the fishs' headshakes ect as he is airborne without breaking him off........ This is all of course just my opinion and I am in no way an authority on landing big fish, But these are things that I usually associate with my successful fish battles. Just read that over again and I hope my gibberish doesn't confuse people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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