Do We Pay Too Much?

[Swede]

Why the rage on sage. Welcome to the free world everything we buy is a rip off. I dont want to know what it cost to produce anything cause I have a feeling the answer will just piss me off.

[reevesr1]

Not to get into a giant discussion on capitalism, but the system is somewhat self adjusting. If Sage was making immense profits on their rods, then other manufacturers would see these profits and want a piece of the action. There would be more competition (see Orivs, Loop, T&T, etc.), and to establish or maintain market share they will adjust their prices to compete-forcing the most established brand to adjust prices as well.

 

But if you don't believe that, then fine. Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first, or last, time.

 

 

[Smitty]

I have a quick question and it is a minor hijack, but its not worthy of its own thread topic.

 

Recently, when I went fishing with my dad, I had a chance to cast his RPL 6wt. I loved it!

 

So anyways, what models replaced the RPL, because I am thinking of saving my money and getting the equivalent? Is it the z-axis?

 

Smitty

 

(Or, if you have any non-sage recommends along the lines of the RPL, I'll hear them too).

 

[yak]

Not to get into a giant discussion on capitalism, but the system is somewhat self adjusting. If Sage was making immense profits on their rods, then other manufacturers would see these profits and want a piece of the action. There would be more competition (see Orivs, Loop, T&T, etc.), and to establish or maintain market share they will adjust their prices to compete-forcing the most established brand to adjust prices as well.

 

But if you don't believe that, then fine. Maybe I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first, or last, time.

I believe the price has been "set" by all the manafactureers such that they all make a very good markup. Bad business for anyone to undercut and undercut prices. IMO, all the companies are ripping us if with regard to what it actually costs to make these rods compared to what they charge Joe average to buy them.As drake has pointed out ,prettty much every consumer item has this type of markup so there is little one can do except to take advantage of the loophole these companies provide when they discontinue lines and sell them for half the original cost.I have tried a z axis and for myself ( I am a fairly new to the sport with only 8 years invested) there was little difference between it an the XPs i use. Certainly not enough of a differnce to justify the $500 difference between what i paid for the XPs and what they are asking for the Z ( again this is just for myself). I am not trying to slag any company or anyone who is willing to pony up the $1000 to buy their favorite high end rod, just trying to give the original poster an option should he choose to wait on his purchase.

 

[ÜberFly]

I don't have a lot of retail experience, but what I do know is the "standard" mark up with all (if not most) retail products is 100%, so one can presume that it's the same in the sports retail sector...

 

P

 

 

[yak]

I don't have a lot of retail experience, but what I do know is the "standard" mark up with all (if not most) retail products is 100%, so one can presume that it's the same in the sports retail sector...

 

P

thats about what I would approximate as well. I figured the xps i purchased at $350 were roughly at cost for sage

[reevesr1]

What do you base your approximation on? Can you give me an accurate cost structure of their manufacturing facility? Do they own or lease? Depreciation on their manufacturing equipment (ie, old or new)? How about their marketing department? Research and development? Pay structure of management and executives? Number of managers and executive? Inventory in stock? What is their quality program? Rejection rate? How much does it cost to change tooling for a production run? How big are their production runs?

 

Give me another hour and I can come up with a couple of hundred other questions.

 

I don't know the answer to any of them, but have been involved in manufacturing in a previous job. Always heard about how much money we made. Wish they were right. I'd have a bigger house, nicer car, and all the sage rods I can handle.

 

Anyway, this is probably pointless. Everyone rips everyone off and the world is a big mean place. Glad I don't really believe that.

 

Edit:

I don't have a lot of retail experience, but what I do know is the "standard" mark up with all (if not most) retail products is 100%, so one can presume that it's the same in the sports retail sector...

 

 

That is retail markup. Has nothing at all to do with the manufacturers markup.

[rusty]

Smitty,

 

If it was the RPL (Reserve Power Lightweight) and not the RPL+, the EXACT same blank is used in the VPS (Variable Presentation Series), but with cheaper components. The VPS was discontinued last year.

 

You can easily find a factory VPS kicking around (there's a 586 for sale on the board here), or, if you want to kick it up a notch, track down a blank and build it with singlefoot guides and a nicer reel seat. I have a custom 890-4VPS with Fujis and it just pounds line like nobody's business. My wife built a 690VPS a few years for a Bow River rod and she won't fish anything else now. My 890 cost about $300, while her 690 was only $225. I have a good friend who does amazing rod work if you're looking for a builder, and there are a few guys here (CDone is one) who do great work as well.

 

The ZAs are quite a bit faster than the RPLs. The predecessor to the ZA is the XP, which "replaced" the RPL+. They actually sold both for a while before they stopped making the RPL+. Some folks compare the VT2 to the RPL+, but I find the RPL+ is a much nicer rod to cast.

[ÜberFly]

Correct Rick, but as far as what the "consumer" pays (even with products "on sale") the retailer still has to make $, and they do! It all fits into the grand scheme of things... manufacture cost - wholesale cost - retail cost... Each segment needs to turn a profit (or why make/sell products?!), so if the retail mark up is at least 100%, then then each previous segment is making a specific %'age as well (maybe not 100% as each segment is certainly weighted differently. Of course volume plays a role, as well - think Cost-co, Walmart, etc.)

 

P

 

That is retail markup. Has nothing at all to do with the manufacturers markup.

 

[darrinhurst]

Ok, short answer. YES. You all pay too much! Why would you need to spend $800 on a FISHING ROD????

 

I, on the other hand, don't spend too much, because I am a cheap bastard.........

[Wolfie]

Ok, short answer. YES. You all pay too much! Why would you need to spend $800 on a FISHING ROD????

 

I, on the other hand, don't spend too much, because I am a cheap bastard.........

 

 

most ppl follow the leader..but some of us are proper cheap bastards..hip,hip,hooray!......Wolfie

[yak]

What do you base your approximation on? Can you give me an accurate cost structure of their manufacturing facility? Do they own or lease? Depreciation on their manufacturing equipment (ie, old or new)? How about their marketing department? Research and development? Pay structure of management and executives? Number of managers and executive? Inventory in stock? What is their quality program? Rejection rate? How much does it cost to change tooling for a production run? How big are their production runs?

 

Give me another hour and I can come up with a couple of hundred other questions.

 

I don't know the answer to any of them, but have been involved in manufacturing in a previous job. Always heard about how much money we made. Wish they were right. I'd have a bigger house, nicer car, and all the sage rods I can handle.

 

Anyway, this is probably pointless. Everyone rips everyone off and the world is a big mean place. Glad I don't really believe that.

Edit:

 

 

 

That is retail markup. Has nothing at all to do with the manufacturers markup.

The world is a big mean place when it comes to gettting the most bang for ones buck and getting a good deal. i guess we are just very lucky that fly rod makers (unlike almost every other business out there) dont need to make a big markup on their products and put the customer before the bottom line l. We are even more fortuante they are willing to take a 50 percent loss on products when they have outdated a line or series even though they must have to sell a hell of a lot of z axis rods to make up the difference ( especailly when they apparently barely cover their cost in the first place ). Perhaps my pessimism is unwarranted. sunshine and lollipops

 

[CrisD]

If i went out and bought the latest and greatest Taylor Made driver i'm sure it would NOT help my golf game. But when you find that new top of the line fly rod that casts like a dream you just know that you are going to have a great day on the stream :-)

[yak]

If i went out and bought the latest and greatest Taylor Made driver i'm sure it would NOT help my golf game. But when you find that new top of the line fly rod that casts like a dream you just know that you are going to have a great day on the stream :-)

I have watched low handicappers play great shots with poor equipment and high handicappers butcher the course with $3000 worth of clubs.The hacker still enjoys the sport but obviuosly isnt getting anything extra by paying a premium for his clubs. IMO, a good flyfisherman with a walmart special will outfish an average angler with a $1000 sage. If the price of the rod ( or the driver) enhances the experience for you then it is worth the cost, but think how good a day it would be if you got your $1000 dream rod for half price. I personally try to juggle quality with price by waiting for the deals that are out there. again, each to his own

[headscan]

I think something that everyone forgot about is consumer perception. I once read about a study where they took a product that had all the same features as the average products in that space. They then priced it significantly lower than the other products in the space and brought in a focus group (just like real manufacturers do before they release a new product to market). The focus group was shown the comparable products and preferred them over the similar but lower priced product because they perceived they were better because of the higher price. They then took a different focus group and showed them the exact same product spread but this time set the price on theirs higher than the rest. Guess which product this group preferred?

 

At the end of the day, buy what you want. If you prefer to buy lower priced stuff that does what you want it to, then great. If you don't mind spending a little more for the perception of having something that will work better, it's your money so spend it how you like. Personally, I don't have many other hobbies outside of fly fishing and tying so I have no issues spending more money on the gear I want. While I'm out on the river I'm perfectly happy in my expensive Simms waders casting my $1000 fly rod with the $700 reel. Do I catch more fish than people with less expensive gear with less markup? Maybe, maybe not but I'm still happy and enjoying myself. It's called capitalism and the invisible hand of the market and a bunch of other stuff from ECON 201 that I've forgotten. If you don't want markup move to the Soviet Union. Oh wait, I mean China. Oh, they're capitalists now too? Umm, how about Cuba then?

 

[yak]

I think something that everyone forgot about is consumer perception. I once read about a study where they took a product that had all the same features as the average products in that space. They then priced it significantly lower than the other products in the space and brought in a focus group (just like real manufacturers do before they release a new product to market). The focus group was shown the comparable products and preferred them over the similar but lower priced product because they perceived they were better because of the higher price. They then took a different focus group and showed them the exact same product spread but this time set the price on theirs higher than the rest. Guess which product this group preferred?

 

At the end of the day, buy what you want. If you prefer to buy lower priced stuff that does what you want it to, then great. If you don't mind spending a little more for the perception of having something that will work better, it's your money so spend it how you like. Personally, I don't have many other hobbies outside of fly fishing and tying so I have no issues spending more money on the gear I want. While I'm out on the river I'm perfectly happy in my expensive Simms waders casting my $1000 fly rod with the $700 reel. Do I catch more fish than people with less expensive gear with less markup? Maybe, maybe not but I'm still happy and enjoying myself. It's called capitalism and the invisible hand of the market and a bunch of other stuff from ECON 201 that I've forgotten. If you don't want markup move to the Soviet Union. Oh wait, I mean China. Oh, they're capitalists now too? Umm, how about Cuba then?

great fly fishing in russia and cuba lol. dont mind markup, just seems naive to think it hasnt effected our sport. I too have few hobbies outside golf and FF so like to have quality gear. Im just happeir when i pay 50 percent of the cost because the clubs/rods i buy are one year removed from the latest line offered by the manafacturer of choice. Nyet to z axis,Dah to xp

[Smitty]

Thanks for the reply Rusty, I'll be pm'ing you when I have a look at my dad's sage again, I need to dbl check btwn RPL vs RPL+.

 

The answer to the question is no, we don't pay too much. The prices are the prices because people are willing to pay them. I like to keep my economics simple.

 

Just to expand a little, we do not live in a monopolic universe where $800+ Sages are the only choice. Plenty of non-severely addicted fly anglers find plenty of quality, serviceable rods, in the $150 - $350 range made by Redington, TFO, St. Croix, the "lesser models of Sage and Orvis, etc.

 

So with plenty of choices, and fairly wide price ranges to choose from, it seems the clear answer is no. We pay what we want to pay, then try to justify it to the wife.

 

Now, if the "cheap", "entry" level rods started at $800 and prices went up from there, I could see the answer being yes.

 

Smitty

[darrinhurst]

But when you find that new top of the line fly rod that casts like a dream you just know that you are going to have a great day on the stream :-)

Why? Does a more expensive rod give you the clairvoyance enough to know what the fish are feeding on that day? It tells you exactly where the fish are holding? Or does having a nice feeling rod in your hand make you forget that your actually trying to catch fish and just play with your rod all day?

 

Hell, you don't even have to leave the house for that........

[Harps]

I'm fishing with a Z-Axis this season and coughed up for a matching reel....

It was well worth the price to me.

 

Smitty has it bang on> There is a range of prices and you pay for what you want, whether it's a high-end name stick (with quality to back it) or the lower-end stuff (quality still) that will still get you to where the fish are. (The Itinerate Angler has a couple of good recent podcasts on flyrod pricing and technology).

 

 

 

Everybody could be driving Hyundai's and Kia's also, wearing $2 shoes, cheap cloths, and living in small 50 year old, 1 room houses. To be upset about the range of fly rod prices is silly when you look at how our society values things.

[fishfreak]

Everybody has some sort of indulgence, whether it be a $1000 Coach or LV purse, a $2500 carbon fibre road bike, a $1500 set of golf clubs, a $50,000 boat, a $500 chef's menu meal at a nice restaurant, a $10,000 first class flight, a $75,000 German car, or a $800 fly rod. Ya gotta splurge on something, right?

[Harps]

http://www.itinerantangler.com/podcasts/podcasts/

 

Rod Episode Twelve: Why Are Fly Rods Getting More Expensive? with Jim Bartschi

[Hawgstoppah]

I've casted everything from high end sages to low end TFO's and the good ol' berkley cherrywood canadian tire specials. I'd bet if you took all the blanks, put no markings on them and had them all exactly the same color, and got 100 pro catsers to cast them all, the rods in the 100-300 dollar range would prefrom every bit as good as any others priced higher. The name "sage" or "orivs" is what your paying for, not a better stick... IMHO. If you want to spen a grand for a GREAT feeling stick, spend a bit more and go into bamboo.

 

cheers.

[yak]

I've casted everything from high end sages to low end TFO's and the good ol' berkley cherrywood canadian tire specials. I'd bet if you took all the blanks, put no markings on them and had them all exactly the same color, and got 100 pro catsers to cast them all, the rods in the 100-300 dollar range would prefrom every bit as good as any others priced higher. The name "sage" or "orivs" is what your paying for, not a better stick... IMHO. If you want to spen a grand for a GREAT feeling stick, spend a bit more and go into bamboo.

 

cheers.

brian, how can that be when sage is using much more expensive materials ( at least i assume they do as apparently there is very little markup on their $800 rods)

[reevesr1]

http://www.itinerantangler.com/podcasts/podcasts/

 

Rod Episode Twelve: Why Are Fly Rods Getting More Expensive? with Jim Bartschi

 

Paul,

I'll take a look when I get home. But he's probably paid for by the rod manufacturers. Everyone knows they are ripping us off with their generic materials.

 

Hey hawg,

Isn't your go to rod a custom G&L? I test drove one once and loved it.Don't remember it being too cheap though............

[Hawgstoppah]

Hey hawg,

Isn't your go to rod a custom G&L? I test drove one once and loved it.Don't remember it being too cheap though............

 

hehe ... well... I didnt "pay" full for that I demo'd john's rods for a couple years with the old company. There great. It's a super rod for the bow BUT... my favorite rod I own is a st croix legend ultra 3wt. 300 bucks. Ive casted MUCH more pricey 3 and 4 weights... they dont even compare to how good that legend ultra feels.

 

I totally agree with the old adage: Go cast and find the rod YOU like best without looking at the name or price tag first. Cast 5 different rods of exactly the size you want, putting tape over the price tag and name