Thinking Of Voting Liberal?

dryfly · October 11, 2008

From the pen of a Liberal MP. The Green Shift plan is a tax grab. It is a major money grab from Alberta and SK.

================ From an Liberal MP's blog ... since removed ===============

"The ‘shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country"

Thursday, 10 July 2008

A Green Anti-Poverty Plan

Submitted by Ken Boshcoff M.P.

The Liberal Party’s Green Shift announced on June 19th marked the most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years. The ‘shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low-income Canadians. Roughly $9 billion of the $15.3 billion expected to be collected annually in carbon tax revenues would be returned to Canadians earning less than $40,000 annually. This would be done through a combination of income tax cuts and benefits targeted at children, low wage earners, rural residents, and individuals with disabilities. In addition, this fiscal framework will work collaboratively with the Liberal 30-50 Plan to Combat Poverty. Together, I am excited by the prospect that this comprehensive strategy holds for both the environment and for the people of our riding.

As part of this plan, Liberals have committed to expanding and improving the Canada Child Tax Benefit. With the proposed ‘green shift’, Liberal have reaffirmed their pledge to introduce a $350 universal child tax benefit by backing it with $2.9 billion in carbon tax revenues. The Green Shift will also increase support for low-income seniors. The Guaranteed Income Supplement would be increased by $600 a year over the course of a Liberal mandate. The cost would be met by $800 million in carbon tax proceeds.

Liberals have also committed to ensuring that work pays more than welfare. The Green Shift would enrich the Conservative government’s Working Income Tax Benefit and replace the employment tax credit with $1850 refund targeted at those earning less than $50,000.00. The $765 million cost would also be covered by carbon tax revenue.

I invite and encourage everyone to visit www.thegreenshift.ca to see how this comprehensive plan will benefit low-income Canadians. I will continue to work collaboratively with my Liberal colleagues towards a fairer, richer, greener Canada.

Ken Boshcoff MP

www.kenboshcoff.ca

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Nick0Danger · October 11, 2008

voting liberal is like kissing your cousin, its just STUPID

Fisherwoman · October 12, 2008

voting liberal is like kissing your cousin, its just STUPID

Hi Voting Liberal or Green, say good bye to your Job, Your nice house! Everything you worked so hard for! If you want to make a difference vote Conservative... Keep Albertas money in Alberta..

snakeman · October 12, 2008

"The ‘shift’ will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oil patch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low-income Canadians."

So what's wrong with this idea exactly? Sending a chunk of Alberta's oil money to the other provinces might keep some easterners home

LynnF · October 12, 2008

I'm gonna bet that the Western vote for Liberal is going to be at an all time low this election. Those Easterners are the ones who need to smarten TFU.

alhuger · October 12, 2008

I think the sentiment is great, I mean who does not support alleviating poverty and helping the disabled? I think the idea of leaching the required financing solely from the oilfields is crazy. However, unless you've read the platform (I have not) I would not judge it solely from the post of one MP. I mean Rob Anders runs his mouth with a sundry of retarded things (with alarming frequency) but his sole views hardly represent Stephen Harper's conservatives (or so one would hope). I am no more enthused about voting conservative than I am voting for liberal, anyone remember the energy trust debacle?? I think for many of us it's a Hobson's choice this time around.

I might just vote green. I am that disgusted.

al

Pythagoras · October 12, 2008

Easy on bashing the East please...you Albertans on your high horse sicken me. <_<

Castuserraticus · October 12, 2008

It's scary. The Liberals think we'll happily pay the government all year for the pleasure of a tax refund the next spring. Layton is running around the auto sector towns promising untold riches if elected. He's going to single handedly rescue the continental auto industry by poring money into S. Ont? It's a good thing there's this endless flood of energy dollars in those dopey western provinces. Everyone there is so rich they won't even notice $billions being sucked out. Ontario can repatriate all those people who left the province seeking well paying jobs. They were used to paying higher taxes and working in government subsidized jobs in dying industries so it will be an easy transition back. It would be lovely if we could alleviate poverty, increase social benefits, and put a new car in every driveway. Unfortunately, we're dealing with people. More money never solves a money problem. If this wasn't true, millionaires would never go broke and people from poor backgrounds would never become wealthy.

These parties somehow believe they can provide high paying jobs to poor people by taxing to death the companies that provide the high paying jobs. A multi year international study released earlier this year looked at the effects of tax increases on employee income. Irrespective of political or ideological system, for every $1 tax increase by governments payrolls, on average, dropped by $1.25. This massive study showed how hollow their promises of prosperity are. A GOVERNMENT CAN NOT TAX YOU INTO PROSPERITY. It's been tried innumerable times through history and has never worked.

dryfly · October 12, 2008

The MOST disturbing thing about Ken Boshcoff's article was that it really ONLY mentions a money transfer. I sure as hell am not rich and taxes on energy are ridiculous and I am sick and tired of paying them. Voting Liberal, Green and ND is suicide.

Carbon taxes are NOT working anywhere and carbon trading schemes are merely a huge scam with traders potentially making billions while NOTHING is going toward environmental protection.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL. We HAVE a lot to be thankful for.

Cheers!

Clive

==================

(The UK has been trying to reduce carbon emissions with silly policies and taxes for two decades. Look where it's got them?

Everything below is quoted

The UK In World Context

The UK has the world’s longest national record of fossil fuel carbon dioxide emissions, from 1751 to 2005. Its total fossil fuel emissions in 2005 (149,131) ranked seventh in the world behind The People’s Republic of China (2005: 1,514,126; estimates for 2006/7 above the USA); the United States of America (1,576,537); The Russian Federation (2004: 415,951); India (382,740); Japan (335,706); and Germany (213,969). Canada (146,704) is next, eighth, after the UK.

These figures confirm two trends, reinforced by 2007 estimates, namely that fossil fuel emissions of carbon dioxide are continuing to rise very quickly, but more significantly that they are shifting towards the East [see: ‘CO2 emissions booming, shifting east, researchers report’, News Release, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, September 24]:

“... annual carbon dioxide emissions from burning fossil fuels and manufacturing cement have grown 38 percent since 1992, from 6.1 billion tons of carbon to 8.5 billion tons in 2007.

At the same time, the source of emissions has shifted dramatically as energy use has been growing slowly in many developed countries but more quickly in some developing countries, most notably in rapidly developing Asian countries such as China and India.”

China became the largest emitter in 2006/7, while India is poised to pass The Russian Federation to become the third largest emitter, probably later this year or next year.

The total world fossil fuel carbon dioxide emission figure for 2005 was 7,985 million metric tons of carbon.

===============

The Australian, 4 July 2008

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...5005200,00.html

AUSTRALIA risked tarnishing its reputation with international investors if an emissions trading scheme was implemented too swiftly, destroying the value of existing power assets, TRUenergy managing director Richard McIndoe says.

"Given that Australia is really going out on a point on this matter ... to introduce a high (carbon) tax immediately would be fraught with risk," Mr McIndoe said yesterday. "I think you'd see significantly less appetite from international investors in (energy) assets because they'd see a huge level of sovereign risk in investing in the electricity sector in Australia."

=======================

England

The costs of suicidal ‘global warming’ policies are soaring like our newly-returned swallows

On Sunday, The Daily Express highlighted the cost for UK families of the government’s ill-judged policies, based on a newly-released report carried out by respected energy consultants for the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform [what a 1984 invention] [‘Labour’s Green Tax Will Cost Every Family £3,000’, The Daily Express, May 4]. These costs are no longer a joke. Here we have a Labour government heaping burden after burden on the poorer members of society, at a time when people’s finances are under greater stress than usual from rising food and fuel bills, from the increasing unavailability of mortgages, and from a series of ill-thought out tax and pension decisions. No wonder Labour received a drubbing last week in the local and London elections. It is just asking to be voted out of office.

Tuesday, 6 May 2008

====================

LynnF · October 12, 2008

Easy on bashing the East please...you Albertans on your high horse sicken me.

No offense intended - after all I was born and raised in Brampton, Ontario for 32 years. My point is that Easterners need to quit doing what they've done for the last 30 odd years now and just quit blindly voting Liberal. Don't get me wrong - I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, but there's a reason that the Liberals have historically had a stronghold out there and I hope they see that it's time for a change.

Pythagoras · October 13, 2008

No offense intended - after all I was born and raised in Brampton, Ontario for 32 years. My point is that Easterners need to quit doing what they've done for the last 30 odd years now and just quit blindly voting Liberal. Don't get me wrong - I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, but there's a reason that the Liberals have historically had a stronghold out there and I hope they see that it's time for a change.

Woha...there are a couple things amiss there...first, East does not mean or stop in Ontario, second, it's the Albertans that vote the same way consistently (and on mass). I don't know why they even run a Liberal out here...the Cons could run an incontinant monkey and win by a landslide.

I'm not saying the green shift is a good thing but I question a party that breaks its own election laws to call the public to the polls and then runs a campaign for weeks without unveiling its policy.

mvdaog · October 13, 2008

laissez-faire capitalism has never once worked for any significant amnt of time... survival of the fittest or whatever you want to call it just doesnt awork for social creatures. On top of that, it just seems cruel to have at one instant someone sitting in a big house with a big tv wasting food while someone is still struggling to raise their kids working at 7-11. I'm not trying to start an argument or preach, I know I'm guilty of being quite materialistic at times, but no matter what you think government has to play a role in taxing the well-off for social programs to function. Less taxes on the rich and the big corporations leads to recessions and depressions, not to mention poorer quality of life for those not as fortunate to get the good jobs ..... IMHO

snakeman · October 14, 2008

No offense intended - after all I was born and raised in Brampton, Ontario for 32 years. My point is that Easterners need to quit doing what they've done for the last 30 odd years now and just quit blindly voting Liberal. Don't get me wrong - I'm not painting everyone with the same brush, but there's a reason that the Liberals have historically had a stronghold out there and I hope they see that it's time for a change.

The Libs have a stronghold out there 'cos everyone is still high on Trudeau

They will talk the same way about a Conservative stranglehold of Alberta.

But it seems to me that you get the same sh*t whether the Liberals or Conservatives win...I'm just gonna throw a vote to the Green party

Smitty · October 14, 2008

Mvadog:

I am would take up arms to defend your right to free speech; you're entitled to say as you like.

But your opinion leaves me staggered, with all its false presumptions. I suggest a basic econ101 type course.

Canada has one of the freest, democratic countries in the world. Very few places - very few countries - are like Canada: the opportunity for advancement is unprecedented. As I said elsewhere, people in the world generally love this country for its opportunities to become wealthy, or least a chance to get ahead, perhaps even achieve some level of financial independence. With the amount of free education that is available - check your local library or online -, there little reason or excuse not to better yourself.

My point is that taxing the rich and corporations is not the answer; anyone with a solid understanding of business and economics. You generally want a low tax environment - especially for business's - to help stimulate the economy. Saying lower taxes leads to recession is factually wrong.

I am generally quite happy to pay taxes for social programs, but clinging to social welfare that embraces the stereotypical "let-the-rich-pay-for-everything" will not, does not, and has not work. The so called "rich" already pay more taxes than everyone else. They already subsidize this wonderful country.

I am going to repeat an often quoted line (I myself stole it from Robert Kiyosaki) "taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society." So to be clear, before someone assumes that I mean something different, I'll say it again: "(1) I am happy to pay for taxes and the Canadian social net, (2) I am not for, like, eliminating taxes, (3) I am not in favor of a US socio-economic system". I love this country.

But you have it completely backwards man, totally. IMHO, of course.

Smitty

mvdaog · October 14, 2008

I agree with almost everything you said, we do need taxes, im not for eliminating taxes, and a civilized place will have taxes. But the only thing you differed on was the statement I made that lowering taxes leads to recession, and I guess thats something we cant really prove or disprove. Well at least both of us didn't provide any evidence, and if we wanted we could probably find evidence for both sides. True the rich pay most the taxes, but percentage wise they pay an unfairly low amount. People makin 10 mil a year could pay 5 mil a year in taxes just like the middle class and still have their big car and house and whatever else they want to buy... i believe the lower you make the less taxes you should have to pay, and vice versa, up to a certain point. If millions a year isnt enough to feel like you made it or advanced enough financially theres something wrong. I agree that certain small companies and such need tax beaks to hire more people and pay their employees and keep their business going, but some of the profits you see from these huge companies are grotesque.

PS all the economic courses in our universities are very biased towards capitalism... remember socialism is an economic theory as well, one that worked for thousands and thousands of years, and what capitalism always shifts towards once it starts to collapse. The best system is a capitalism/socialism mixture, which we've never found a perfect balance of so far, but isnt too far, IMHO.

TerryH · October 14, 2008

................. remember socialism is an economic theory as well, one that worked for thousands and thousands of years, ..................

Please explain where this happened? Among the major countries that seriously tried socialism are the USSR and China. The USSR doesn't exist as such anymore, and what's left is a basket case. The economic gains in China have all occurred since they allowed individual initiative (i.e. capitalism) to exist. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but let's not just make stuff up. Terry

Castuserraticus · October 14, 2008

I classify Canada as conservative socialist. We haven't had laissez Faire capitalism for a long time. When there are funding issues with social programs the government listens to the actuarials and adjusts the payroll deductions. And we have protection of property rights and the freedom to make whatever we want of our lives. I think we have a real good balance.

DonAndersen · October 14, 2008

Guys/Gals,

A brief history of Canada

Vote Conservative. Every 20 years or so Canada does. Then the Conservatives come to power, last a term or 2 and disappear back to their roots.

Canada's equivalent to a dose of the "salts".

But do recall Brian Mulroney - his popularity was less when he disappeared than the number of people who believed Elvis was alive.

Don

Smitty · October 14, 2008

I agree with almost everything you said, we do need taxes, im not for eliminating taxes, and a civilized place will have taxes. But the only thing you differed on was the statement I made that lowering taxes leads to recession, and I guess thats something we cant really prove or disprove. Well at least both of us didn't provide any evidence, and if we wanted we could probably find evidence for both sides. True the rich pay most the taxes, but percentage wise they pay an unfairly low amount. People makin 10 mil a year could pay 5 mil a year in taxes just like the middle class and still have their big car and house and whatever else they want to buy... i believe the lower you make the less taxes you should have to pay, and vice versa, up to a certain point. If millions a year isnt enough to feel like you made it or advanced enough financially theres something wrong. I agree that certain small companies and such need tax beaks to hire more people and pay their employees and keep their business going, but some of the profits you see from these huge companies are grotesque.
PS all the economic courses in our universities are very biased towards capitalism... remember socialism is an economic theory as well, one that worked for thousands and thousands of years, and what capitalism always shifts towards once it starts to collapse. The best system is a capitalism/socialism mixture, which we've never found a perfect balance of so far, but isnt too far, IMHO.

Mvdaog:

My gut tells me I could probably dig up more credible evidence for my position than some that would support yours. But, I'll be frank, I'm too busy and too lazy. So I'll be content just bat the ball around.

But it blows my mind our very "Canadian" attitude toward the wealthy; its like we have some sense of entitlement to ride their coat-tails; its ridiculous. 74% of wealth is created through entreprenuerialship - meaning people/entrepreneurs/small businessmen assume all kinds of risk - including going broke and not being able to make ends meet and support their families, just to try to succeed. And that success should be commensurate to reward. I don't resent wealthy people for the simple fact that - for the most part - they busted their ass to get there, while risking much. Good for them I say.

But imagine how they feel now when their fellow Canadian comes up and says: "Well, you've made it, now give us 50 cents for every dollar you earn." How ridiculous is that! Its actually a disincentive to grow your business. You use adjectives like "grotesque" to describe profits. Its a very stereotypical Canadian attitude to bite the hands that feed us. The life blood of this country and the Canadian economy are our resources and the companies that, yes, I'll say it, exploit those resources to our benefit. Restraining ourselves from taxing the crap out of the wealthy and corporations will ensure that shmo's like me have a job.

And again, this is the part where I need bold, underline, and italics: You can say all of the above like I did and still be in favor of the environment and regulation. I do not believe in Lassez-faire economics. A capitalist society needs regulations. (financial crisis anyone?). And yes, we could be doing a lot more, and working with these companies a lot more to substantially reduce environmental impact. I believe smart people could devise a regulatory system that generously rewards forward-thinking, progressive, green companies, while penalizing companies that stay stuck in the 20th century. That what drives me nuts about politics; people think its either your for the environment and against companies, or vice versa. Its not black and white, yet our politicians treat the voters like we think in crayons and must choose between the two. Like we couldn't figure out a 3rd, 4th, and 5th way of doing this.

Anyways, higher taxes aren't the answer. More efficient spending and less waste first. Go to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation website and learn about the Canadian govt's - Liberal and Conservative - addiction to wasteful spending.

And just remember, its real easy to resent the guy making 10 million dollars a year. And real easy to forget that rich people build libraries, museums, art galleries, concert halls, and contribute more to charitable giving than any other subset in Canadian/American society. And before the cynics say "yeah, well, its just a write off for them" consider a man I used to hate - Bill Gates, for making a sh**ty operating system and accumulating billions of dollars of net worth, is now, along with Warren Buffett, the largest philanthropists in the world. Hundreds of thousands of Africans are going to get medication, clean water, and education because of two "rich" "capitalists".

Smitty

DonAndersen · October 14, 2008

Some facts:

* Total tax revenue in Canada as a percentage of GDP puts us down a 21st place of the 30 OECD counties. That was before Harper's 2007 tax cuts.

* Wages as a percentage of GDP in 1992 were 55.4%, 1993 - 55%, 2005> 50.3%. A 5.2% difference was $ 7.3 billion in 2005

* Corporate Profits as a percentage GDP in 1992 4.7%, in 1993 > 5.7% , 2006>13.9%

* Between 1976>1990, average per capita income hardly changed, the top 0.01% of earners saw their income double.

* in 2005 the average top-paid CEO made $9.6 million and the top 100 ranged from $ 2.87>74.82 Million

* the highest paid CEO makes as much as a small town of 1969 people working @ average wages

* in 2005 the pay for corporate directors was up 41% over 2 years - about 10 times the average worker increase.

* in 2003 net corporate profits were $102.6 Billion, 2004>132.3 Billion, 2006>`168.2 Billion