Open Spaces - Closed Minds

[Neil Waugh]

I note absolutely no discussion about Morton's proposed Open Spaces pilot project which is burning up the hunting boards. One component - called RAMP - will apply to anglers as well and the bullet and bow guys. Where landowners will get paid a hunter/anlger day fee for allowing access and habitat protection. Where the RAMP cash comes from has yet to be identified. And whatever happened to the high water mark? The ranchers are all for it. Which may be bad news for us.

[Brownstone]

Thanks for posting this Neil,Dunno how everbody (including myself) missed this. I read your article and seems to me a good idea at first but kinda scares me when you think this maybe the early beginnings of the same situation they have in the UK, pay to fish on private beats.

 

Check it out - Neils Article

[bigbowtrout]

Since this only came out a few weeks ago and Neils article came out on the 16th maybe Neil could have come on here and been the first to inform us as he does have an advantage being in the media and his job is to look for this sort of thing. But no he waits and waits then comes on

 

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=11404

[Inconnu]

I've been pursuing this on a hunting board, my apologies for not doing so here for some reason I had this mental block which did not let me see the relevence towards fishing.

Nonetheless and even if you have no faith in your Government, everyone needs to write to your MLA and let he or she know how you feel. Discussion here or anywhere is good, but action is even better. I believe this would be the worst possible scenerio, even if it starts with what may appear to some as good intentions. We should not overlook the obvious conflict of interest in the choice of the areas as well.

So I have to say this sends chills down my back, it is indeed a wedge and whan has the government ever backed off on a bad idea? To me they are once again patting us all on the back and telling us not to worry they will take care of us.

In my opinion if we let this happen without a fight, then we will deserve what we get.

Sitting down to type out a letter is just a few minutes of our time compared to a lifetime of change should this go through.....Kerry

[Neil Waugh]

I've been pursuing this on a hunting board, my apologies for not doing so here for some reason I had this mental block which did not let me see the relevence towards fishing.

Nonetheless and even if you have no faith in your Government, everyone needs to write to your MLA and let he or she know how you feel. Discussion here or anywhere is good, but action is even better. I believe this would be the worst possible scenerio, even if it starts with what may appear to some as good intentions. We should not overlook the obvious conflict of interest in the choice of the areas as well.

So I have to say this sends chills down my back, it is indeed a wedge and whan has the government ever backed off on a bad idea? To me they are once again patting us all on the back and telling us not to worry they will take care of us.

In my opinion if we let this happen without a fight, then we will deserve what we get.

Sitting down to type out a letter is just a few minutes of our time compared to a lifetime of change should this go through.....Kerry

[Castuserraticus]

I'm confused a bit after reading Morton's letter and some of the follow-up posted on the hunting thread. It appears licensed guides are now sold tags that they can then sell to their clients at market rates. This system has been in place for years? There's tremendous uproar about farmers getting the same right? If I was a large landowner and this was a profitable venture then I would have become a "licensed outfitter" years ago as a means of diversifying revenue. Is it presently illegal for a farmer to charge for access to his land? The noted fees of $5-20/hunter day is peanuts unless the rancher has a large spread and can control lots of animals.

 

To me the question should be What is more cost effective - regulating habitat changes or subsidy incentives? Just imagine the uproar if riparian buffers/restoration and forested wildlife corridors/habitat became required/penalized by law. As Morton states - the farmers can't be expected to carry the load of habitat preservation. Therefore, subsidies are the way. Boy, does this open up a can of worms for abuse and misdirection. Subsidies distort markets and create unintended consequences. Once they're in place and people are counting on them they're very hard to remove. A pilot project can quickly become a right.

 

I don't think anything is going to help hunting and fishing grow in popularity, another stated aim. I've tried to be sure my kids are aware they are part of a food chain but with the increasingly urban population the vast majority of people think of food as coming from supermarkets rather than slaughter houses. The only time they see otherwise in the media is when a slaughter facility is facing charges of cruelty.

[Gary]

Our local fish and game club, as I am sure all are, are fighting this proposal as they should be. This concept is not far off what is happening in BC with the classified waters only in a hunting perspective. The rich get the choice bulls....poor pick up what is left. Some of the biggest ranches affected would be the ones down close to Waterton National Park and from what I am hearing is the ranchers down there are not all that happy about it as well because the plan is allow for larger elk herds in the area. Ranchers don't like the elk competing with their cows for range.

 

Hadn't realized this policy would apply to fishing as well.

[Pipes]

I urge everyone to try and dig up as much information on this as possible, although there are even more hunting related impacts. I have tried to read as much as possible and still have not fully understood this initiative.

You can find out some of the info here http://poli.ucalgary.ca/wildlifestewardship/.

I still have a lot of questions, which I asked my current MLA in person on Sunday. He had little clue about this initiative. Some questions I have:

1. Why was the stewardship group privately chosen and why was there not an open invitation for expression of concerns?

2. Why was this initiative rushed through in less than a year?

3. Who chose the 'Working in Group' on this initiative

4. How does supplying guides tags help the public land access problem

5. Farmers bear the cost of wildlife habitat. Yes, but what has changed in over a century. Aren't there other underlying factors which the committe has addressed as far as liability and lack of respect etc? Is merely incentives the answer?

6. There is tremendous resistance to this initiative, so why not postpone this until a later date?

 

I also wrote Ted Morton a letter and got the same canned response, as I had previously received. There seems to be a lot of hypocritical events with Open spaces and I have not been able to gather all the information to make me satisfied that this is all for the greater good of the Alberta fishing and hunting community.

 

Castus, it is currently illegal for a farmer to charge access to his land.

[Tako]

Our local fish and game club, as I am sure all are, are fighting this proposal as they should be. This concept is not far off what is happening in BC with the classified waters only in a hunting perspective. The rich get the choice bulls....poor pick up what is left. Some of the biggest ranches affected would be the ones down close to Waterton National Park and from what I am hearing is the ranchers down there are not all that happy about it as well because the plan is allow for larger elk herds in the area. Ranchers don't like the elk competing with their cows for range.

 

Hadn't realized this policy would apply to fishing as well.

 

I think you're confused as to how resident hunting and guide outfitting works in BC. Your statement (bold) is wrong.

 

Conservation concerns are 1st priority

First Nations get 2nd priority

Residents get 3rd priority

Guides get 4th priority

 

There's been some confusion and some number jugging in allocation this year as to the positions of those last two. But if you're not a lazy azz (and you can afford to get to your destinations), you can kill a trophy of every big game species every year in BC.

 

Yes, there is a large guiding sector. Yes, they have been allocated too many resident tags. No, there is not any correlation between this new AB system and BC's system. Not by a long shot.

 

Oh, and stop complaining about classified waters. There's a few million water bodies not under the CW system. Go fish those, or get Morton to create a CW system in AB. I'll pay it.

[Weedy1]

I'll pay it.

 

Is that why your selling your rifle? So you can afford to fish in BC this summer?

[Gary]

Hey Taco I am comparing what is proposed for hunting here in Alberta to what the classified waters issue is in BC. The classified waters have the special license with the $20 dollar fee. The concept in open spaces as it applies to hunting is the land owner gets compensated for what the impact elk herds have on his land by being given licenses that he can sell to who ever is willing to pay...whether it is a guide or not. He will determine the cost of access and the license at least from what I have been informed of. So if you have the money you can hunt in prime areas. Of course their is still lots of hunting available on public land and good hunting at that.

 

I wasnt implying that in BC the rich get the best places to hunt but that could well be the scenario here under the open spaces.

[Taco]

:huh: Wrong Taco there Gary... I'm the one with the attitude from SA, Tako is the one with the attitude from Northern BC

[Tako]

Hey Taco I am comparing what is proposed for hunting here in Alberta to what the classified waters issue is in BC. The classified waters have the special license with the $20 dollar fee. The concept in open spaces as it applies to hunting is the land owner gets compensated for what the impact elk herds have on his land by being given licenses that he can sell to who ever is willing to pay...whether it is a guide or not. He will determine the cost of access and the license at least from what I have been informed of. So if you have the money you can hunt in prime areas. Of course their is still lots of hunting available on public land and good hunting at that.

 

I wasnt implying that in BC the rich get the best places to hunt but that could well be the scenario here under the open spaces.

 

So is it any different than buying your landowner buddy a bottle of GM or Crown at the end of the season for allowing you to hunt there ????????? Doesn't seem like it. But then again, I haven't had time to read it all yet.

Looks like it opens up a lot of previously inaccessible hunting area. Why the complaints? If you don't want to participate, probably takes the pressure off public land???

 

I'm selling my rifle because I'm piss broke and need to make it to May, when I'll have a job

[hydropsyche]

Oh, and stop complaining about classified waters. There's a few million water bodies not under the CW system. Go fish those, or get Morton to create a CW system in AB. I'll pay it.

 

Tako, I'm going to bitch about the CW rip off for a very, very long time. Its still a very sore point here. At the expo, at last weeks sportsman show. I'm sure there are a lot of people on both sides of the boarder who wish the bitching would just go away, but it won't. Sorry.

 

For whats its worth, so far I don't like the smell of the Open Spaces deal. When I learn enough to have an informed opinion, I'll be sharing it.

[monger]

Another problem with open spaces is that the "rich" will be able to circumvent the draw every year and get access to tags (from landowners) that the average resident has to wait a number of years to receive (from the government). Once we start selling off elk and mule deer to the highest bidder, what will stop the sale of other species later on? I wonder how loud the landowners in the rest of the province will yell when only the ranchers in WMU 300 and 108 get to make money off of PUBLIC WILDLIFE?

At a meeting in Calgary recently, one of the ranchers down by Waterton said that if this program that will allow him to sell hunting tags dosen't go through he will let a bunch of Natives come on his land and eliminate all the wildlife. Wow, what a great stewart of the land. Greed brings out the best in people.

[Tako]

Tako, I'm going to bitch about the CW rip off for a very, very long time. Its still a very sore point here. At the expo, at last weeks sportsman show. I'm sure there are a lot of people on both sides of the boarder who wish the bitching would just go away, but it won't. Sorry.

 

For whats its worth, so far I don't like the smell of the Open Spaces deal. When I learn enough to have an informed opinion, I'll be sharing it.

 

Me too

 

You go right ahead and complain. But when you want GOOD fishing, non-CW. You come talk to me Heck, I bet ol Maxwell knows em too.

[Weedy1]

Once we start selling off elk and mule deer to the highest bidder, what will stop the sale of other species later on?

 

I thought we already were, or had at least started. Never did like this auction and figured one day it would lead to crap like open spaces. They even sold it at an American auction. The Americanization of Canada at its best.

 

http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/whatsnew/interestbighornsheep.aspx

[hydropsyche]

You go right ahead and complain. But when you want GOOD fishing, non-CW. You come talk to me

 

I will. And I promise to not bitch one iota while in your presence!