Neil Waugh Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Ted Morton - a political scientist as well as a fly fisher - has a standard stump speech that he gives whenever he's speaking to anglers and hunters. Where he talks about the politics of fishing - a fact that appears to be lost on a lot of the tunnel vision elites on FFC. Politics is all about numbers. When your numbers decline below a critical point you no longer have the political clout to assert your agenda. That's why he has initiated a number of hunter/angler recruitment initiatives. It also makes the $100 fishing license boondoggle the dumbest thing anyone has come up with for a long, long time. Unless there is a large and engaged body of anglers demanding our fair share of government resources, there won't be bios, fish cops, hatchery programs for stillwaters, resource allocators and all the other bureaucrats who make up the Fish and Wildlife Division. The only organization that's actively participating in Real Politics for anglers and hunters in the province these days is the Alberta Fish and Game Association. You may not agree with all their policies but at least they're doing it. Others like TUC. Ducks Unlimited. Pheasants Forever, etc. are simply faking it when it to comes to grinding it out with the government. As a result AFGA is the most effective outfit in bringing about change. Mainly because they have the largest numbers and are active in many Alberta communities. Something that TUC has refused to engage in. I say this as somebody he serves on the TU Edmonton dinner committee which raises thousands of bucks each year to keep Mother Church in Calgary afloat. To propose a restrictive license wall that actively discourages the casual/entry level angler from participating is about as naive as it gets. As for UK river bailiffs, my experience with them is their main job to make sure only fee-paying anglers are on the water and to keep all others off the property. Streamwatch they ain't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadensis Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 The sad reality is with the current economic climate and the squeeze being put on the PC's more Government enforcement on our waterways would be very close to, if not at the bottom of the priority list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwell Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Forgive my naivete, but if college students (I believe that is who is being used for streamwatch?) can be trained and then sent out to "catch the bad guys," why can't there be a course offered to fishermen interested in helping out? I don't know what powers the interns have but fishermen who have taken the course should at least be able to collect evidence (pics of fish/tackle/technique) and ask to see their license number. They could then file a formal report and the C/O's could follow up on that. I'm just thinking that 5 interns aren't as good as 50 of us that would be willing to be trained. Am I out to left field here or what? Cheers. We already have over 200 County Police in Alberta, they however have no enforcement in any F&W infractions. These being in place already would not cost additional funds and at least offer some sort of presence. Could this be another avenue for enforcement? too the both of yall I F*CKN WISH i could rake in madd cash for our fisheries..... someday!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfishfairwx Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 Ted Morton - a political scientist as well as a fly fisher - has a standard stump speech that he gives whenever he's speaking to anglers and hunters. Where he talks about the politics of fishing - a fact that appears to be lost on a lot of the tunnel vision elites on FFC. Politics is all about numbers. When your numbers decline below a critical point you no longer have the political clout to assert your agenda. That's why he has initiated a number of hunter/angler recruitment initiatives. It also makes the $100 fishing license boondoggle the dumbest thing anyone has come up with for a long, long time. Unless there is a large and engaged body of anglers demanding our fair share of government resources, there won't be bios, fish cops, hatchery programs for stillwaters, resource allocators and all the other bureaucrats who make up the Fish and Wildlife Division. The only organization that's actively participating in Real Politics for anglers and hunters in the province these days is the Alberta Fish and Game Association. You may not agree with all their policies but at least they're doing it. Others like TUC. Ducks Unlimited. Pheasants Forever, etc. are simply faking it when it to comes to grinding it out with the government. As a result AFGA is the most effective outfit in bringing about change. Mainly because they have the largest numbers and are active in many Alberta communities. Something that TUC has refused to engage in. I say this as somebody he serves on the TU Edmonton dinner committee which raises thousands of bucks each year to keep Mother Church in Calgary afloat. To propose a restrictive license wall that actively discourages the casual/entry level angler from participating is about as naive as it gets. As for UK river bailiffs, my experience with them is their main job to make sure only fee-paying anglers are on the water and to keep all others off the property. Streamwatch they ain't. Neil The Riverkeepers is a concept idea only to me, somebody dedicated to keeping a river safe and the resource safe .. so in a way keeping poachers and others law breakers off the rivers is perfect.. "think with your 6wt billy, whip!!!! get off the river you lawless bastard wheres me sexy sheep"!!! Warning gay poky thing follows I am not advocating putting the cost of a fishing license up to $100. However the conservation Stamp or levee if you wish that goes directly and completely to the supporting the resource in a damn good idea.. It works for NB and others why not here.. damn site more money here then NB.. and resource to fish for I might add. I do not care which non-government body is chosen to administer the funds.. AFGA, AGA, DFO, TU, DU, even some of the characters here on FFC, but and there is always a but there has to be a priority of projects and the will to carry them out.. and the sum total of the funds must be used for the public resource not administration or other *hit. Even groups such as the aforementioned can ask for funds to do projects, and receive it.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rickleblanc Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I may be urinating into the wind, but every time I hear or read that CO's don't get overtime, and they don't get enough money for gas, I can't help but think of schoolteachers. These people care so much about educating our children, it's uncommon for them NOT to work unpaid overtime, and pay out of pocket for supplies. I'm certainly not saying this is right, just that it would be heartening to see the same level of dedication from our CO's Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtforward Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I may be urinating into the wind, but every time I hear or read that CO's don't get overtime, and they don't get enought money for gas, I can't help but think of schoolteachers. These people care so much about educating our children, it's uncommon for them NOT to work unpaid overtime, and pay out of pocket for supplies. I'm certainly not saying this is right, just that it would be heartening to see the same level of dedication from our CO's Rick Rick..This is a troll right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadensis Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 I may be urinating into the wind, but every time I hear or read that CO's don't get overtime, and they don't get enought money for gas, I can't help but think of schoolteachers. These people care so much about educating our children, it's uncommon for them NOT to work unpaid overtime, and pay out of pocket for supplies. I'm certainly not saying this is right, just that it would be heartening to see the same level of dedication from our CO's Rick LoL... Thanks for providing my friday laugh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rickleblanc Posted October 30, 2009 Share Posted October 30, 2009 LoL... Thanks for providing my friday laugh! Glad I could help. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leachman Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I think they should raise the cost of licenses to around 100$ for a year and then have a license you can buy that lasts 1 month for about 25$ for people that don't like to fish all year long There always saying they don't have the funds so raise the cost to fish. Ya some people might not buy one at a higher price but I think most of us would. $100 dollars for a license is ridiculous. i would pay (bought 6 already this year, maybe $250 worth) but how many people would be fishing illegally? you would probably sell half the licenses, if that. fishing is costly enough already. i cant get most of my friends to go unless i would supply the gear. fishing needs to attract people ( unless they fish the same water as me!) not discourage them with higher fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 $100 dollars for a license is ridiculous. i would pay (bought 6 already this year, maybe $250 worth) but how many people would be fishing illegally? you would probably sell half the licenses, if that. fishing is costly enough already. i cant get most of my friends to go unless i would supply the gear. fishing needs to attract people ( unless they fish the same water as me!) not discourage them with higher fees. $100 dollars is nothing for the right to fish for the whole year. I think most of us would buy one if the money was going to enforcement or to the resource. You need to find friends that can supply their own gear maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rehsifylf Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I may be urinating into the wind, but every time I hear or read that CO's don't get overtime, and they don't get enough money for gas, I can't help but think of schoolteachers. These people care so much about educating our children, it's uncommon for them NOT to work unpaid overtime, and pay out of pocket for supplies. I'm certainly not saying this is right, just that it would be heartening to see the same level of dedication from our CO's Rick Actually. Anyone who is a teacher or has a spouse as a teacher, probably wasn't laughing. The average person has no idea the hours that teachers put in during the school year. They get compensated with the summer off. Why couldn't we run the COs the same way. Pay them a salary based on 2000 hours per year. They could work more in the summer (without time and a half) then get the December through F.eb off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryH Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 ................. Pay them a salary based on 2000 hours per year. They could work more in the summer (without time and a half) then get the December through F.eb off One reason why this won't work -- it's spelled A.U.P.E. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rehsifylf Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 One reason why this won't work -- it's spelled A.U.P.E. Terry Far as a know, the ATA is as union as you can get, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadagrey Posted October 31, 2009 Author Share Posted October 31, 2009 CO's have responsibility for hunting and hard water fishing as well, we need them all year. The real issue is we don't have enough of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rickleblanc Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 Actually. Anyone who is a teacher or has a spouse as a teacher, probably wasn't laughing. The average person has no idea the hours that teachers put in during the school year. They get compensated with the summer off. Why couldn't we run the COs the same way. Pay them a salary based on 2000 hours per year. They could work more in the summer (without time and a half) then get the December through F.eb off I didn't intend it to be a joke, but considering how negative some reactions on this board can be, I figured I should count my blessings if the worst I got was laughs. My Mom was a teacher, as are a couple of my friends. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suntoucher Posted October 31, 2009 Share Posted October 31, 2009 I didn't intend it to be a joke, but considering how negative some reactions on this board can be, I figured I should count my blessings if the worst I got was laughs. My Mom was a teacher, as are a couple of my friends. Rick I thought you worked at the fishin' hole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adc Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I agree with much of the above -- i.e. the need for a Streamwatch program, given that the government is probably never going to provide a suitable level of enforcement. For this reason, I've supported the program in tangible ways -- i.e. cash donations, donations to the online auction, and I will continue to give. However, I am concerned that if Streamwatch is going to be an ongoing program, as opposed to a stop gap measure, there is the risk of donor fatigue setting in. Perhaps that is already happening. Anyway, where I'm headed is to suggest that a formal report be published at the end of each season. The report should give statistics on the number of warnings, charges, convictions etc. so that donors and potential donors can see the impact of the program. Terry I've been busy------haven't checked the FFC Board in a while..........You're right, Terry, we WILL suffer donor fatigue and in fact we did this year..........The FFC auction this year raised just short of $6K compared to $10K last year.......Individual cash donations were almost non existent this year...........We DO publish a formal Stream Watch report each year detailing our activities including angler checks, tickets, warnings, etc........Check the website and anyone can get a copy if they wish.........The report for 2009 will be out sometime in January....... There have been a lot of good points made but the reality is that it is what it is and whining and bitching about it doesn't accomplish much.........Therefore, as concerned anglers, if we feel we need to have some dedicated "officers" on some of our more vulnerable fisheries, Stream Watch is one way to accomplish that......I'm sure there may be other ways as well and would welcome any and all suggestions........Sure, we should all fight for more enforecement and more protection of our resource but as Neil Waugh said, it's really up to us and the organizations we support to get it done, recognising the reality of the way it is.......... We are continuing to pursue ALL the various options to inject more government funding into the Stream Watch program to supplement corporate and angler donations.......After meeting with Ted Morton in August 2008 we were "encouraged" to apply for funding through the Alberta Lotties program, which we did.......Unfortunately we have yet to hear the result of our application but are hopeful that it will be positive and will supplement 2010 S.W. acitivities..........There is a plethora of government programs which, if you have the time to get throught the sticky tape, could help....... In southern Alberta we need 2 Stream Watch officers to protect the Oldman/Livingstone and Castle/Carbondale drainages........When we start our fundraising push for 2010 I hope everyone who believes in Stream Watch will be there to help....... Cheers...... Al.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rickleblanc Posted November 1, 2009 Share Posted November 1, 2009 I thought you worked at the fishin' hole You're correct. What are you saying, I should know all about unpaid overtime? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Just a slight bit off topic, but would streamwatch be able to accept a law enforcement college student for a summer program? Or does in have to be some one directly in the F+W program? I certainly know where poachers are likely to be hiding!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 adc... In southern Alberta we need 2 Stream Watch officers to protect the Oldman/Livingstone and Castle/Carbondale drainages. Just two officers...please explain how two ppl can govern those rivers..do they just go to the parking areas and sit and wait till ppl show up..or do they walk the rivers from top to bottom checking ppl on their way..personally two is Not Enough..there should be one person per top river..and there should NOT be any argument as to having "6" 'deputies', consisting of volunteers, deputized for just that, doing the checking working under the supervision of the main officer..I'm sure there are quite a few in this forum that would jump at the chance to help out if they were asked..but it seems that there is Always a wall put up when ppl start to get angry when they start to question groups who say they are working for them.. you know the old saying cause this is a political one.."Bullshit Baffles Brains".....................Wolfie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonAndersen Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Wolfie, I would expect that a lot of people would share your frustration of only 2 officers but: 1] unless you personally fund more - it isn't gonna be more than 2 2] the folks like ADC and Clive have worked hard along with the online auction folks to raise the funds they have. 3] The Govt is no going to spend another $ on enforcement. Get it - NOT ANOTHER DOLLAR 4] unless those that care get off their butts - nothing gets done. And finally - when all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done. catch ya' Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adc Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 We need to live with the reality of volunteers/funding. While it would be nice to have someone on every vulnerable piece of water it isn't practical through SW. We barely had enough for one officer in 2009. And no, these student officers patrol the rivers--they don't just "sit in the parking lot and wait for someone to show up"........One of the main reasons we need Stream Watch is that they are dedicated to fisheries and don't get called out on hunting issues, bear alerts etc. etc. as do the regular F&W guys...........We all know we need more enforcement but unless you have a really big cheque book it ain't quite that easy..........As DA says, there won't be $1 more for enforcement through F&W so it's up to us...........And yes, Brian, I think the hiring crew might look at a Law Enforcement student with the right maturity, interest and credentials..........I would be glad to make Kevin aware of your interest so that you could interview this spring if you're interested....... Al..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyfishfairwx Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 We need to live with the reality of volunteers/funding. While it would be nice to have someone on every vulnerable piece of water it isn't practical through SW. We barely had enough for one officer in 2009. And no, these student officers patrol the rivers--they don't just "sit in the parking lot and wait for someone to show up"........One of the main reasons we need Stream Watch is that they are dedicated to fisheries and don't get called out on hunting issues, bear alerts etc. etc. as do the regular F&W guys...........We all know we need more enforcement but unless you have a really big cheque book it ain't quite that easy..........As DA says, there won't be $1 more for enforcement through F&W so it's up to us...........And yes, Brian, I think the hiring crew might look at a Law Enforcement student with the right maturity, interest and credentials..........I would be glad to make Kevin aware of your interest so that you could interview this spring if you're interested....... Al..... Well as weird as it sounds it does sound as if everyone has dismissed the $5.00 conservation stamp/levee added to the cost of a hunting and fishing license.. It has been stated here that the cost of a license in AB is a bargain yet nobody wants to fork out an extra "fin" to go directly to the recovery of the resource here in AB.. it has worked tremendously well in NB and I believe BC.. and it was the hunters and Fishers of NB that pushed for the stamp, got it and then the volunteer groups that put the monies to damn good use.. ohh well I guess like Don Anderson says "And finally - when all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawgstoppah Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 And yes, Brian, I think the hiring crew might look at a Law Enforcement student with the right maturity, interest and credentials..........I would be glad to make Kevin aware of your interest so that you could interview this spring if you're interested....... Al..... Well... I'd sure rather be on the "doing" side of this than the "saying were gonna do it" side of this. I've been a big donater of items for the auction, would still try and do at least one.... asfor the position.... I'd love to be interviewed! I'll be free from april to end of Aug can you send me the details so I might get into contact with him please Al? thanks a ton! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adc Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Well... I'd sure rather be on the "doing" side of this than the "saying were gonna do it" side of this. I've been a big donater of items for the auction, would still try and do at least one.... asfor the position.... I'd love to be interviewed! I'll be free from april to end of Aug can you send me the details so I might get into contact with him please Al? thanks a ton! pm sent......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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