DaveJensen

Sorry, I haven't read this all - a west coast spring creek is calling me as soon as I get off line! Don's got it bang on, but there needs be a bit more - the real question here is: How do you want fisheries managed? Do you want it based on popular vote or science? Popular vote - qualitative "I think it's crowded and I think the river is too busy - and so do my friends and people I know & connect with". Science - quantitative "The data says there is a healthy stock of fish, an advancing/ declining stock, etc. There are X people using that stock." As Don pointed out, and something that I raised (strongly) at the FRT guide lic mtg last year, the commercial side of things is the very last user group, lumped in with netters, etc. Tying into that is the process by which our fisheries is managed. That process is based on science that says there has to be bilogical burden of proof showing impact (this can be +/-), public support, as well as political will. This process is sometimes slow, however, it must be in place to avoid knee jerking. That all said, in essence, to work within the system we have, someone somewhere will have to develop a system within our system that establishes the criteria upon which the trigger is clicked to say "too much use", and the users are curtailed, beginning with guides. Based on that, however, you will not get 100% business/shop/guide support to close off guiding, so this will have to be imposed on guides - so don't look to the guide world to initiate this. Personally, there should be limits to what waters guides should do business but how do we establish that - because guiding is simply business and if you preclude guiding, then shouldn't you then also preclude logging, o&g, ag, etc from the same watershed - and you know that'd fly really well in Ab. Bottom line, this can't be popular / feel vote. There has to be a baseline trigger for the allocation of use established per watershed/type in order to determine when the threshold is crossed. Anyway, the sun is shining and it's time to go hunt a brown here in NZ. Just make sure you think of process, the ramifications of process, and how one decision in one area becomes precedent for unintended outcome/reaction for another. Which is why fish mgt can't be popular vote. Cheers

Firefrog - this is one of situations where a 50 year old fly fisher ultimately acts like a 13 year old boy - "it can't happen to me!". This isn't a slight to everyone who hasn't had Lyme, but man, until you get it, you don't get it... and when you get it and look in hindsight, you kick yourself that you didn't take precautions. It really, really sucks. Hopefully your treatment clears everything up. Make sure you follow the recommendation of treatment a minimum month past the very last symptom's appearance. The amazing thing is that the Canadian medical system says that fewer than 500 cases a year occur in Canada. I know 3 people that have had it this year. I guess we fly fisher types have the market cornered in a niche fraternity! Or, the Canadian medical folks have their heads in the sand. Best of luck and be sure to post updates as you recover.

This is wonderful. Great to hear. Don, if you recall, in a similar thread a year ago, I'd mentioned that the techs and bios were very much monitoring these lakes and treating them as a 'work in progress' and were more than willing to respond to the data collected and provide opportunity for anglers to remain involved. While you were more than willing to jump all over me for not knowing anything, that they weren't doing anything to better the fishery, that the dept is inept, and wanted to argue this point 10 ways to Sunday, it appears that these guys are doing exactly as they said. And that is wonderful. The bigger picture remains - fisheries is an ongoing people management experiment and we have to remain involved and try to foster positive change.

Here's the rub with the Canadian test - it's 40% effective! I feel for you. Lyme can really wreak havoc and I was quite lucky, thanks to an ex-step dad that had me paranoid back in the 70s about Lyme, and I had a great doctor that was willing to have a go without a positive test - what I mean there is that they don't like to do the tests for a min of 6 weeks to allow it to show up but by that time it will disseminate, which is nuts. So, we went ahead and treated it for Lyme per the recommended treatment. The thing about this disease is that once it disseminates into your body, generally in the second generation of spores in month 2, it is far tougher to rid out of your system. I was keenly aware of Lyme, and Amelia & I were frantic about making sure we knew what we were possibly up against. I was also lucky as I had the aggressive co-infection after being bitten and my symptoms came on fast and hard. With that I had it for 6 or 7 weeks until it cleared up. But my God I couldn't touch the lake water at Fortress for doubling over in crying pain - my nervous system was an instant wreck. My whole body tingled. I had night sweats that SOAKED the bed. My headache was unreal. http://flyfishalberta.blogspot.com/2011/06...disease-eh.html Kathryn Maroun of What A Catch tv show is really battling Lyme disease right now too. She's getting treatment in California and has to fly out every couple weeks for treatment. The Canadian medical folks are light years behind on this. Consider that 20,000 cases are confirmed annually in the USA, with an estimated 5 times that number undiagnosed. And the map of the highest concentrations in the USA is along the Canadian border. This past spring there were accounts of high tick numbers with Lyme showing up in Canmore and around the Stauffer area. It is here. Get in touch with the canlyme folks. They can be a godsend. Fewer than 1/2 the folks with Lyme disease ever recall a tick bite. My doctor is Dr Moffat in Red Deer. Maybe he might believe / work with you as he worked so well with me. See if you can get in to talk to him or see if he'd refer you - he knew of a tick specialist. But, there again - the folks at canlyme are really good to work with. If you go on antibiotics, the test will almost certainly come back negative as well. The spores hide themselves quite well. If you go on long term antibiotics, beware the sunburns! I have another friend that I am convinced has Lyme but he's been diagnosed with a series of malladies including chronic fatigue syn. The symptoms list screams Lyme. Reading: http://canlyme.com/2008_October_Burrascano..._guidelines.pdf http://www.ilads.org/files/ILADS_Guidelines.pdf Hope this helps & good luck! Don't take "I don't know" or "Maybe it's something else" or "the test said it was negative" as an answer. Push hard, and when closed doors pop up - follow up with others. It's your health and Lyme is no way to spend your future. Dave

Don, your spreading of misinformation is staggering. This is a PP2 issue. Dam downstream, no other waters above are to be affected. Please, everyone, understand that this is not going to have anything to do with any tribs above the Dickson Dam. Vance is the PP2 bio only and has no dealing with ES2 waters. http://www.mywildalberta.com/Events/Events...dar.aspx?id=793 So that everyone understands, I've literally been the only person to attend every Red Deer Region Fisheries Round Table meetings in pursuit of any kind of protection for the RDR w/f and browns. At these public meetings, 2 other trout people have attended a mtg once. I've tried to get TUC involved in process for the river, however, nobody bothers to show for these mtgs. Through the mtgs the past 8 years, I've finally managed to get Vance to go so far as to try to change the regs to protect the fall spawning season. My goal since day #1 has been to get the RDR Fisheries Management Plan opened for review as it is nearly 20 years old and many facets have changed and need attention. Am I frustrated that it has taken so long to only get this far and that literally nobody else has bothered to pursue this? You bet! In the current proposed regulation change - the idea is simply to afford spawning protection for fall spawners while gov process evolves. Like it or not, we have to deal with gov process. This regulation move is a short term check while Vance begins procedure on the RDR Fisheries Mgt Plan. That process will likely see 3 or 4 years pass before the resulting mgt plan results from process & includes whatever regulation changes come of that process. Would you rather allow the w/f pops decline for 4 more years (min) while process occurs or ensure they are protected so we have some semblance of a population when the FMP comes to be? The fall closure is for the benefit of w/f and browns, and piggy backs onto the spring closure to protect the warm water spp. While we lose 2 months of fishing, we protect a prey spp that is the life blood of the walleye (native spp). There are otters in the area, however, in 1000+ floats I have never seen one. I am sure there are a couple around. For clarification, a 24" brown is as much a top level predator as a 24" walleye. It also utilizes a wider variety of food sources based on availability. The issue of opening the river to walleye retention is valid and one that I raised the past few years at the Red Deer Region Fisheries Round Table meetings. I raised the point out of consideration for other fish users in the river as the walleye pop appears quite healthy. However, this goes back to my 10+ year goal to have the RDR Fisheries Mgt Plan reopened. The idea in the short term is to get fall spawners some protection. Whitefish are one of the top prey spp in the river, and given their populations have fallen way off the map, they need protection. Lower the limit and give them some spawning protection in the short term until the Dept can get process going on the RDR FMP. Otherwise we simply allow continued deterioration of the w/f stocks. Most everyone understands predator - prey relationships. As I've mentioned several times previously, to have the RDR FMP opened for discussion is imperative, as it will provide framework for the river's mgt. Otherwise, we end up in a situation like this, where someone pipes up with no clue about what has been discussed at public meetings, few people bother to be involved, and the resource's mgt get little attention due to higher priority items and a lacking budget. In everyone’s feedback to the current regulation review, I ask that you request of Vance that the RDR Fisheries Management Plan be reviewed ASAP so we can get going with proper management of the resource. Cheers

420 - While the surface appearance of cycling for trout and fly fishing doesn't rule the wilderness looks reasonable, clearly you don't appreciate the reality of the fishery, the current state of the valley, how fisheries mgmt has been set up, the existing roads and routes that already exist for other users. The Oreti is likely the world's best river for avg size browns. With that comes low populations and high angler use, which is now managed on the honor system of parking in beat designated parking stalls to ensure people play fairly. Some don't but by & large it has gone well. There are roads and routes in existence that would access the same wilderness without being built beside the river. This has nothing to do with the guides, it has everything to check into reality - that the fishery can't sustain more use. Further, there is another river that we fish often that just had a cycle route built last year and unforseen uses that previously didn't exist suddenly popped up - things like horse teams and wagons using the cycle route. Now, groups of 15 - 20 people openly camp anywhere and use the fishery at will. With 10 fish per km in many instances, it doesn't take long for a river to be fished clean due to the new use. There's far more to think about as well, with the spread of didymo and other invasives to consider. Then there is the whole concept of what do you want your New Zealand to look like in 20, 50, 100 years? Does opening a cycle path - which is to be built for commercial operations in B&Bs, cafes, etc - does this drive NZ or does NZ finally say enough cow-towing to foreign users and realize what they have, what it's true value is, and begin to manage it based on what it is vs what some commercail interest can get? There are much bigger facets at play than just the concern of a cycle path - there are previously committed road routes along the west coast that if built for commercial purposes would change the face of the landscape. It's an interesting discussion and fascinating to watch, if only because not everyone is as keyed in to the long term, bigger picture, future ramification thinking over in NZ.

Time of the year - sometime about Sept 20 (+/-) many mature browns move to spawning grounds on the region's streams. Where many larger (for given waters) fish may have been 1 - 2 weeks earlier, the fish clue in to cooler water and longer shadows and move up to spawn in a lot of instances. There are browns in the James, certainly, but sometimes the 1 to 3 fish in a run might move out this time of the year. If you can find a tiny spring trib to the James or some spring bubbling in a side channel, you'll find 40 - 50 brookies spawning. It's a neat time of the year. Cheers

Harps - great post that might have been missed. Hopefully someone in Calgary / on the Bow will see the light and realize one act like developing such a sign for the common accesses would do very well for the communication and betterment of the community. A great thing that possibly the shuttle companies/ guides/ shops/ TU could work with to ensure the signs are always present as a community service component to their business. In the bigger picture, whatever happened to simply going about one's day and if someone else does something, simply not reacting and not trying to change/educate someone else... simply to carry on enjoying our day and being pleasant when afforded opportunity to interact? None of us are judge and jury, just like Paul's post's points suggest. Why is it the other guy is always wrong when this topic comes up? I've certainly made my mistakes in being over the top and learned from them and certainly have adopted a different approach and perspective. How others act is how others will act and they generally will be oblivious to how they affect others. How we react sets the table for how our day will go. What use is there in ruining your day based on someone else's actions or attitudes? Do we not have the capacity as fly fishers to separate ourselves from that and live happily within ourselves (dare I use the word boundaries?) The Headstones had it right... just smile and wave.

Shouldn't be any different than overloading any old fly rod, should it? We often cast an 8 line on a 6 @ Fortress. The obvious, general results of overloading are: - Great for distance with less effort if you know how to load and shoot (1 false cast will shoot the entire line if you get the feel) - Not good for finesse, soft landings without a good amount of time to learn the feel. Cheers

(obvious lighthearted intended troll reply here) I was wondering the same thing. This forum must be slipping. Gee, our old board had 38 pgs and over 500 replies in 36 hrs followed by RCMP reports due to personal & property damage threats. You guys need to invite the Outlaw/Eagle and AB Jet Boat Assn in here and sing some Kumbaya. Or not. Gee, maybe it really more enjoyable this way... Cheers

What was that old saying... ah yes... no good deed goes unpunished. I don't know why I thought that just now. Good job SW / TU folks. Thanks for your dedication. This stuff is difficult to sort through with so many people, companies, gov, etc involved. It certainly takes time. Thank you for continuing to do this. It is very appreciated.

Depends on the material used. I know that the rafts we've used through the years use the glue from Auto Marine downtown. 2 part. As you mentioned that you replaced the valve, I assume you have the tool to unscrew the valve assembly. I don't know that I would use glue in there because once you commit, you've commited to likely never getting it apart. You're better to clean the bead of material on both the in / outside and re-tighten the valve assembly. Any time you do something on the downwind side of air pressure flow, it's destined to fail, and it's also best to not over commit by doing something like glueing it together. Give the cleaning a go, replace the valve assembly as well. Look at Aquabatics for replacement valve assemblies. BTW - the worst is when it's the inner piece that has failed. It takes a little more time to wiggle it out and the new one in. Cheers

Depends on the objective. If it's simply to get line out on the water with little impact and great distance, or for - say for nymphing or streamers - a casting coach is great. If you can already cast 30 feet reasonably well and want to be able to wade up to a rising or sighted fish and have a chance at it, then a day with a wade guide is the way to go. To see the people I've seen come to New Zealand or our brown trout streams here, and rely on casting without the fundamentals of being a good wade fly fisher, it's amazing. Anyone who can cast a 30 foot straight line and mend reasonably well should be able to have a good chance at every single trout encountered. If you don't have that kind of confidence on the water, I'd spend time with a wade guide to get the fundamentals of good wade fishing. A good guide focusses on the parameters the guest hopes to acheive. Numbers of fish are nice, but a mature guide is able to share so much more. There are several very good ones about, but you'll need to sus out the differences for what you're looking for.

Not to continue the hijack... I've never understood the reasoning behind a shorter rod for in tight situations either. I use 9' rods for Stauffer, hell-a-creeks everywhere. I've never been on a creek where a 9' rod won't work - at worst change the approach and positioning, and simply bow & arrow cast or dap in tight with the longer rod. A bow & arrow dap cast will be good within 20' of the fish, which is more than plenty if your approach is good. I don't know of any stream in Alberta that has a willow/alder canopy that you can cast under. The upper Mataura or mid Taieri in NZ might allow for side arm casting under the willow canopy, but I've honestly found tower and reach casts the most advantageous on Stauffer-like streams and a 9 footer allows for a lot of maneuvering. 9', 4wt, mid flex Helios for me. Formerly 8'8" G series Scott in 4wt, mid to full flex. The wt, length, flex point, and energy to flex are all equally important in developing a feel that works for you. Once you factor in your casting stroke, line speed in different situations, etc, you'll gain more appreciation of exactly what you are really after. And yes, dt vs wf lines do make a difference, as well as who makes the line (materials used, taper dynamics, suppleness of line, etc) as these will be quite different and do different things for you in various situations.

Lynn - Phil & I were there for 11:30 am, where were you? Huh?

On the west coast of the s isl of New Zealand one fine day this year, the small town we were in got 590mm of rain in 20 hrs. I kept a gif of the rain guage because I simply couldn't believe it. That's about 26". The local river went up 14 feet vertically. We were also fishing another stream the next day, which tells you how well that country handles volumes of water. It's quite common to get into 3, 4, or 5 week weather patterns there where fronts roll through every 24 to 36 hrs and each one dumps 150 to 600mm of rain. Not a New Zealand fan? How about the perpetual howling winds of Argentina or the highland plateaus of S America? There's no Holy Grail. Whatever the weather, we must weather the weather, whether we want to or not.

123-A - Always put boat plugs into hole. (can't tell you how many times up at Fortress I've done the face palm...)

Got ours @ McBain here in Red Deer because the staff are consistent (same people for the past 10+ yrs) and we know that they will have the product or know how to get the product, and know what you are trying to accomplish and make good suggestions. The staff are also well trained and well versed in PK, and good communicators. The price aspect is within reason of other places to know that by spending $50 more here or there you know that you are going to get good stuff, be well taken care of, and get a little more info than other places. We don't spend a lot of time in the store (we're not groupies by any means) but when we do go there, it's always very positive. We've heard other McBain stores are similar. Cheers

The fish spooked soon after Mitch got snagged. As you could tell from the vid it was a little put off by the line hanging in the grasses, moving somewhat sideways. Actually, I have a better vid with Mitch that shows the 'that's mine', and it is an amazing thing. But you'll have to wait for that one. Mitch, you should tell them about my self beaching brown in that other wee stream. There are only 2 fish from this whole trip I wished could have been on vid. That was one. Only 3 days left on this 3 month trip. We're headed out now. Cheers.

Ayr - the cicadas in NZ are amazing right now. After this unsettled bit of weather settles down it'll be back at it and carry through early April. Scroll through our blog (signature) to see some shots of the last little while. I missed a 13+ lb fish today. It was cycling, looked at the fly for 15 to 20 sec on a painfully slow drift - the kind it hangs at your fly and drifts with it - and then kept going. Pretty cool when a huge fish hangs inches from your fly in flat water for that long. I certainly wasn't expecting even that much attention in the location I was fishing - so close to the hwy.

Hands up who didn't see this coming... Hmmmm... it’s gonna be like that, eh? Even though I’m here on the other side of the planet, I still have a computer and internet to go along with a video camera. Let’s see if I can dig out some raw footage of someone fishing a little earlier in our trip here... let’s see how he makes out... what should I title this video??? Ah, I know... Click here if the movie does not play. I don’t know if I see the wisdom poking the dude with the video camera. How’s that for pokey thing? I can’t recall though... did I even get a cast near my fish before it spooked? Some of them were a wee silly, esp those at the top end that the cows watched you work. The coolest spring creek I know of. Haven’t been back since you left either – don’t know why. Amazing bit of water with 6 to 9 pounders every 75m in gin clear water. And the effort getting to that bit of water was a little over the top. 300mm of rain on Sunday here out west... or 130kmh winds and dry out east. Pick your poison.

Neat vids. I think Dean's brown would've eaten that rainbow for a mid day snack though.

I saw this on facebook and without commenting at all I'd like to encourage whomever is spearheading the petition to make sure that you run this past a couple of fisheries techs in gov that are aware/involved of the issues on those water bodies, who might be in favor of this. He/she will help with wording and required background so there are no obvious holes, from a gov perspective, forcing you to go backwards or, worse, back to the drawing board with no recognition of any validity. Also, there absolutely has to be a way for gov to be able to spot check contacts on the petition - if those signing it can't be contacted to ensure they did take part, those names are ignored. Just trying to be helpful to ensure this is set up properly from the get go, as the background work will go a long way in determining its success. Please take no offense, the way this has been set up is suspect in some regards - I'm simply trying to be encouraging. My intentions are good, just short and to the point as I'm still out of country. Cheers

Just looking beyond the occurrence with wider scale perspective... The irony for me is the title of the thread. It isn't a big river. If you fly over it, it's simply a little ribbon on the landscape tied to a massive landbase of people. The ribbon of car traffic on hwy #2 is much larger. Those same people that use the river every day. In fall, winter and spring, there is precious little space to spread out and call 'ours'. There's inherent irony embedded in this post - the fact that someone feels a part of the fly fishing community to express something negative that happened, that he'll feel connected and supported, if not commiserated with by its members. The irony is that the community supporting him is, to some degree, fostering additional participation in the sport and growing the problem. The rod breaking is unfortunate. Negative interaction is unfortunate. However, it is part of what we are called on in society to own for ourselves, to realize that in every part of our life, we are at conflict with something or someone, at every moment in our lives. The fallacy perpetuated by the outdoor lifestyle is that everything is wonderful and everyone can have 'theirs'. We can't. But we buy into the fairy tale that we perpetuate in our minds. Does anyone here have a mind's eye dream of a perfect fly fishing moment where there are 10 strangers beside you on the water? The myth we play out in our head at some point has to connect to reality for us to be functional in reality. Eventually, if we repeat the same exercise often, to gain a data set that shows a trend, if we can admit to ourselves that certain things are going to happen if we take part in that activity, we have to pay attention to the data set. We also ultimately have to observe, own, and accept how it affects us, then own our feelings and response to it. We are no rulers of any water. There are hundreds of others who daily use the resource for the same experience in the same finite amount of space. Each of us wants 'ours'. There's your inherent conflict. What psychological state does it reflect to continue to do the same activity, be subjected to or initiate the same conflicts, and expect things to turn in our favor? At what point do we observe what is happening, how the evolution is impacting the activity, be honest about our personalities, and make an honest effort to change how we perceive and deal with the conflict? At what point do we accept the data set that says "this is the way it is", and recognize that with or without us, that conflict is always going to be there, and accept it? At what point do we not let such a simple reality not impact our life, that we can enjoy the day, regardless of what others are or aren't doing? At what point do we adjust our expectations accordingly? We can pine for how things were. Those days and ways are never coming back, and the memories of days gone by are also muddled by the same mind's eye fairy tale that told us it has always been wonderful. It wasn't and never will be perfect like we remember. It's one thing to reflect and learn, it's another to impose or project, add to the conflict or demand the world behave the way we want it to. Nature doesn't respond that way. It rarely favours anyone. It is simply up to us individually how we wish to act, react, and interact in each of these moments. Of course, we can interact to hope for a better future by chatting with people we perceive to be infringing upon us, to hope they see it our way. Sharing why etiquette is what it is to us - should be a good, positive thing. But each of us is only one of 300K fishers with a perspective of what etiquette is. These are just some of the thoughts and observations I made along the ride at our old forum, and continue seeing to this day on various forums. Cheers

Good for them. It's completely legal. Isn't it wonderful that the fishing opportunity exists? Uh... Until the RDR Fisheries Mgt Plan is updated and a new set of regs/rules, etc is implemented that's exactly how you have to look at this. The RDR FMP is supposed to be a working, evolving tool, to be updated every 5 years as the river changes. It was last looked at in 1994. I had personal, verbal, and email assurances from Vance Buchwold 4 of the past 5 years, to me personally and to the local and Alberta Chapters of TU that the RDR FMP would be reopened. I'm frustrated on this issue and need to get support to force the gov to do their job. Yes, at some point it looks like we'll have to get a campaign together for it. We're sitting on a unique brown trout fishery and an excellent walleye fishery. Of course, if common sense takes over, you wouldn't legally be fishing the upper 5km of the tailwater this time of the year anyway. If brown #s are sensitive and whitefish #s are down, as studies show, wouldn't a proper FMP implement protection of the primary spawning areas? I'll email / call Vance again before we leave for NZ and see where things are at.