bigbowtrout Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Ok folks Here is what was sent to me from Riparian Land Management & Water Boundaries Unit Land Management Branch, Lands Division Alberta Sustainable Resource Development This part we kinda had down Chris, this was forwarded to me for an answer. I have received questions like this from others before, particularly about fishing below the banks of the Crowsnest River in southern Alberta. In general, and for the vast majority of water bodies, the Crown is the owner of the stream bed. This is so because the streambeds were never subject to grant and were specifically excluded from titles, or by Section 3 of the Public Lands Act grants title to streambeds to the Crown. There are some exceptions to the general rule. The main exception is lands that were formerly owned by the Hudson's Bay Company. Prior to confederation of Canada, the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC) of fur traders through a Royal Charter from King Charles II of England, owned by deed what was then called Rupert's Land which included all the land in the Province of Alberta as we know it today. When the HBC surrendered its lands in 1870 to the Dominion of Canada, it did so with some conditions attached including the retention of a portion of lands for the HBC. These lands included their posts, a block of land adjoining each post, and a grant of land in each township within the lands set out for settlement not exceeding one twentieth of those lands. Of these lands, the HBC retained ownership of all lands south of the North Saskatchewan River within Section 8 and all of Section 26 except the northeast quarter section in every township as it was surveyed. In every fifth township surveyed, the HBC retained full title to all of Section 26 and all of Section 8. Today, the beds and shores within these parcels of land are generally understood to be owned by the current titleholder as titles based on the original deeds were passed onto subsequent landowners (unless expressly conveyed otherwise). The other exception would be where a land grant/title specifically includes the bed and shore of a stream in its description. The only way to determine this is to view the title. If it is silent (i.e. doesn't say anything) then section 3 applies and the crown owns the bed and shore. Additional information is available on our website at http://srd.alberta.ca/lands/usingpubliclan...boundaries.aspx. Then I did a follow up email asking The two main areas are on the Crowsnest(Sara's B&B SW and NW of 17, Twp 7, Rng 2, W5M) like you mentioned and the Jumpingpound Creek just down stream of highway 1 with the odd mention of the North Raven. From the info you have provided below it would seem that I will need to find the titles of these lands in question or is there a reference somewhere that pinpoints these owners? I have zero knowledge of the workings of land titles and any help would be appreciated. And then I got this responce. Actually, I had a feeling you were implying Sara's as I have heard this many times before when I have been down south! I specifically checked our files before I responded and can tell you that the bed and shore of the Crowsnest River in sections NW 17, SW20 and all of 18 in TWP 7 Rg2 W5 are Crown owned by exception. The titles exclude the river specifically. The adjoining landowners cannot force a fisherman out of the stream bed if they are traversing it below the bank. I am not aware of issues involving Jumpingpound Creek but a legal land location would suffice to begin search of a land title. As I did not ask permision to post his name I have left it off but I hope this clears up a few things and if anyone can give me the land location for the others I will forward it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Big Bow Trout: Your post is an exact example of the very best of what this board offers. Excellent digging, and info, and research! Thank-you! (and I am not even a Crowsnest 'regular'). So, if I am reading your post correctly, all of the land and landowners fronting on the Croswnest have no ownership of banks and streambed? That is, the Crown retains ownership of the banks and streambed for the entire length of the Crow? Anyways, good work, this has been fascinating. Smitty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harps Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Big Bow Trout, excellent leg work!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayhad Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Is there anything availible in print for this? When I have been on the JP and have been told that water is private, I told the farmer he was mistaken and the stream banks were ok, he told me to beat it. I would have prefered to fish but but I wasn't in the mood to fight it out with a farmer. This gives us great ammunition but when the land owner tells you, "you're wrong" what then??? it would be nice to have something that you could show the cops when they arrive. This is not meant to be a critisism, it is just a question as to what do we do next? If land owners continue to push off us of "thier" creeks regardless of legality what can we do to guarentee access. Thanks for the leg work BBT, I have been wondering about this for a while as I frequent the Jumping Pound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 So my question is now what? Seems that many down south "knew" the Sara's had rights, but if I'm reading correctly, not so much. So who gets to be the sacrificial lamb to test this theory out? Please post on youtube, as it should be exciting!! Oh, and Chris, pretty busy at work right now?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Rickr: I'm game if you are. I'll go first, you hold the camera. Smitty P.S. If we were at all serious, we'd bring Hawgstoppah. He's bigger than me, and sounds like he know these folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Yeah, and he's kinda crazy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 I was just trying to clear the air on this issue and to me it's not really worth the hassle to fish these areas but if you want to pull the titles and print them off next to a copy of what was posted in the link above go for it. Or you can ask the RCMP to charge you with trespassing and head to court and prove yourself there. Getting shot over a few trout is not worth it to me but the B&B trying to close access gets me a little as they are trying keep that for there guests only, so that means they are making money off of our backs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hell, I'm in!! P Rickr: I'm game if you are. I'll go first, you hold the camera. Smitty P.S. If we were at all serious, we'd bring Hawgstoppah. He's bigger than me, and sounds like he know these folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhurt Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 If you want a real crazy bastard then I am in!!! Not afraid to tell people where to go. Better yet why not we go to their front door knock on it and inform them instead of beeing crazy calgairians, either way works for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hmmm, Smitty with a camera, bbt with a wolf (i hear when a wolf growls people soil themselves. Im just sayin), uber, all 150 lbs of him, with moral support, or bhurt(the ex football coach) with a bad attitude? Im going to have to go with bhurt. I thought of bbt and wolf, but id be afraid of saying somethin mean to bbt and the wolf growling at me. And we all know what would happen then. Actually, im with bbt on this one. Though i find what they are doing underhanded (though they may believe that they do have stream rights), life is WAY too short to confront over this. B and B people need a place to fish too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhurt Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Rick, I understand where you are coming from but is it still right for them to be so rude (Please not I am going off second hand iformation from previouse post) If I was running the place I would be alot more friendlier to the fishermen as I would want them to spend their money at my establishment. I still think the best route would be to go and knock on the door talk to the people that are running the place and explain to them that there was alot of concern about this spot on the forums and we did some reserch and came up with the following. If they say its bullshit and not true and start to threaten someone then I would bring in the local law enforcement. For me most people do not intimiade me, and those that have seen me on the river know I am friendly at first but if the bastard is arragont to me, well I treat them like I see them. And in closing rick I have a bone to pick, Bad Attitude why you no good piece of crap what the f is wrong with you (Just incase no one sees it I am just giving rick a hard time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Brad, I think your proposed course of action is perfectly acceptable. I wouldnt have the balls quite frankly. I still think someone should film it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrinhurst Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Someone should go in there "incognito" saying they are from....oh, I don't know.....Texas and stay there for a weekend. Bring your fishing gear and strike up a conversation with the owners. See if they'll spill the beans about what legal rights they think they have on the stream. See if they actually believe they have the rights, or if they just tell people that to keep that stretch for the paying customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birchy Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Hmmm, Smitty with a camera, bbt with a wolf (i hear when a wolf growls people soil themselves. Im just sayin), uber, all 150 lbs of him, with moral support, or bhurt(the ex football coach) with a bad attitude? Im going to have to go with bhurt. I thought of bbt and wolf, but id be afraid of saying somethin mean to bbt and the wolf growling at me. And we all know what would happen then. Actually, im with bbt on this one. Though i find what they are doing underhanded (though they may believe that they do have stream rights), life is WAY too short to confront over this. B and B people need a place to fish too! Good choice. As long as you don't have to spell it out for them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhurt Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well who wants to come with me, I have absoultle no problem walking up to the establishment and knocking on the door, I will even bring a six pack of beer as a peace offering. When I go out painting landscapes me and a good friend has on numerous occassions knocked on doors and asked for permission and usally the reception is good, only had one bad experince where the owner threaten to let his dog, which he was holding back and snarling at me, after me, I looked down at the dog and then looked back at the owner and told him if he wanted to press the issuse and let his dog go the dog better kill me else I would burn his house down at a later date, end result he let me onto his land after he realize what he said and once I had a painting done I left it in his mail box with a small note saying thank you for letting me onto his property. Most land owners I have come across or have heard stories about have no problems with people on their land, the key to it as it was pointed out to me, is just to say May I please cross your land in a curtious manner so I can get to the river? Most of the time they all say yes, and as it was pointed out to me by another board member bring beer as a peace offering and every time you cross the land leave a six pack on their front door, its amazing what beer can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think Brad hit it on the head, a little courtesy goes a long way! I remember going up to a house on the Oldman and it was the lady's son who owned that portion of the family's land and she said she would give us permission on his behalf... Worked out great!! Peter quote name='bhurt' date='Jul 30 2009, 07:08 PM' post='95349'] Well who wants to come with me, I have absoultle no problem walking up to the establishment and knocking on the door, I will even bring a six pack of beer as a peace offering. When I go out painting landscapes me and a good friend has on numerous occassions knocked on doors and asked for permission and usally the reception is good, only had one bad experince where the owner threaten to let his dog, which he was holding back and snarling at me, after me, I looked down at the dog and then looked back at the owner and told him if he wanted to press the issuse and let his dog go the dog better kill me else I would burn his house down at a later date, end result he let me onto his land after he realize what he said and once I had a painting done I left it in his mail box with a small note saying thank you for letting me onto his property. Most land owners I have come across or have heard stories about have no problems with people on their land, the key to it as it was pointed out to me, is just to say May I please cross your land in a curtious manner so I can get to the river? Most of the time they all say yes, and as it was pointed out to me by another board member bring beer as a peace offering and every time you cross the land leave a six pack on their front door, its amazing what beer can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayjjones11 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re-read dustin's post. It was the guys staying at the B&B that had the flip out, not the owners themselves. They could have misunderstood the owners. How do we know the no-tresspassing signs are not up just for their land (which is completely legitimate), and the anglers assumed that the river was private. Why not save yourself the argument and go have fun fishing. Either way, Going out of your way for something as simple as guys paying to stay at a B&B and being upset cause they think they're getting leap frogged is a waste of air. The time it would take for you to go to the crow and have the discussion could go a long way in cleaning up garbage on your favourite creek, or finding a rising fish in a favourite stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 I posted this just to try and clear the air. Not to start a toughguy competition or a witch hunt on a B&B. Burning down houses and threats of wolf attacks never need to enter into any story and the same goes with throwing rocks at jet boats or chucking streamers at rafters. All of this proves **** all. Fly fishing is a great peaceful pastime for those that enjoy the outdoors and the thrill of the chase and it should bring out the best in all of us. I bet out there somewhere we have a bunch of land owners talking about us just like we talk about ATVers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 Re-read dustin's post. It was the guys staying at the B&B that had the flip out, not the owners themselves. They could have misunderstood the owners. How do we know the no-tresspassing signs are not up just for their land (which is completely legitimate), and the anglers assumed that the river was private. Why not save yourself the argument and go have fun fishing. Either way, Going out of your way for something as simple as guys paying to stay at a B&B and being upset cause they think they're getting leap frogged is a waste of air. The time it would take for you to go to the crow and have the discussion could go a long way in cleaning up garbage on your favourite creek, or finding a rising fish in a favourite stretch. AMEN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taco Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I posted this just to try and clear the air. Not to start a toughguy competition or a witch hunt on a B&B. Burning down houses and threats of wolf attacks never need to enter into any story and the same goes with throwing rocks at jet boats or chucking streamers at rafters. All of this proves **** all. Fly fishing is a great peaceful pastime for those that enjoy the outdoors and the thrill of the chase and it should bring out the best in all of us. I bet out there somewhere we have a bunch of land owners talking about us just like we talk about ATVers. Ah christ, keep that sensible *hit up and I'm gonna hafta start likin'ya, you're just as bad as that damn rickr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I bet out there somewhere we have a bunch of land owners talking about us just like we talk about ATVers. Probably worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 My involvement will be to go and fish the water to see if there was an "educational opportunity", that's it! Oh and to hopefully get into a few fish P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythagoras Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 I posted this just to try and clear the air. Not to start a toughguy competition or a witch hunt on a B&B. Burning down houses and threats of wolf attacks never need to enter into any story and the same goes with throwing rocks at jet boats or chucking streamers at rafters. All of this proves **** all. Fly fishing is a great peaceful pastime for those that enjoy the outdoors and the thrill of the chase and it should bring out the best in all of us. I bet out there somewhere we have a bunch of land owners talking about us just like we talk about ATVers. Full agreement here.... Pretty disturbed lately about the vigilantism here...who in the fork do we think we are? We got a few guys willing to drive to the cnpass to taunt a B&B owner??? Almost funny if it wasn't true. Posting names/addresses and phone numbers? Not funny at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitty Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Well, I am the one always complaining about tone and intent needs to be clear from the author, if something gets mis-construed, its the authors fault. So, just so I am clear, I was kidding. Sorry for not making the appropriate tone clear. Smitty P.S. BBT, please don't regret doing this research. This info is needed, it will come in handy, hopefully in a non-confrontational way, both on the angler and the landowners part. P.P.S. I will say though, unlike the landowner in the Jumpingpound story, I would never carry a shotgun around with me and approach people like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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