Know Your Rights As A Fisherman And Watch Out For A Holes

[Parry]

This by by no means a complaint or bitching, i just wanted to share a story and make other anglers aware of the right they have to be on the water in alberta. So yesterday (sat) me and Bryce were on the Crow and had covered a ton of water, We come around a bend and run into 2 fly fisherman, the only people we seen the entire day and we were suprised as we were a far ways away from any bridge and they looked older so in the heat of the day it must of been a hell of a hike for these gentleman (gentleman? haha yeah right). So we start walking up to talk to them and see what there fishing plans were so we didnt get in their way and were going to explain that we will huff it a good ways ahead of them so that the water has time to settle down by the time they get there to fish as well as some serious space and untouched water between us. However right from the get go we were met with attitude, so we said enjoy the day and we were heading upstream, which gained the reply of basically "How the hell are you going to do that, you cant go any further up past that strech there are two giant no tresspassing signs and no way your getting on the ****ing land", and we were like huh, then he told us how there was a Farm house on that land and that there was no way we were allowed to be there. Long story short im well aware of the high water mark, and im well aware of ellitest a holes and rich pricks who think that because they or their friend has a house on the river that we live in the US and that river belongs to them. Rather then cause problems me and bryce went and fished the pool just before the no tresspassing signs, and much to their dismay in the heat of the day when the fishing had slowed considerably landed 3 very nice rainbows in a short peiod. Now i woulda let this slide, but when they walked passed us and walked back to their or their friends farm house they gave us more attitude, and let us know for a 2nd time not to touch their piece of heaven. So just so everyone knows, unless they own the water rights in which case you are allowed to be on that water untill they PROVE that they own the water rights by showing you the documentation you are allowed to be on any river and creek within the high water marks. Dont let anyone tell you different. But much like many of you, you are like me and bryce and would rather avoid conflict. So needless to say we turned around and rather then get into an arguement in 30degree heat we headed back the way we had come. So just remember you have a ton of rights as an angler! oh and so anyone who cares this is the house and the people, hell they might even be on this board and some of you might know them, if you do tell them i say "Hi, go @#$( your hat"

 

[dutchie]

DUSTIN

good for you , i hate it when people think they own the river and the fish in them , they in truth only own the land and what even worse is they put signs up and it will fool alot of people to turn around , montana was going through the same troubles and the court case is over , walk in the river as much as you want ,

 

the fish belong to everyone , if they want there own fish , put a trout pond in on the land they own

 

[Hawgstoppah]

that's sara's B&B and, they actually DO own that riverbottom and land. One of the few places in alberta that has been grandfathered in since a long time ago. They have every right to tell you what they told you, to stay off. Maybe there attitude came from having to repeatedly tell people to stay off because no one can read signs, or no one thinks they have the "right" to keep people off their river, when in fact, it IS their river on that particular stretch there nice folks, perhaps it was people staying there that got all attitudy-judy with ya.

[dutchie]

most likely was the people staying there , thought they had the place all to themselves , maybe they should of stayed on that piece of water then instead of moving down the river , they do have to show you the proof they own the water rights in person , not just tell you , heck i could say i own a piece of the crow also , if not then you just carry on fishing

alberta had the same trouble with people who have leased land from the provice , they want it as there own hunting area , some were selling the rights to the outfitters and trying to keep the gates closed

[bloom]

that's sara's B&B and, they actually DO own that riverbottom and land. One of the few places in alberta that has been grandfathered in since a long time ago. They have every right to tell you what they told you, to stay off. Maybe there attitude came from having to repeatedly tell people to stay off because no one can read signs, or no one thinks they have the "right" to keep people off their river, when in fact, it IS their river on that particular stretch there nice folks, perhaps it was people staying there that got all attitudy-judy with ya.

 

 

Yup, that's the Sara's and Hawg's right...nice people and I believe they do own streambed. There is actually one other place on the Crow I know of where the stream bed is owned...it's downstream of the Collieries and to my knowledge, there is no issue of going through there as the owners don't mind.

[Parry]

well good thing i didnt go on their water and try and argue it. Anyways, thats not the point these individuals could have easly had ANY kind of manners instead of viewing us as young punks and politely told us in which case we woulda been happy to turn around. Regardless, i was less then impressed with the way they conducted themselves im 24 and have a ton more class then those 2.

[Harps]

Do they really own the bed and banks... how long have they had that place??

[Carlodabroads]

Sounds like you handled yourself very well Dustin, unlike the others. Just remember, Cooler heads always previal, and Karma is a beyotch. ignorant individuals always lose in the end.

[cdock]

Good on ya for being the bigger guy and letting it slide. Shame on them for the attitude.

[Wolfie]

hate to add 'fuel to the fire' but...law states they must produce the paper works as proof...hearsay is no good!...........Wolfie

[Gary]

Dr. Sara's place...it is very likely they own the only privately held streambed rights in Western Canada. I am not sure if this has been settled in court yet but it is prudent to assume they do. The agreement at issue has been grandfathered and signed previous to the last century. The smart thing to do is not go there and be thankful this is the (unlike the U.S.) the only place in around here that this is happening. I haven't fished the stretch for a couple of decades. Don't look for problems. Don't go there without permission. That includes inside the highwater mark.

[SupremeLeader]

Dr. Sara's place...it is very likely they own the only privately held streambed rights in Western Canada. I am not sure if this has been settled in court yet but it is prudent to assume they do. The agreement at issue has been grandfathered and signed previous to the last century. The smart thing to do is not go there and be thankful this is the (unlike the U.S.) the only place in around here that this is happening. I haven't fished the stretch for a couple of decades. Don't look for problems. Don't go there without permission. That includes inside the highwater mark.

 

 

Actually they don'y own the water; there are only two places in Alberta were people own the river bottom. The first place is a small section of the Jumping Pound, the second is a section of Stauffer.

 

 

[Wolfie]

By the reads of this thread, the 'locals' know that the ppl involve own the riverbed rights and show their respect accordingly, why is it so hard then for others who perhaps are new to the area to also respect the signs..could it possibly be that by putting up barriers, man 'thinks' that inside that property there is litterly a 'gold mine' of fish, and no one owns fish that is in a river..there is a small creek that I fished in May, and was told by a local that it was fine to fishup stream, however, to drive a bit down stream from where I was to pass completely this one farmer's property...the owner, an older gentleman has had several of his cows either killed or lost cause of 'cut or torn down fences' in the last year or so by fishermen who show no respect to someone's property.And thus has caused a very bad taste in that man's mouth for all fishermen in general...do you blame him..I respect his loss and I for one will not cross that land cause there is plenty of fish up and down the river that will give me a good day.

 

..however..ignorant fools who mouth off, and try and play tough, usually wind up calming down and saying sorry to me, after they witness what my Wolf has to say to their loud voices... nice to have a companion that sticks up for you...and believe me..I have no qualms in letting her show her dislike to whomever.......................................Wolfie

[bigbowtrout]

Click here if the movie does not play.

[ShadyPines]

FYI, this link clears it up a bit, not always so obvious as to who owns things when dealing with land titles.

 

 

http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/lands/usingpublic...boundaries.aspx

[Tungsten]

Click here if the movie does not play.

Awesome,

[gizmofisher]

 

 

Yea Jumpingpound is the same. Had a farmer chase me and my wife with his shotgun off HIS creek. This is the section below hwy 1 for about 2-3km. I told this jackass farmer to shot me then if it makes him feel better. His reply was i would but dont want to go to jail.My wife then said you couldve been a little nicer about this and we would fish elsewere as no signs are posted anywhere about not fishing..He then rants off " another city bitch".I then lost it on this redneck. Talk to me like that fine, but why the remarks at the wife??? I could see if we were destroying the fences or what not but we were walking in the creek. We walked IN the creek to fish this section and parked along hwy1. No fishermen should be put in this situation. If i was on YOUR land and trying to steal something, buy all means protect it. If you find my fishing rod and hooks to be a threat, that people have to pull out guns, i hate to see the tank come out if i drove onto your land. Very sad.

[SupremeLeader]

Yea Jumpingpound is the same. Had a farmer chase me and my wife with his shotgun off HIS creek. This is the section below hwy 1 for about 2-3km. I told this jackass farmer to shot me then if it makes him feel better. His reply was i would but dont want to go to jail.My wife then said you couldve been a little nicer about this and we would fish elsewere as no signs are posted anywhere about not fishing..He then rants off " another city bitch".I then lost it on this redneck. Talk to me like that fine, but why the remarks at the wife??? I could see if we were destroying the fences or what not but we were walking in the creek. We walked IN the creek to fish this section and parked along hwy1. No fishermen should be put in this situation. If i was on YOUR land and trying to steal something, buy all means protect it. If you find my fishing rod and hooks to be a threat, that people have to pull out guns, i hate to see the tank come out if i drove onto your land. Very sad.

 

I have met a lot of great land owners who are generally pretty good about access, but their are a few who think they own the river, etc.

 

The worst part of encountering these individuals while fishing is that it really puts you off your day; none of us go to the river to argue.

 

That said, if they start making threats I have now made a point of reacting; I'm typically with a few people and these landowners would be foolish to do something.

 

If they ruin my day; I'll ruin theirs........

 

[bigbowtrout]

Life is way to freaking short to worry about this kinda crap. If a landowner goes that far out of his way to post signs or come down to the river with a gun then turn around and go fish somewhere else. If a gun is involved then call the Police after you leave, if it’s a sign issue and a pissing match about land and access rights then contact the powers that be and do some digging and find out the facts then go from there.

But really do we need someone to get shot or attacked by a Wolf just so you can fish a Km of stream? I really don’t think so.

 

[tro]

Fishing a creek last year, a intoxicated lady(35) approached me and my dad & stated this was her grandmothers land and we should leave. My dad let her know about the water rights and so we continued with the hole. She comes back 10 min later in a bathing suit and starts swimming the hole, kicking her legs all around while stating again this his their land. My dad keeps telling her if she gets a hook in the leg it ain't our fault.

So we give up the deep hole and move further down, she stops swimming and drives her van down to the creek and starts honking the horn non stop.

 

This lady was off her rocker and not the owner, but as long as you don't touch their property there should be no issue, it's kind of similar to people who are pissed because you parked infront of their house.

 

 

 

 

 

[Harps]

In 1903 the Calgary and Edmonton Land Company Ltd was granted the southern 2 quarter sections that the Sara's B&B is now on. (SW and NW of 17, Twp 7, Rng 2, W5M)

 

The south most of the 3 quarters was granted to Ferdinand S Roberge (He was there in 1901 but I can't find an image of the Land Grant). (SW of 20)

 

Unless the Sara's inherited both properties it is near impossible for them to own bed and bank of all three quarters. I'm not sure how a property could go from company to person and maintain the bed and bank rights, but it would likely have ocurred after Alberta was formed and unlikely that the province would have let that occur.

 

 

Gary,

If they do have Bed and Banks specifically on the title, I would love to see that!! I have never actually seen a land title with it, and only talked to one landowner who actually told me he has one (Land gifted from the queen to his great-whatever-grandfather for his service in the Boer war and NWMP- pre-Alberta, and maintained in the family). I won't mention where it is, cause I don't share my secret streams.

[SupremeLeader]

Fishing a creek last year, a intoxicated lady(35) approached me and my dad & stated this was her grandmothers land and we should leave. My dad let her know about the water rights and so we continued with the hole. She comes back 10 min later in a bathing suit and starts swimming the hole, kicking her legs all around while stating again this his their land. My dad keeps telling her if she gets a hook in the leg it ain't our fault.

So we give up the deep hole and move further down, she stops swimming and drives her van down to the creek and starts honking the horn non stop.

 

This lady was off her rocker and not the owner, but as long as you don't touch their property there should be no issue, it's kind of similar to people who are pissed because you parked infront of their house.

 

You should have harpooned that whale.

[SupremeLeader]

In 1903 the Calgary and Edmonton Land Company Ltd was granted the southern 2 quarter sections that the Sara's B&B is now on. (SW and NW of 17, Twp 7, Rng 2, W5M)

 

The south most of the 3 quarters was granted to Ferdinand S Roberge (He was there in 1901 but I can't find an image of the Land Grant). (SW of 20)

 

Unless the Sara's inherited both properties it is near impossible for them to own bed and bank of all three quarters. I'm not sure how a property could go from company to person and maintain the bed and bank rights, but it would likely have ocurred after Alberta was formed and unlikely that the province would have let that occur.

 

 

Gary,

If they do have Bed and Banks specifically on the title, I would love to see that!! I have never actually seen a land title with it, and only talked to one landowner who actually told me he has one (Land gifted from the queen to his great-whatever-grandfather for his service in the Boer war and NWMP- pre-Alberta, and maintained in the family). I won't mention where it is, cause I don't share my secret streams.

 

 

Nice one!

[Smitty]

I can understand Landowners getting frustrated, but pulling a gun on someone standing in the middle of a creek? That's way over the line, and the landowner should face charges, whether there was legitimate tresspassing or not.

 

Getting back to the original story (Dustin's), I here's my 2 cents towards landowners. This kind of mis-communication is just about 100% the landowners fault.

 

Why? Because I think this is about common sense and precedents. Its perfectly natural for anglers to assume they're ok if they're below a high water mark. The long time precedent has long been established about this kind of access. How the heck are anglers supposed to know about those tiny exceptions??

 

Lots of landowners have No Trespassing signs, but have no problems with anglers who obey they law, and access the water legally and stay below the high water mark. So think of it from an anglers point of view; a No Trespassing sign is nearly irrelevant, I don't care how big and bold the sign is. If I accessed the point of water legally as my starting point, and I have been below the high water mark the whole time fishing, I'd say almost all of us on this board would think we're fine, no matter what sign the landowner posted.

 

Now, if the landowner is one of those <1% exceptions in AB that actually does have rights to banks and streambed, then I think the onus is on him to to say so in a sign, with the proof right there (honestly! Its 2009! Is is so hard to get a laminated copy, stick it in a ziploc and show people by nailing it to the sign???).

 

There is no way a landowner with a generic "No Trespassing" sign should have the expectation that people will automatically know that they are in the tiny minority of owners that own the banks and streambed. If the Landowner is that anal or protective, then he should get off his butt and clearly communicate what he owns to the potential trespasser. Life's too short for to do a title search to find out which 3,4,5, or 10 people in AB actually own the streambed and banks. That's just stupid.

 

The point is that if a Landowner belongs to that tiny group, he has no excuse for complaining about trespassing when he's too lazy to get a specific, custom made sign explaining an otherwise pretty unique access situation and issue. I'd have no problem obeying a sign like, if the landowner clearly communicates.

 

Smitty

[SteveM]

I can understand Landowners getting frustrated, but pulling a gun on someone standing in the middle of a creek? That's way over the line, and the landowner should face charges, whether there was legitimate tresspassing or not.

 

Getting back to the original story (Dustin's), I here's my 2 cents towards landowners. This kind of mis-communication is just about 100% the landowners fault.

 

Why? Because I think this is about common sense and precedents. Its perfectly natural for anglers to assume they're ok if they're below a high water mark. The long time precedent has long been established about this kind of access. How the heck are anglers supposed to know about those tiny exceptions??

 

Lots of landowners have No Trespassing signs, but have no problems with anglers who obey they law, and access the water legally and stay below the high water mark. So think of it from an anglers point of view; a No Trespassing sign is nearly irrelevant, I don't care how big and bold the sign is. If I accessed the point of water legally as my starting point, and I have been below the high water mark the whole time fishing, I'd say almost all of us on this board would think we're fine, no matter what sign the landowner posted.

 

Now, if the landowner is one of those <1% exceptions in AB that actually does have rights to banks and streambed, then I think the onus is on him to to say so in a sign, with the proof right there (honestly! Its 2009! Is is so hard to get a laminated copy, stick it in a ziploc and show people by nailing it to the sign???).

 

There is no way a landowner with a generic "No Trespassing" sign should have the expectation that people will automatically know that they are in the tiny minority of owners that own the banks and streambed. If the Landowner is that anal or protective, then he should get off his butt and clearly communicate what he owns to the potential trespasser. Life's too short for to do a title search to find out which 3,4,5, or 10 people in AB actually own the streambed and banks. That's just stupid.

 

The point is that if a Landowner belongs to that tiny group, he has no excuse for complaining about trespassing when he's too lazy to get a specific, custom made sign explaining an otherwise pretty unique access situation and issue. I'd have no problem obeying a sign like, if the landowner clearly communicates.

 

Smitty

 

 

 

Well said, Smitty!