When's Enough, Enough?

[reddeerfrank]

me and a buddy fished a fabled cutty stream today and landed( in his opinion) about 100-120 fish. my question is do you pack it in after 10 fish.....30 fish.... 50 fish....? as a 10% mortality rate, how does the average flyfisherman deal with a good day? keep fishing?...let the fish be?...let me know....

frank

 

p.s. we fished all day..............left at 7pm.

 

regards

[Guest bigbadbrent]

fish till you don't feel like fishing any more, that's my view

 

and i really doubt you'll have killed 10-12 fish. Chances are you were catching a lot of fish, and landing them all within 10-15 seconds..

[Conor]

I had a day like that once and I ended up crimping the hook closed on my fly. If I moved a fish worth retying for, I did. Otherwise, it was still fun getting fish to rise to the fly.

 

If fish are handled properly, a 0-3% mortality is more accurate.

[Grizz]

"When they pry the [rod] from my cold, dead hand...."

[Hawgstoppah]

I'd leave when it was too dark to see my dry anymore, and I had exhausted my streamer box too!

 

If the mort rate was even 3% on our C+R cutt streams, places like the Livingstone, Racehorse, and Oldman would have NO fish... I am sure it's under 1%...

[bloom]

Sorry, but I'm a believer in the mortality being higher than most think. I'll see if I can find one of the studies floating out there. Just because a fish swims away doesn't mean it survives.

 

That being said though, this is a blood sport, but you do what you can to limit your impact when you handle fish. Fish as long as you want!

[flyangler]

There's some ancient song lyric about reaching an "acceptable level of ecstasy" that applies for me. Much depends on when we last got to fish, how much effort it took to get to the spot and so forth.

 

There's a place we fished on the dark side of the AB/BC border that we had to be sure we stopped fishing in time to climb back out of the canyon before either lightning or nightfall closed the day. That was a tough one to call because it seemed like there were big fish everywhere and I was a couple of hooksets short of my favorite fishing buddy!

 

Congratulations on a good day's fishing. I'll bet you had permagrin for a while!

[SteveM]

If the fish are biting, I can't stop- too much fun, & the next one might be a hawg.

If the fish aren't biting, I can't stop- might miss the one & only fish of the day.

I just try for a good release on every fish.

[Conor]

Mortality might be a bit different in lakes, Bloom. A study on the bow angled fish and released them into pens with proper C&R technique. It was a good study (sample size and power of test were adequate) and, if I remember correctly, results were not significantly different from 0% or 1%. Something very low anyway.

 

That said, I have a hunch that cuttys are more susceptible to mortality. It seems like they loose their equilibrium more easily than other trouts.

[bigbowtrout]

If you have to ask if enough is enough? then its enough

[DonAndersen]

Frank,

 

Often wondered that myself. When is enough enough. Had a day much like you last week with + 50 landed. I wondered what I proved after 10 or so. Just reinforced that cutthroats are dumb!!

 

catch ya'

 

Don

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Frank,

 

Often wondered that myself. When is enough enough. Had a day much like you last week with + 50 landed. I wondered what I proved after 10 or so. Just reinforced that cutthroats are dumb!!

 

catch ya'

 

Don

 

 

or just hungry...

[Hawgstoppah]

I think that by basic math we can determine that C+R works.

 

Would you all agree with me that about 1000 catchable trout per mile of the livingstone would be reasonable (if not a very high) estimate of the population?? ok.... Now on that mile on any given day are approx 15 anglers, each catching 10 fish (approx) each... that's 150 fish / day. Let's suppose now that over a season (120 days).... that we have now landed 18,000 trout...

 

18,000 trout at a 5% mort rate = 900 fish dead in one season from this run leaving 100?? nawwww

18,000 trout at a 4% mort rate = 720 fish dead... leaving 280... maybe... but I think it's a lot lower.

18,000 trout at a 3% mort rate = 540 fish dead.. leaving 460... this is a lot more possible, actually..

 

but again... I think I am dramatically overestimating catchable fish... and underestimating creel reports for each day.

 

So here's how I really see it, having been on this river for the last 7 years about 3 times / week.

 

I would guess that there actually are about between 500-750 catchable trout / mile. So let's say 625. I know that myself and many others on it would land at least 30 each / day... sometimes many, many more but let's say 30. So lets take that same amount of anglers (It's common to see 15 people on a mile of this river, or have 15 groups fish through this mile section, each day). Let's say that the avg catch is 20 fish (the experienced are getting 30 and the rookies avg 10, so lets average that right out at 20).

 

so 15 anglers, 20 fish / day = 300 fish per day. Or approx 36000 fish / year.

 

So on my assumption that there's about 625 fish / mile (catchable sized)

 

36000 fish at 5% = 1800 fish.... so all our fish in our mile are dead for sure.

36000 fish at 4% = 1440 fish.... still all our fish this mile are dead

36000 fish at 3% = 1080 fish...

36000 fish at 2% = 720 fish... still too much.

36000 fish at 1% = 360 fish , leaving 265. Very possible... but I doubt it. That's killing every fish in this section in 2 years. There's a lot of fish kicking around that would suggest otherwise (beat up lipless 18 inchers, etc)

 

Now I won't argue with mortality rates on a warm lake, I bet out of 100 bullshead fish caught , 5 die... I wont argue that. What I do have to argue, though, is people thinking that cold clear oxygenated mountain streams like the livingstone have high mortality rates. They simply do not, or they would contain no fish... even with the C&R regulations..

[Grizz]

I'm with Hawg on this one.

 

Most of these studies whether you agree with it or not do not take into account the fact that a gentle release does little long term harm to the fish.

They assume the same handling techniques, on studies I've seen, as bait induced mortality studies. Handling vs. hook removal are really two different things. Yes the bait caught fish has a higher mortality, however, it certainly wouldn't if you could surgically remove the bait hook from it's gullet in under 30 seconds would it? Even then, you're hook has penetrated nearer to the vitals than a fly usually does - big difference!

 

Now I don't know about the rest of you guys on the board, but unless I have to, I rarely even touch the fish. Grab the hook, turn it upside down, use the weight of the fish and it's gone. Further, if I have to take them out I handle them very gently with a wet net around the fish, etc. etc.

 

Do you think this handling of fish differs from 90% of the bait fishermen out there? Handling is half the mortality rate. Part of fly fishing is about proper release technique. Geez even beaching a large fish and twisting a fly out of it's lip does far less damage than prying out a bait hook from near or past it's gills. Size of hook as well, etc. This is rarely taken into account in mortality rates and estimates. Remember, in Alberta "Excellent Fishing" was rated by our govt. as the ability to catch fish at a rate of 1 fish (of any size) per hour! How do you think these mortality rates are being calculated and what assumptions are being made? Also, locally, this is an example of a govt. that is JUST starting to realize that dumping a gazillion fish into a pond to increase catch rate rather than a few that will grow to a decent size is just not as popular as they thought!

 

1% might even be a bit high for fly fishing. As was mentioned, in the gin-clear mountain waters, after fishing a pool, or lake for consecutive days and not seeing a bunch of white bellies lined up on the bottom of the water body - where are the dead fish? They either float up dead, or sink dead. Either way they are visible in many of the lakes I've fished day in day out. If these fish were dying in numbers, after a few hundred fish there should at least be a handful of fish you'd notice.

 

Instead, a couple of dead fish seems to be a reason to post a thread on this board asking "what is going on here?" and we run around worrying about how many fish we've killed after a double digit day.

 

I'm confident I do miniscule amounts of damage on the waters I fish, I'm confident that the majority of experienced folk on this board do the same. If you guys want to quit because you're afraid to sting a few more fish - fine by me I'll be right behind you landing the ones you leave!

 

Now, super hot weather - different story altogether! I wouldn't step into the boxing ring with a guy who has asthma....why would I fish if there's a risk of heat stress? For that matter why would I be out fishing in near 40 degree heat anyway!

[Hawgstoppah]

Now, super hot weather - different story altogether! I wouldn't step into the boxing ring with a guy who has asthma....why would I fish if there's a risk of heat stress? For that matter why would I be out fishing in near 40 degree heat anyway!

 

LOL... yeah. Remember 2003 when all the guide boats kept floating down a 70 F bow river in the middle of the afternoon, yet the same fellows had the nerve to say the rest of us were hurting fish when fishing for them at specific spots in April? *sigh*

 

We should make a board code of conduct... for all members to read and abide by. I'll bet there are people who drop in who do NOT know how much room to give someone, or wether or not it's polite to go ask someone which way there going etc.

[toolman]

Here are the "Alberta Angling Ethic" guidelines, from the Alberta Guide to Sportfishing Regulations 2007

...go to, "Management Messages" and then "Alberta Angling Ethic"

 

http://www.albertaoutdoorsmen.ca/fishingregs/index.html

[Pipestoneflyguy]

I've been hitting one of my fav lakes all last week, once I get 10 to 20 fish I like to experiment a little, for example if I was successful with a traditional EHC, I'll try a collar hackled EHC instead and see how the fish react to it, I'll also try different sizes to see their impact on effectiveness. If time and light permits I'll also try similar flies such as goddards or experimental flies (like split hairwing EHC's) to just see what happens - I view times like that as an opportunity to learn a little in somewhat of a controlled environment (you can answer questions like "does a fine gold ribbing actually improve the attractiveness of an EHC or is its only role is to keep the body hackle from breaking ?, does EHC body colour actually have any real impact, what works better, a skinny body or a fat one... etc etc) - The lake I am talking about is O2 rich and cold so the fish are strong and healthy (I am getting tons of huge jumps from the rainbows) and over the last two weeks I haven't spotted a single dead fish, I would honestly be surprised if there was any mortally injured fish based on my observations but maybe I'm not looking for the right signs ????

 

Hog that is some interesting math, real food for thought,.. and it makes sense. I agree that landing and handling are by far the most impacting factors. I like your idea of a code of conduct on the board - seems to be tidbits of conduct stuff in regs, magazines, books etc etc but something specific to this area would be usefull, especially to guys like me that rarely fish near others, as I explore and move into more of these popular areas I find just asking what is appropriate offends some people - not sure on some other stuff too. like how close is too close when I am on my pontoon and and guys are fishing from shore, given we are all targetting the same drop off areas.

[Grizz]

Great IDEA!!!!!

 

Just create a sticky post on fly fishing ethics and such. How to behave yourself, how to release fish with the least amount of harm, etc. Call it a "MUST READ" thread.

 

Heck how about a page where before you can register, you have to read and check a code of conduct? Check box by each paragraph though otherwise you just tend to check and hit enter.... Sorry Dave, that's really too much damn work and a dumb suggestion to put on you. How bout just a sticky thread?