Long Line Indicator Nymphing

[chiasson]

 

Yet another post in my continuing series of posts on indicator nymphing. Please forgive me.

 

To start, I'm doing well. I'm getting into fish farily regularly and am confident with most of my game. However, I've recently realized that I'm missing a considerable number of strikes which I beleive is due to poor stricke detection. For example, I hooked a nice fish the other night completely by accident. I wasn't completely happy with my drift and was picking up to recast and had a fish on. I've had similar things happen few times actually. Considering this I imagine that I'm missing a considerable number of hits in the run of a day on the water. While I do realize that this is part of the game we play, at the same time I know I could be hooking into more.

 

I'm sure this topic has been discussed at length before but I thought I would bring it up it it's own thread, that being what are some indicator placement and strike detection strategies for long line nymphing. I'd be curious to discuss things such as what approach is optimal in regards to changing indicator to top fly depth while working a piece of water. As well, another thing that has gotten me wondering is if I'm missing strikes because I may be drifitng too fast. I generally try to drift with, or slightly slower than, the speed of the current with my indicator upstream of my rig. However, I am wondering if I should maybe mend more upstream to slow my drift down a bit and that that might allow for easier strike detection.

 

I've been trying a lot of these things out but am hoping to shorten the learning curve as well as help others out who may be having the same problems by bring this up here.

 

C.

 

[hydropsyche]

Not much to offer other then the obvious.

 

If you are finding fish on the end of your line that you didn't expect, then the fly to indie length is too long. 12 feet of leader in 3 feet of water (mended upstream) could give your fish 16 feet of undetected strike (12 - 3 = 8 feet in front of the fish to 8 feet behind it).

[Hawgstoppah]

I rarely use more thyan about 7ft to first fly then 1ft to next. If it aint tapping bottom I add weight rather than add leader. The longer the leader the more resistance it has in the water IMHO.

 

I can get deeper with 5ft of leader and 2 tiny beadhead nymphs than most people could with weighted nymphs and a 12ft leader. It's all about drag free drifting to get deep, not leader length, per se.

[BRH]

... I generally try to drift with, or slightly slower than, the speed of the current with my indicator upstream of my rig. However, I am wondering if I should maybe mend more upstream to slow my drift down a bit and that that might allow for easier strike detection.

 

Chaisson ... consider this. When a fish is in his lie he is facing upstream, into the current. As a morsel of food floats by his position he moves out from his lie and takes the nymph and returns to his lie. If he is feeding heavily, he may not have a specific lie but just return to the stream bottom to wait for the next nymph to float by. His movement is generally very lazy as he moves to take the nymph. For the most part he doesn't lose stream position in the take. He may move laterally and to a different water column to take the nymph but most often he won't lose ground to the current. (This is just a general rule of thumb. I have seen fish watch the nymph float by then turn and take it on a downstream run.)

 

Now consider your fishing technique. If as you say in your post (quoted above), you have your strike indicator drifting upstream of your flies, when a fish takes your nymph all he's going to do is create slack in your leader. Let's look at this in detail. Your flies are floating along in a dead drift and your indicator is floating along in a dead drift upstream of your flies. The fish sees your nymph and moves laterally to take it. Since your flies are already pretty well right on the bottom, as he takes your nymph the fish either just rests there or moves back to his lie. So now the fish has the fly in his mouth (for about 2 or 3 seconds) and your strike indicator still hasn't moved because all that has happened is that the fish has stopped the dead drift movement of the flies but the strike indicator is still upstream of the fish continuing its dead drift float. So as the strike indicator floats down with the current in a dead drift with the flies stopped in the fish's mouth, all that's occurring is that slack is being created in the leader between the indicator and flies. As he creates that slack you will see absolutely no indication on your indicator of the strike. I may not have explained this very well but is it very easy to simulate on the river.

 

Consider also that there are a wide variety of current and turbulence variations between what you see your indicator doing and what the flies on bottom of the stream bed are doing. If, as you say, your indicator is upstream of your flies, it is conceivable that there is a considerable amount of slack in your leader between the flies and your strike indicator. In this case, when the fish takes your nymph, the flies stop their dead drift. As the indicator passes the fish's position the slack between your strike indicator and the flies starts being taken up. Eventually, all the slack will be taken up and the leader between your fly (in the fish's mouth) will become tight as the stike indicator floats far enough by the fish's position in the current doing its dead drift thing. When the indicator has floated far enough downstream of the fish, because the fish stopped the flies from drifting, the indicator will show the strike. The trouble with this entire scenario is that the fish isn't likely to hang on to your nymph for that long ... you missed the strike. Your indicator and flies will continue on their merry dead drift as though nothing had happened.

 

In contrast to what you say you're doing, indicator upstream of the flies, next time out try reversing that technique. Always ensure the flies are upstream of the indicator. Still do your dead drift thing if you want to but do your best to keep the flies upstream of the indicator. As your weight fly (SJW) taps along the bottom, it will keep the leader between it and the indicator taught. When a fish takes one of your nymphs and essentially stops it from its dead drift, you will immediately see the strike on your indicator. This is the theory although the variety of currents and turbulences on the stream bottom don't always follow theory.

[reevesr1]

Psuedo nailed it, at least in my mind. You actually don't have much working in your favor when nymph fishing. But one thing that does help is the fact that the water along the bottom is moving a bit slower than the water at surface due to friction. So your indi will tend to "lead" your flies---assuming they are on bottom. So the game to me is having enough weight to get down but no so much that you are drifting unnaturally slow or hanging bottom. Also, length of leader (ala Hawgstoppah) plays a big role as well. Not just in how fast you sink, but also in how much slack is in the system. If the leader is too long, you can think of the line between your fly and indi as a stretched out parabola (ok math geeks I know this isn't technically correct, but close enough). And when the fish hits as Psuedo described, there will still be a lag between strike and indication of strike. I find this more important in slow water because the lag can be so long that you don't see the strike at all. In fast water, the length does not delay the strike as much because of the speed, but the length can delay the flies getting to bottom due to buoyancy.

 

Confusing enough?

[rusty]

If you want a fresh take on nymphing that will really make you think and catch more fish, go out and pick up "Active Nymphing" by Rich Osthoff. It has become one of my favorite books to read, and a lot of his techniques are very applicable to the Bow. Rich is a real "impressionist" nympher, but his rigging, casting, and fishing techniques will combine well with any set of fly patterns.

 

Check it out.

[BRH]

... Also, length of leader (ala Hawgstoppah) plays a big role as well. Not just in how fast you sink, but also in how much slack is in the system. If the leader is too long, you can think of the line between your fly and indi as a stretched out parabola. ... there will still be a lag between strike and indication of strike. I find this more important in slow water because the lag can be so long that you don't see the strike at all. In fast water, the length does not delay the strike as much because of the speed, but the length can delay the flies getting to bottom due to buoyancy.

 

rickr ... I tend to disagree with you. Leader length is, in my opinion, given far to much attention and highly overrated. Whether a fly fisher uses 7 feet of leader or 10 feet of leader is a matter of personal preference based mainly on his own individual fishing experience and technique. A fly fisher using 7 feet of leader isn't going to catch more fish than another person using 10 feet of leader solely on the length of leader being used. Certainly you have to use enough leader to get the flies into the water column where the fish are but beyond that, leader length is only a means of getting the flies where you want them. Nymph presentation, type, size, and shape and fishing technique are far, far more important than the length of leader used. Many people talk about changing leader length when they move to skinnier water or slower water. Peronsally, I hate continually changing leader length. I far prefer to just set it at the start of the day and adjust my fishing techinque to match the water I'm fishing. Does that mean I catch fewer fish than someone who adjusts their leader length? Maybe ... but if there is such a person, he's not catching more than me because he's adjusting his leader length.

[maxwell]

check out some of the other discussions on indicator fishing dude.. strike on any twitch stall bump bob or pause.. more fish strike more subtle than we can even imagine and all i look for in teh drift is a reason too strike.. wether it be a few feet or 20 feet into the drift once the indi does something i strike.... u gotta be on top of it.. look at is like this.. if u only strike 1 out of every 10 drifts bestcase u will hook 1 fish in every 10 drifts if u strik 9 out of 10 u will have a much better chance at hooking more fish because your giving yourself more opportunities too hook up..

[SilverDoctor]

Pseudonym has some good points on indicator and fly position. Max has really hit it when he said look for a reason to strike. I always look for the slightest change in line position or indicator speed to strike, sometimes 10 times during a drift. You get so you try for almost a sixth sends in striking.

[Hawgstoppah]

all I was trying to say on my post was that sometimes with a long leader you THINK your going to get deeper, but in reality your almost losing contact with your quarry.

 

It has to be just the right mix of weight + length for the depth your fishing. Most runs on the Bow dont require 9-11ft of line, you'll be losing contact. The fish sit in 4 to 6ft of riffle water when there hard on the feed. Beef up the size of that indi, beef up your weight a bit, and shorten that leader a bit and get back in touch with 'em. If your missing takes becuase your not detecting fish, the most common assumption would be that your leader is too long.

 

cheers

[BRH]

... the most common assumption would be that your leader is too long.

 

Hawg ... Most common assumption to whom? That certainly wouldn't be my first assumption.

 

... Most runs on the Bow dont require 9-11ft of line, you'll be losing contact. ...

 

I beg to differ. Just because I'm using 12 feet of leader doesn't mean I'm losing touch. The craft of staying in touch is dependent on your technique. To make this generalized statement to a neophyte is misleading.

 

... The fish sit in 4 to 6ft of riffle water when there hard on the feed ...

 

Again I beg to differ. Feeding fish in the river could be in water as shallow as a foot to anything down to eight feet deep or more depending on what they're eating. Again, to the neophyte you are making misleading statements. Fish taking emergers on the surface sit in a very shallow water column. Fish taking stone larvae may be sitting in a very deep water column. If all you're doing is targeting riffle water in the 4 to 6 foot range, you're fishing for a small fraction of the fish in the river.

 

[Hawgstoppah]

Im giving general statements so someone new would have the best idea to start with. If you want to fish different depths, change depths of line. Simple as that. Dunoo why you seem to be attacking me this thread, everyone's gonna fish different no matter what. those who've seen me fish the Bow would say that I do rather well. I'm sharing how to do that...Nuff said.

[Brad29]

Pseudonym, you had alot of good points in your original post, but you didn't comment on leader length. With the 1000's of trout that Hawgstoppah has caught over the years and the fact that he was and is now a guide I believe he has a valid point and the proof to back it up. If you a fishing a shallow riffle of about 2' in depth with a 12' leader the lag time and slack line between your indie and flies would be huge, it just makes sense.

[reevesr1]

Pseudo,

Ok if you disagree. I fish with several guys who do not adjust their leader length, and they do very well. What I've read on the subject leads me to believe leader length is critically important in controlling the amount of slack and decreasing the amount of time to see the take. I know for certain that when I shallow up in slow shallow water, I catch more fish. I also do much better in small water when fishing shallow. I personally have a hard time seeing how leader length does not matter. You disagree. Cool. That's why this is fun.

[BRH]

... With the 1000's of trout that Hawgstoppah has caught over the years and the fact that he was and is now a guide I believe he has a valid point and the proof to back it up. If you a fishing a shallow riffle of about 2' in depth with a 12' leader the lag time and slack line between your indie and flies would be huge, it just makes sense.

 

Hawg and Max are two of about 84 guides who guide regularly on the Bow River. How many times have you watched the activities going on in the drift boats that float by you on the river? How many times have you seen them stop with every change in water depth to adjust the length of their leader? How many times have you seen/heard them tell their clients to take their flies out of the water because the water was too skinny? Seldom if ever. Do they catch fish? Of course they do. They catch lots of fish, some boats more than others. So how is it that those guys in the boats can catch fish in 2 feet of water in one stretch and then catch fish in 8 feet of water in the next stretch without adjusting their leader length? Are the guides magical with special powers? Do their clients catch fish only by accident?

 

How many times have you seen a drift boat pull over at the bottom of a run and both fishers hop out and head back up to fish the run and stop to have their guide adjust their leader length? Precious few times would be my guess. Do they catch fish? Of course they do. How can they possibly be doing this with without adjusting their leader length?

 

These guides are not magicians, they are simply very accomplished fly fishermen who know the river and trout intimately, have the ability to teach fly casting in minutes and have an uncanny ability to impart to their clients the techniques that must be employed to catch fish on the river. Do they have secrets? You bet, everyone of them has their own way of doing things. None of them are unconditionally right nor are any of them wrong. The difference may be slight or significant. Do each of their methods produce fish? You bet. Their job depends on it.

 

Guides on the river see a wide spectrum of abilities in the fishers they pilot down the river. They see everything from the fisher who is holding a fly rod in their hands for the first time to the exceedingly accomplished fly fisher and everything in between. As the drift boat floats down the river the depth of water changes constantly. The idea of drifting the river is to fish not contantly be adjusting leader length thereby floating by fishable water. So how on earth do these guides manage to get their fishers into fish ... both the complete novice as well as the experienced caster without adjusting their leader length? Is the guide loading up the novice with a "beefed up" indicator and heavliy weighed flies? Not likely. Most first time fly fishers have enough trouble with a light weight unit let alone a beefed up unit. Is the accomplished fly fisher so familiar with the river that he just knows what to do to catch fish? Not from my experience.

 

There are many, many different methods, setups, approaches to fishing the Bow. None of them are absolute. Choose whatever method you want ... it's entirely up to you. But there are other methods, very successful methods. The guides floating by in the drift boats have their clients using them every day.

[dutchie]

{I generally try to drift with, or slightly slower than, the speed of the current with my indicator upstream of my rig.}

 

i think that just about says it all , in almost all cases , your indi should be floating down river first befor your bugs , sorta like draging them ,

 

i'm for one that never changes my leader during the day , i start off with a 9 ft , first fly , and 12 to 15 inches and second fly , and another 12 inches , a big heavy bug or splitshot

 

i like to leave my indi very close to my flyline , if i do anything during the day if i need change up something , i'll add or remove splitshot , for the speed of the water , way way faster to add or remove a split shot then cutting or adding some leader

 

7ft , 9 ft , 12 ft, it only changes the angle the line is in the water from your indi to the bottom bug , yet when you change the angle you change the height your bugs are floating down near the bottom ,

 

whatever works or tickles your fancy , i had a guy last year who used a 15 leader when nymphing , he was deadly , it is whatever suits your style , i don't like mine long or short , just in the middle , i can control it alot better then a long line , way easy to pick up and cast back up stream

 

i think the whole topic here is what might help this guy from what he posted , i'm pretty sure if he's nymphing like he stated , it's a wonder he's catching fish at all , they suck the nymph in and spit it out the side of the mouth within a couple seconds , you can never be fast enough ,

 

as the day gets longer , you'll find yourself not in the mindset 100% of the time , cost ya some fish , or when you start to get a little tucker'd out and again your not 100% on the game , pull the trigger on everything that just don't look correct , and even better , hit em hard , i'v lost more fish by being a candy ass on the hook set then anything , them little hooks can stand it

[Hawgstoppah]

Comparing methods used from the boat and from wading is like comparing apples to oranges though. you simply do not have the time to break down the whole river, so you fish with a system that does (longer leader, almost draging flies, splits at bottom, whatever works for you).

 

If your wading the river, why not take the time to systematically fish it by varying your leader length? Start by working the water in close... I dont know how many times I catch fish in water people usually step into to cast to that big "seam" out there... in almost every spot I fish. then once that's been covered add 2ft, go a tad deeper, then maybe once that's covered, go all in add some more length and weight, and go deep and long. That's how you can catch more fish from one run than all these drifters think is possible

 

I think the original poster was speaking from a wading and fishing perspective. If not than I am completely off base... as if your drifting you actually want to use a longer leader and I could go into a few other things - but they've been sorta covered already. He brings up rookies and adding weight to their rigs....Rookies in the boat are one thing, rookies from shore are another. They SHOULD be in a boat, if they only want fish. It's simply easier to be successfull from a boat if your a newbie to the bow. If your fishing the bow from shore and want those productive days you simply have to fish it certain ways. No exceptions unless the fish are in a good mood and are tucked into shore for you eating a hatch, or emergers.

[northfork]

Chaisson ... consider this. When a fish is in his lie he is facing upstream, into the current. As a morsel of food floats by his position he moves out from his lie and takes the nymph and returns to his lie. If he is feeding heavily, he may not have a specific lie but just return to the stream bottom to wait for the next nymph to float by. His movement is generally very lazy as he moves to take the nymph. For the most part he doesn't lose stream position in the take. He may move laterally and to a different water column to take the nymph but most often he won't lose ground to the current. (This is just a general rule of thumb. I have seen fish watch the nymph float by then turn and take it on a downstream run.)

 

Now consider your fishing technique. If as you say in your post (quoted above), you have your strike indicator drifting upstream of your flies, when a fish takes your nymph all he's going to do is create slack in your leader. Let's look at this in detail. Your flies are floating along in a dead drift and your indicator is floating along in a dead drift upstream of your flies. The fish sees your nymph and moves laterally to take it. Since your flies are already pretty well right on the bottom, as he takes your nymph the fish either just rests there or moves back to his lie. So now the fish has the fly in his mouth (for about 2 or 3 seconds) and your strike indicator still hasn't moved because all that has happened is that the fish has stopped the dead drift movement of the flies but the strike indicator is still upstream of the fish continuing its dead drift float. So as the strike indicator floats down with the current in a dead drift with the flies stopped in the fish's mouth, all that's occurring is that slack is being created in the leader between the indicator and flies. As he creates that slack you will see absolutely no indication on your indicator of the strike. I may not have explained this very well but is it very easy to simulate on the river.

 

Consider also that there are a wide variety of current and turbulence variations between what you see your indicator doing and what the flies on bottom of the stream bed are doing. If, as you say, your indicator is upstream of your flies, it is conceivable that there is a considerable amount of slack in your leader between the flies and your strike indicator. In this case, when the fish takes your nymph, the flies stop their dead drift. As the indicator passes the fish's position the slack between your strike indicator and the flies starts being taken up. Eventually, all the slack will be taken up and the leader between your fly (in the fish's mouth) will become tight as the stike indicator floats far enough by the fish's position in the current doing its dead drift thing. When the indicator has floated far enough downstream of the fish, because the fish stopped the flies from drifting, the indicator will show the strike. The trouble with this entire scenario is that the fish isn't likely to hang on to your nymph for that long ... you missed the strike. Your indicator and flies will continue on their merry dead drift as though nothing had happened.

 

In contrast to what you say you're doing, indicator upstream of the flies, next time out try reversing that technique. Always ensure the flies are upstream of the indicator. Still do your dead drift thing if you want to but do your best to keep the flies upstream of the indicator. As your weight fly (SJW) taps along the bottom, it will keep the leader between it and the indicator taught. When a fish takes one of your nymphs and essentially stops it from its dead drift, you will immediately see the strike on your indicator. This is the theory although the variety of currents and turbulences on the stream bottom don't always follow theory.

 

You absolutely drilled it. So in simpler terms, shorter leader.

 

[Keith]

I rarely use more thyan about 7ft to first fly then 1ft to next. If it aint tapping bottom I add weight rather than add leader. The longer the leader the more resistance it has in the water IMHO.

 

I can get deeper with 5ft of leader and 2 tiny beadhead nymphs than most people could with weighted nymphs and a 12ft leader. It's all about drag free drifting to get deep, not leader length, per se.

 

Hawgstoppah,

 

How much weight would you usually be using in a setup like this?

[Hawgstoppah]

Hawgstoppah,

 

How much weight would you usually be using in a setup like this?

 

well I fished a 6ft deep fast chop last week with great success, with a #4 wire sjw, at 7ft from the indicator (or maybe a touch less, like 6ft), then one more foot, and a weighted stonefly nymph, and no split shot at all. Had I been missing tapping bottom I would have added a split or two (BB size) until I was tapping on every drift.

 

 

 

I think what both me and psuedo are getting at (in different ways) is that your leader needs to be tight to detect strikes. I do it by suspending my flies just slightly deeper or even right at the exact depth of the area I am fishing, and varying length often as I change locations or even work through a run. He does it by using a longer leader and dragging flies a bit, which in turn saves you from chaging your setup all the time.

 

Now I've never seen Psuedo fish, but from my own experience, when my flies are dragging the fish know it. Ever had a queitly sipping bow river fish take a dragging dry fly? I sure haven't. I assume the same happens down below. Unless your fishing emergers and then it's wise to let flies swing at the end of each drift, and as they come up off the bottom you will get fish chasing and hitting them (with no loose line problem, becuase your taking them on the swing).

 

anyways, good luck out there.

 

maybe it would help us if you explain how your setting up your drift with "indicator upstream of flies". I mend my indicator upstream of my flies initially, but physics dictates that the force of motion as my flies sink and my indicator starts moving downstream, that by the time my flies are in the zone their directly below and either suspended or nearly so, by my indicator.

 

 

[PAV]

Going back to your original post chiasson. Could it be that your technique is fine and your just picking up fish at the end of your drift

because as you flies rise the fish think it's an emerging nymph. It's unlikely that the fish were on your line for more then a few seconds

or the would have spit it so they could be just hitting it on the rise. Happens to me all the time.

[gokaroach]

I always strike at the end of my drifts aswell and it is not uncommon to have fish on. I make it a habbit to strike before I recast.

[reevesr1]

As I continue to beat the dead horse.......

 

In my humble opinion, there is a misconception about the line being "straight" from the flies to the indi. Maybe castuserraticus can comment on this, but the vertical currents in the river are NOT uniform, nor is your fly and indicator always in the same current seam. So much like your fly line on top of the river drifting at different speeds and causing slack and drag, so can your leader. In the simplest case, which is slower water on bottom, faster on top, your leader will be in an arc. In my mind, you can think of it as somewhat like a sail. The effect of too much leader is the arc of the sail is greater. When a fish hits, the arc will immediately start to straighten (and the indi will start to slow) and eventually stop. If you have ninja like reflexes, you will notice the slowing immediately and set. If you don't notice the slowing, you may miss the strike entirely. However, if your leader were shorter, you would see the slowing and stopping sooner and have a better chance of catching the fish.

 

I was fishing with a guide down south last year. He told me a story of being out with a friend fishing below a cliff. The guide had climbed the cliff to look at the water upstream. He looked down and could see the fish his buddy was drifting over. He watched several takes (he could see the fish move on the flies) and asked his friend "why aren't you striking?" "Striking at what?" So the guide watched the indi when he saw a take and the indi did not even bobble before the fish spit. The initial fix was to tell his friend when to strike. The real fix? He shortened his leader length to one more appropriate to the depth they were fishing. Problem solved. When I fish with this particular guide on small waters, his indi to top fly is never longer than 3 to 4 ft.

 

Leader length is not the be all end all. It is also not the most important piece of the puzzle. Those would be fishing where fish are likely to be, presentation, drag free drifts, and fly selection among others. If you are in a boat, I agree that it would be counter productive to change leader length based on exactly where your boat is at any one moment. But if you are walking and fishing a run systematically, to say leader length does not matter is just not correct. Can you catch fish with it too long? Of course you can. But you'll catch more if you have it the right length.

[Crogg]

I went out with Hawgstoppah a couple of weeks ago and I used his nymphing set up (a little shorter than mine). Seemed to work well! Also learned to fish aggressively! Bow river hook sets! Dutchie nailed it. No candy ass hooksets. Since then my landing % has improved. Oh ya, I also landed a nice brown that day! Check it out if you like!

http://www.bowriveradventures.com/bowriver/id13.html

 

 

[chiasson]

maybe it would help us if you explain how your setting up your drift with "indicator upstream of flies". I mend my indicator upstream of my flies initially, but physics dictates that the force of motion as my flies sink and my indicator starts moving downstream, that by the time my flies are in the zone their directly below and either suspended or nearly so, by my indicator.

 

Thanks to everyone for all the input. A ton of great insight and invaluable tips. A lot of people will benefit no doubt.

 

Hawg, this is how I approach it as well. Depending on how far out I'm fishing I either mend line or roll cast to get my indicator upstream, I then mend accordingly. I've always thought that this would give me a longer drag free drift.

 

As explained by someone else:

 

"Without getting the indicator upstream of the nymph, the indicator, floating in that high velocity water at the surface, will pull the nymph along and not give it an opportunity to sink. As soon as the indicator hits the water make a quick mend to move the indicator upstream of where the nymph landed in the water. This gives the nymph a few seconds to start to sink before being pulled along by the indicator. As the indicator starts to overtake the nymph, make a second upstream mend of the indicator. (borrowed from http://streamsideadventures.com/tips-and-t...ics.html)"

 

Therefore, wouldn't drifting the indy downstream of your flies, drag?

 

I'm thinking the issues I'm having are likely due to a combination of things, of which are slowly coming together for me. The big thing I think still is the leader length. Have also been thinking of trying to rig my lower nymphs on dropper tags to eliminate slack between them and the indy. Also thinking of trying a straight mono leader to get down quicker, I've been using a tapered butt section for the last while. Lots of stuff to play with.

 

Thanks again,

I'll keep yall posted.