Tungsten Posted February 15, 2009 Posted February 15, 2009 No you don't there is nothing currently on law stating you need a PAL to own air guns, some segments of the airsoft community have been pushing for it though. I thought any air gun that went over 495 feet per second required a PAL.But i have bin wrong before. Quote
SilverDoctor Posted February 15, 2009 Posted February 15, 2009 I thought any air gun that went over 495 feet per second required a PAL.But i have bin wrong before. Anythiong over 500 fps is considered a pistol and needs a pal. I have some old Crossman air guns that creep into that area. Quote
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 fps is not the only deciding factor, a lead copper head BB bill do 1000% more damage then a 0.20g bb going to same speed. If you need a pall then i have broken the law for 5 years.....nope, no pall needed. I have owned everyting from M24 sniper rifles, MP5, M16, M4, M249, AK-74 with GP-25 grenade launchers, Steyer Aug, revolvers, and 2 semi auto pistols.....I was a gun whore.... Quote
Nick0Danger Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 Good pals with the 007airsoft guy, and that is what i was told in the last couple of years they implemented that rule. If you check his site he wont sell all metals to anyone but movies, police and military. Not to say i don't have a g3 and a m9, that is all metal, with upgraded motors that will make .2 fly. Quote
Jayhad Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 Good pals with the 007airsoft guy, and that is what i was told in the last couple of years they implemented that rule. If you check his site he wont sell all metals to anyone but movies, police and military. Not to say i don't have a g3 and a m9, that is all metal, with upgraded motors that will make .2 fly. Ya I have known Ken Chueng for 4 years and NEVER has he sold airsoft requiring a PAL... You don't need a PAL to purchase I can argue this until I am blue in the face but you can choose not to agree and that's cool with me. 007's stance on not selling full black guns has nothing to do with PAL it has to do with CBSA's approach that these toys are replicas and therefore restricted to sale. This is info from AirsoftCanada's legal team and Govt. sorces enjoy the read Questions and Answers: The Current Status of Airsoft Guns in Canada Q: Is airsoft legal in Canada? A: Yes. However, there is ongoing concern over the status of airsoft guns in Canada with specific reference to airsoft guns and broad statements by some agencies of the Federal Government that airsoft guns are replica firearms. Q: Why does it say that airsoft guns are replica firearms under the current Firearms Act on the Canadian Firearms Centre website? A: The website reference in question does not accurately reflect the existing Firearms Act and its related regulations. The website statement also contradicts spoken and written statements by the Canadian Firearms Centre (CFC) that airsoft guns are not replica firearms; other spoken and written statements by the CFC reflect the exact opposite position. The CFC has indicated that current policies regarding the classification and treatment of airsoft guns are not achieving the desired effect, and clarification is being sought on the status of airsoft guns. The direction of this clarification is not yet known. That decision will be made by the Minister of Justice based on advice from the Commissioner of Firearms, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and the Policy Consultation Directorate for the CFC. The effect of such a clarification will also extend to other agencies of various governments, such as the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency (CCRA) and the provincial governments of Canada. There has been no change in legislation or regulations with respect to firearms, airsoft or otherwise, since Royal Assent of Bill C-10(A), which contained amendments to the current Firearms Act prescribing joule limits on the definition of a firearm in addition to existing velocity limits originally set out in the Firearms Act. Under the current Firearms Act, a replica firearm is defined as: “(Criminal code sec. 84 (1)) "replica firearm" means any device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, a firearm, and that itself is not a firearm, but does not include any such device that is designed or intended to exactly resemble, or to resemble with near precision, an antique firearm;” However, airsoft guns are fire projectiles capable of breaking the skin and causing significant injury to an unprotected eye, which would result in permanent blindness. The inability to cause bodily harm is an additional pre-requisite for the categorization of a replica firearm, as stated in regulations. The CFC has now given policy direction in the form of a Fact Sheet issued February 10, 2004, that they consider the penetration of skin or an eye as a serious bodily injury. The significance of this new policy direction is clarified within the Criminal Code of Canada Sec. 2, where a firearm is defined as: “a barreled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barreled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;” According to this definition, an airsoft gun is now a firearm, as it fires a projectile. However, the confusion does not end there. Subsection 84(3 d) of the Criminal Code of Canada states: “(3) For the purposes of sections 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03 of this Act and the provisions of the Firearms Act, the following weapons are deemed not to be firearms: (d) any other barreled weapon, where it is proved that the weapon is not designed or adapted to discharge (i) a shot, bullet or other projectile at a muzzle velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second, or (ii) a shot, bullet or other projectile that is designed or adapted to attain a velocity exceeding 152.4 m per second.” This subsection applies to airsoft guns, as their velocities are below the prescribed maximum threshold for velocity and the prescribed maximum threshold for energy, the latter laid out in amendments to the Firearms Act contained in Bill C-10(A). In practice, the application of that limit is open to significant interpretation by law enforcement officers, CCRA officers, RCMP technicians and CFC officials. As a result, there continues to be no specific definition for airsoft guns under existing legislation and regulation. Further clarification on these points is reflected in the options paper prepared by the Airsoft Initiative entitled, “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability.” Q: Have things changed? A: Yes, but not from a legal standpoint. With the support of members within the Canadian Airsoft Community, we have received replies in response to our letter of contact to the CFC sent July 24, 2003, and our options paper entitled “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability” sent to the Commissioner of Firearms on September 25, 2003. In these replies, the Commissioner of Firearms has indicated that a further policy decision on the status of airsoft guns in Canada will be addressed by the Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch at the Department of Justice. A fact sheet from the CFC issued February 10, 2004, has confirmed that the CFC considers the penetration of skin or an eye as a serious bodily injury. This new policy from the CFC's fact sheet would seem to reflect the options paper we submitted to the Commissioner of Firearms on September 25, 2003, particularly our contention that many airsoft guns are capable of causing significant bodily harm, and they are not designated as replica firearms under existing legislation. Q: What is the current status of airsoft guns with respect to legislation? A: There has been no change in legislation or regulations with respect to firearms, airsoft or otherwise, since Royal Assent of Bill C-10(A), which contained amendments to the current Firearms Act prescribing joule limits on the definition of a firearm in addition to existing velocity limits originally set out in the Firearms Act. Q: What is the current status of airsoft guns with respect to policy? A: The CFC has indicated that current policies regarding the classification and treatment of airsoft guns are not achieving the desired effect, and clarification is being sought on the status of airsoft guns. The direction of this clarification is not yet known. That decision will be made by the Minister of Justice based on advice from the Commissioner of Firearms, the RCMP and the Policy Consultation Directorate for the CFC. The effect of such a clarification will also extend to other agencies of various governments, such as the CCRA and the provincial governments of Canada. The Northwest Region of the CFC is the regional office tasked with the analysis and policy work that will be carried forward to the Commissioner of Firearms, and by extension, the Minister of Justice and the Solicitor General. The Commissioner of Firearms has also requested that the Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch at the Department of Justice give consideration to the matter. Q: What is the difference between policy and legislation? A: Legislation refers to an act of parliament passed into law. These acts, such as the Canadian Firearms Act, have force in law. Legislation in Canada can lay out definitions, restrictions and penalties under the law, most often the Criminal Code of Canada. Furthermore, legislation can prescribe abilities for a Minister of the Federal Government to create regulations and orders in council, which also have force in law. A regulation is a delegated or subordinate legal instrument made by the authority of legislation passed by the Legislature and controlled by a Minister responsible for the overall area. Like acts, regulations are legal instruments that have force in law. An order in council is an instrument used to exercise power that the Legislative Assembly has delegated to Cabinet, most often a single Minister. The delegation of power occurs through legislation so that decisions may be made without returning to the Legislature. A policy is an interpretation of an existing legal instrument, (e.g. an act, regulation or order in council), usually made by a division of the public service. Policies may or may not have direction from the Minister responsible for the area. Policies do not have legal force in law, although they may help to guide decisions based on existing legislation. Q: What is the current status of airsoft guns with respect to the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency? A: An internal policy document for the CCRA, commonly referred to as a D-memo, identifies airsoft guns as replica firearms under the current Firearms Act. Based on that policy, the CCRA has stated that it is illegal for unlicensed individuals to import airsoft guns. The CCRA regularly seizes such imports as set out under existing operational policies and practices. However, the internal D-memo used by the CCRA is based on an interpretation of legislation. The policy document is not law in and of itself, nor has the ruling of the CCRA been tested in a court of law. The Canadian Airsoft Community has identified serious concerns in the data used to draft standards for modern airguns, with particular sections using data collected over 100 years ago during the American Civil War. The Canadian Airsoft Community does not feel that such data accurately reflects the battery-driven gearboxes and compressed air springs used in most airsoft guns. The Canadian Airsoft Community has also collected documentation from the RCMP on the absence of testing done with airsoft guns. The Canadian Airsoft community is not satisfied that conclusions drawn from existing data accurately reflects the technical capabilities of modern airsoft guns, nor does it address the scope of airsoft guns currently available. Q: What is the Airsoft Initiative? A: The Airsoft Initiative is an informal umbrella term used to apply to those individuals that drafted an options paper with the intent of seeking stakeholder consultation status with the Federal Government, specifically the Department of the Solicitor General and the CFC and the Department of Justice and Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch, on the subject of airsoft guns in Canada. Q: What is the current status of the Airsoft Initiative? A: The Airsoft Initiative is preparing a response to the Commissioner of Firearms at the CFC and the Director of the Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch at the Department of Justice. The Airsoft Initiative is also awaiting a response from the Northwest Region office of the CFC, on the submission of an options paper entitled “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability.” Q: What is the current status of the options paper, “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability”? A: The options paper was completed with input from airsoft players and retailers from across Canada and submitted to the Commissioner of Firearms and the Chief Firearms Officer for Northwest Region shortly before the policy consultation deadline of September 30, 2003, set by the CFC to solicit public feedback on general comments and proposed regulations concerning the current and its related regulations. A reply to the options paper was received by the Airsoft Initiative on November 10, 2003. The Federal Government has indicated that the our options paper was successfully considered in the policy consultation process for the Firearms Act, and the options paper has also been considered and forwarded to various agencies and departments within the Federal Government, specifically the Criminal Law Policy and Community Justice Branch at the Department of Justice. A copy was also sent to CCRA. Q: How is the Canadian Firearms Centre connected to the Department of the Solicitor General? A: The CFC and RCMP are divisions of the Department of the Solicitor General, currently led by the Honourable Wayne Easter. Q: Why is the Airsoft Initiative not in contact with the Canada Customs and Revenue Agency? A: The CCRA, RCMP and various law enforcement agencies take their policy direction on airsoft guns from the CFC, led by Mr. William Baker, the Commissioner of Firearms, and the Department of the Solicitor General, led by the Honourable Wayne Easter. The Airsoft Initiative formed its recommendations with the intention of addressing the status of airsoft guns on a national level. As such, recommendations from the Canadian Airsoft Community addressed the highest levels of authority with proposed legislative amendments and policy mechanisms designed to accomplish our goals. The goals and recommendations contained in the options paper, “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability” address legislative amendments and policy mechanisms that would need to be affected by the Department of Justice and Department of the Solicitor General, which in turn gives policy directions to other agencies of the Federal Government, including the CCRA, the CFC and the RCMP. Q: If that is the case, why was the options paper submitted to the Mr. William Baker, the Commissioner of Firearms for the CFC, instead of the Honourable Wayne Easter, Solicitor General? A: The goals and recommendations contained in the options paper, “Airsoft in Canada: Partnership Through Accountability” address legislative amendments and policy mechanisms that would need to be affected by the Department of the Solicitor General, which in turn gives policy directions to other agencies of the Federal Government, including the CCRA, the CFC and the RCMP. However, the CFC is a division of the Department of the Solicitor General, and the responsibility of firearms in Canada falls under the mandate of that division. Decisions made by the Commissioner of Firearms must eventually pass through the Solicitor General, but it is the Commissioner of Firearms who will carry those recommendations forward. As such, the options paper was written for the audience responsible for reading it. Q: Why is the Airsoft Initiative not in contact with provincial governments? A: Airsoft guns in Canada are addressed by the Criminal Code of Canada, the current Firearms Act and its related regulations. The Airsoft Initiative formed its recommendations with the intention of addressing the status of airsoft guns on a national level. As such, recommendations from the Canadian Airsoft Community addressed the highest levels of authority with proposed legislative amendments and policy mechanisms designed to accomplish our goals. The powers to address airsoft guns are not within the mandate of provincial governments. Q: What about provincial Chief Firearms Officers? A: The powers of a provincial Chief Firearms Officer are granted by the current Firearms Act, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Federal Government. The powers to address airsoft guns are not within the mandate of provincial governments. Q: What about the Ontario Imitation Firearms Regulation Act? A: The Ontario Imitation Firearms Regulation Act, which became law during the fall session of 2000, is an act that compliments existing clauses within the current Firearms Act. However, provincial legislation is subordinate to federal legislation. It is not entirely clear, either through legal definition, legislation, regulation or practice, that airsoft guns are governed by the Ontario Imitation Firearms Regulation Act. The powers to address airsoft guns are not within the mandate of provincial governments. Q: What about those provinces that have signalled their intent to opt out of the current Firearms Act? A: The current Firearms Act affects all provinces and territories in Canada. As of August 2003, eight out of the ten Canadian provinces had signalled their intent to opt out of enforcement of the federal Firearms Registry, which is one component of the current Firearms Act. A position on the enforcement of the Firearms Act as a whole from various provincial governments remains unclear. However, the Firearms Act continues to have effect in Canada, regardless of a particular provincial government’s position on the act. The decision to opt out of enforcement of the federal Firearms Registry is a political decision, not a legislative decision. As such, the position of a particular provincial government and its relation to the current Firearms Act is dependent on the current government for a particular province. The reliance on a provincial government’s political position for interpretation of existing federal legislation is not recommended. Even so far as the federal Firearms Registry is concerned, the position is tenuous at best. The powers to address airsoft guns are not within the mandate of provincial governments. Q: What makes a firearm under Canadian law? A: To be classified as a firearm under Canadian law, specifically the Firearms Act, an airgun must fire in excess of 500 feet per second (152.4 metres per second) AND have a muzzle energy in excess of 5.7 joules. Q: Do airsoft guns in Canada need to have orange tips? Do orange tips affect the status of airsoft guns in Canada? A: No. The "orange tip" requirement is a US-based law. Q: Can I pose additional questions to you or the Airsoft Initiative? A: Yes. We will answer questions to the best of our ability. This is going way off the topic of this thread and you can find your answers in a second by logging on to http://www.jocairsoft.com or http://www.airsoftcanada.com If you can find any info anywhere that states you need a PAL I will be happily proven wrong, I'll assume you will get laughed off the forums, but once again prove me wrong. I did just sell some of my guns this week. Quote
Nick0Danger Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 Yea dude no probs, still got mine. Was gonna drop it, but some other brought it up. Its definitely better than the paint, but just did not become popular. Quote
lonefisher Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 OK someones gotta stick up for paint. Totally poaching this thread I know...... But it has to be done I've played with both, though not as much with airsoft and I like both. I still prefer paintball. Here are some relevant numbers Paintballs 17.5~17.7 mm at ~ 3.6 grams @ max 300 fps (you can get more its just usually illegal) VS Common Airsoft pellet 4.5 mm at .12 grams @ 300-700 fps Disclaimer --I am to dumb to actually calculate this stuff so I stole it all for the interweb and these would be at muzzle velocity and do not take into consideration a number of things-- Anyways your looking at about ~ 9.5 ftlbs of impact force for a paintball VS .5 ftlbs @ 300 fps for the airsoft .12, 2.00 Ftlbs at 700 fps However Airsoft are made up to a .45 SO a .45 1.38 Ftlbs at 300 fps BUT at 700 FPS you are looking 7.5 ftlbs (now your talking) I do really appologize if at any point my mathematics misrepresents anything With a fully auto Pball gun which last I heard max out at approx 28 bps you are looking at 100.8 grams of projectile in a 1 sec burst With a .12 at 30 BPS you are looking at 3.6 grams in a 1 sec burst (hey thats the weight of 1 paintball) Anyways paintball is not for pussies...... neither is airsoft...... Lets not talk about laser tag Airsoft rocks scenario games Paintball rocks small course high intensity games Paintball and airsoft are not the same thing at all I will say for airsoft the impact is gonna carry more of its energy into you due to the fact the pellets don't disintegrate and they are impacting on a smaller area. The .45 airsoft at 700 fps is gonna hurt good....... please don't shoot my grandmother with it. Quote
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted February 16, 2009 Posted February 16, 2009 your right on the fact that the bbs dont collapse on impact but its the kinetic energy of a .2 g bb drops dramatically over 20 or 30 feet, but over all its the same game with cooler gun and no stupid hoppers on top. Quote
bhurt Posted February 18, 2009 Posted February 18, 2009 I agree chris, this was such a nice and innoncent post till the thread jackers came along. Quote
Guest 420FLYFISHIN Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 yah, well its hard to be hip hop so what yah going to do? Quote
bhurt Posted February 19, 2009 Posted February 19, 2009 yah, well its hard to be hip hop so what yah going to do? I never knew ganster and hip hop where the samething. To me gangster is nothing but an attitude while hip hop is about social awarness. Quote
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