Swore I Wouldn't Go, But...

[rehsifylf]

Used to go down to what some described as "that river" every fall for years. But when our friendly neighbors to the west stuck it to us by implementing unfair tarrifs on us, i swore i wouldn't go back. Same goes for the St Marys in the summer. Well - after seeing some pics on here today, I just can't hold out any longer.

 

But I can tell you one thing. I won't buy so much as a stick of gum while I'm there. Not a fly, not gas, not food, not lodging - nothing. It's not much, and might be aimed at the wrong people - but it's all the ammunition I have. I'm also going to keep track of what I would have probably spent in the province for the two nights and two days.

 

As someone who holds a BC birth certificate - I'm still smoked over the double standard they applied regarding Classified lic. The fact that we can't buy an annual license and that one day on the river costs more than a BC resident's annual license still really bothers me.

 

My last trip was fall 2004 - by my count - that 3 years * 2 trips per year * ~3 days per trip. This is what it cost the area, but of course they'll get $40 out of me this year.

 

What really smokes me is editorials like this from tools that claim to be 'born and raised in BC' - but live in Vancouver. http://www.ariverneversleeps.com/backissue...5/letters.shtml. I'll wager that I have more family in the Kootenay region than he does.

 

This guy - like many in BC - has an axe to grind with Albertans in general (Anyone who was born and raised there knows that kids are taught from an early age to despise 'Albortions"). If people in BC said the same things about a visibile minority that they say about (and to) Albertans, they'd lable themselves as ignorant racists.

 

Calgary has 1 million people that are within 3 1/2 hours of these rivers. Name a BC city of more than 50,000 that is within 6 hours. This clown lives in Vancouver - only about a a 12 hour drive from the river he speaks of. Guess what moron - go check the rivers that are 3 1/2 hours from Vancouver and I expect you'll not find too many Alberta vehicles parked there, and I bet they are crowded. Regina is only 8 hours from the Elk and tribs. It takes about the same time to drive from Virden Manitoba as it does from Vancouver, for crying out loud.

 

Man - now I'm all worked up about this again. I'm considering cancelling the trip.

[snakeman]

 

 

 

[duanec]

here is a direct quote from a member of the St Mary's Anglers made to someone in a flyshop i was in back when it came into effect: "if i never see another goddamn alberta licence plate parked along that highway it will be too soon"

 

i have a place in the area that's been on the market since this came down. on my 5-8 annual trips there in the summer off-ski season [when MANY local businesses are scratching dust] with my family & friends over the years we made a point of buying & supporting local. yes, i will still go...maybe once a year [not this year]. and yes we will continue to ski there once or twice a year. and yes for every oilberta ass like myself who does not pump in the $$ support, someone else fills my shoes...maybe.

it makes me very sad as i deeply love that whole area, it's closer in size and the mix of people and demographics and geography to where i grew up, and felt it to be a really good place to make second home for the fam. my loss, boohoo...whatever.

 

it's still stuns me what a small but very vocal group got implemented so quickly in the name of conservation. fundamentally i have no issues paying some level of premuim as a non-resident - i get that, but the fact i can't buck up for a once for a year license, and the extra hassle that gets thrown in on top [which is by the way also intentional], it makes you wonder if it's worth that 20 for a day when you're standing at the counter.

:derby racer:

what this whole issue does do is make me wish there was a formal organization here, with the same level of lobbying power that they have [and i suspect if the $$ were accounted the real value of our resources is immeasurably superior], as i live for the day that vocal group can no longer afford to fish [or guide and earn a living] on any waters on this side of the divide.

[zed]

Used to go down to what some described as "that river" every fall for years. But when our friendly neighbors to the west stuck it to us by implementing unfair tarrifs on us, i swore i wouldn't go back. Same goes for the St Marys in the summer. Well - after seeing some pics on here today, I just can't hold out any longer.

 

But I can tell you one thing. I won't buy so much as a stick of gum while I'm there. Not a fly, not gas, not food, not lodging - nothing. It's not much, and might be aimed at the wrong people - but it's all the ammunition I have. I'm also going to keep track of what I would have probably spent in the province for the two nights and two days.

 

As someone who holds a BC birth certificate - I'm still smoked over the double standard they applied regarding Classified lic. The fact that we can't buy an annual license and that one day on the river costs more than a BC resident's annual license still really bothers me.

 

My last trip was fall 2004 - by my count - that 3 years * 2 trips per year * ~3 days per trip. This is what it cost the area, but of course they'll get $40 out of me this year.

 

What really smokes me is editorials like this from tools that claim to be 'born and raised in BC' - but live in Vancouver. http://www.ariverneversleeps.com/backissue...5/letters.shtml. I'll wager that I have more family in the Kootenay region than he does.

 

This guy - like many in BC - has an axe to grind with Albertans in general (Anyone who was born and raised there knows that kids are taught from an early age to despise 'Albortions"). If people in BC said the same things about a visibile minority that they say about (and to) Albertans, they'd lable themselves as ignorant racists.

 

Calgary has 1 million people that are within 3 1/2 hours of these rivers. Name a BC city of more than 50,000 that is within 6 hours. This clown lives in Vancouver - only about a a 12 hour drive from the river he speaks of. Guess what moron - go check the rivers that are 3 1/2 hours from Vancouver and I expect you'll not find too many Alberta vehicles parked there, and I bet they are crowded. Regina is only 8 hours from the Elk and tribs. It takes about the same time to drive from Virden Manitoba as it does from Vancouver, for crying out loud.

 

Man - now I'm all worked up about this again. I'm considering cancelling the trip.

 

 

you're going to bc but you wont spend any money but you're going to figure out how much you could've spent? and who will you tell? who would care? certainly not a bcer.

[Taco]

[trailhead]

I live for the day I never see a BC plate parked at any access point on any river in Southern Alberta. Though that'll never happen, they are as two faced a group as you'll ever see. And if any of them don't like the tone of this thread; then DON"T FISH IN ALBERTA. I don't fish in B.C.

[rehsifylf]

you're going to bc but you wont spend any money but you're going to figure out how much you could've spent? and who will you tell? who would care? certainly not a bcer.

 

Good point - it'll make me feel better.

 

Oh - and I've decided that I will need to avail myself of some services while I'm in BC. I'll make sure I take my trailer to the dumping station .

 

BTW - last time I checked, my passport says Canadian, not Albertan or BCer.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I shouldn't, but I will.

 

Who really gives a damn where someone resides and why is it a problem because a person is not presently from the place they are fishing?

 

This makes me laugh because how many true, Born and Raised Albertans, British Columbians, etc. are there anymore. Most people are from somewhere else originally. The person that started this thread is originally from BC. Who gives a damn what the license plate says and why would anyone let it ruin their day.

 

One example is, Phil Rowley now resides in Alberta, but I'm sure he still fishes in BC. Is that a problem? Jim McLennon and others fish all over the place, should they be sure not to have Alberta plates on their vehicles.

 

If you go down to the Elk River Drainage, there are plates from everywhere, Montana, Washington State, Texas...and yes, Alberta. They are all paying the daily CW license fees and I am a first hand witness to how the money generated has been put towards the fishery. I don't agree completely with how it is set up, but think it is a system that is necessary and think if set up correctly, should be used on all waters that could be classified as Trophy waters, including lakes.

 

20 Freakin' dollars a day to fish in one of the most beautiful areas on the planet. List off the things you bought for $20 in the last month that you didn't need and you'll see how petty it really is.

 

If someone tries to use the "Principal" BS argument, they just don't get it....

 

Everyone's got an opinion, but this is ridiculous when it turns into another "Us" against "Them".

 

Everyone complaims time and time again on how the regulations need to be changed to protect and improve the fisheries. When someone does just that, everyone sits back a cries about it.

 

If you don't like it, just don't go..... :$*%&:

 

I didn't post this to get a list generated of the true born and raised Albertans by the way....

[cgyguy]

Totally agree with you Missin'. I am a born and bred BC'er but have lived in Alberta for over 20 years. Does that mean I am should be adopted by Alberta, and never look back at my home province because I am now considered to be an Albertan? Hey, if you don't wish to fish BC, then don't go, simple. For BC'ers, ditto for fishing in Alberta. You have to balance the good with the bad, and MAKE A CHOICE. Saying you are going to go fish BC but not spend any money, is, in my mind, simply rediculous. I have no problem paying the required fees to fish BC, if I did, I would stay home and not bother. But for a small investment, you and I can fish some of the prettiest waters in the world. If that makes you mad that you have to pay to play in this province, don't go. I am not sure what it is that any of the people that object to the fees in BC, are planning on doing about this. Right now, all I see is a select few whining and complaining, but that is all. If you want change, then why not take it on as a challenge and join up with all of the other persons who feel unjustified, and lobby your concerns. Simply complaining about it, grows very long in the tooth. Please, understand that my thoughts are also aimed at BC'ers that don't like Alberta fishing, you stay home too! I'm going fishing..............

[H2O]

This article is almost 4 years old. If I experienced what this fella wrote in regards to the crowding and steady stream of drift boats then I would want to do something about it too. I had never been to the Elk prior to the regulation change but a couple of years later I've gone 3 or 4 times and had a great experience. There was no crowding and no steady stream of drift boats. It would seem what the B.C. Government hoped to achieve has been working.

 

Calgary has 1 million people that are within 3 1/2 hours of these rivers. Name a BC city of more than 50,000 that is within 6 hours.

 

Perhaps your proving the guys point that maybe there were just too many Albertan's flooding these rivers? I don't see any hidden agenda or government conspiracy, that type of fiction should be left to the movies and shows like the X-files, I think the editor had it bang on:

 

The nub of these new fishing regulations in southeastern BC is not about the fish (but they will surely benefit) nor is it about non-resident fishing license fees (although the additional revenue provided by residents, non-residents and guides will finance the enhanced management). The nub of the matter is sustaining the high quality fishing experiences which attract all of us to these waters. We all have a different definition of quality, but the emerging combat style of fishing I now encounter regularly on these waters does not fall into my definition and I expect, does not match many others as well.

So....short term pain, hopefully for long term gain.

[rehsifylf]

This article is almost 4 years old. If I experienced what this fella wrote in regards to the crowding and steady stream of drift boats then I would want to do something about it too. I had never been to the Elk prior to the regulation change but a couple of years later I've gone 3 or 4 times and had a great experience. There was no crowding and no steady stream of drift boats. It would seem what the B.C. Government hoped to achieve has been working.

Perhaps your proving the guys point that maybe there were just too many Albertan's flooding these rivers? I don't see any hidden agenda or government conspiracy, that type of fiction should be left to the movies and shows like the X-files, I think the editor had it bang on:

 

All I will say is that I fished the Elk for 10 years before the regulations and a) always had spectacular fishing (except flood year), never saw half as many drift boats as on other excellent fishing/drifting rivers (including the Bow).

 

If fishing pressure was the issue, then the regs should have applied to all people fishing the river including locals. Does it make sense that someone born and raised in Coleman has to pay $20 a day to fish a river 15 minutes away, but a guy who lives in Vancouver pays $15 a year?

 

But lets ask the board.

[orvisonly]

If everyone had to pay $20/day I would fully support this. If the bulk of the pressure was from Albertans then the bulk of the revenue would come from Albertans.

 

The Vedder river, close to Vancouver "is always crowded. If you want to fish the best runs, you had better plan on arriving well before first light. The locals joke that you need to bring your own rock to stand on." I think they need to implement this as a Class II river.

 

And to respond to cgyguy about "BCer don't fish in Alberta". What reason would BCers have for not fishing in Alberta. They pay the exact sames fees as someone from Alberta would. Reciprocity is all anyone is asking for here.

[Keith]

What I don't understand is why Alberta hasn't stepped up to this. I see BC plates on the Crow all the time. Is the Crow not a busy river? I say we fix our 'crowding problem.'

 

For a province that is known (and reviled) nationally for not letting people mess with us or our resources, I can't believe that nothing has been done about this.

[rehsifylf]

What I don't understand is why Alberta hasn't stepped up to this. I see BC plates on the Crow all the time. Is the Crow not a busy river? I say we fix our 'crowding problem.'

 

For a province that is known (and reviled) nationally for not letting people mess with us or our resources, I can't believe that nothing has been done about this.

 

You're right Keith. I think a few people have pointed out that crying about this is not good enough. To me the only thing worse than crying about this is not crying about it. MTB - principal is important to me, not BS.

 

I think a few approaches have been taken so far and failed - but perhaps because they focussed on only fishing reciprocity. Maybe we should focus on reciprocity of unjust application of discriminatory conduct.

 

How about we impose a sales tax on all British Columbians when they drive into Calgary and load up on tax free stuff? It wouldn't really add much to our revenue, and it likely wouldn't stop them from coming - but it would be fair according to their rationale, and be a real nuisance. After all, it is Albertan income tax payers that pay enough tax to negate the need for a provincial sales tax. Also - have you seen how busy the malls are lately? And I've seen BC plates in the parking lot - so it must be those damn BC people coming into our province to spend money (how dare they?). We must figure out a good method to get rid of 'em so that our malls can be emptier and we can enjoy a day of non-combative shopping.

 

Well - that's just a first idea. I'll try to come up with some others

[OneMoreLastCast]

The Vedder river, close to Vancouver "is always crowded.....

 

That's 'cause April guides on the Vedder

 

Seriously though, it wasn't about over crowding. It was about protecting the fisheries.

 

Rather than let the streams that hold Wild Cutthroat and Bull Trout, (among other species), get to the point the Thompson Steelhead, Alberta Walleye, etc., they decided to be proactive. Some people took it personally as a direct shot at Albertans.

 

In my opinion, (as most that know me know), I think BC is light years ahead of Alberta in Maintaining and Sustaining their fisheries. It's not about about reciprocity, it's about protection of a resource. Of course Albertans are going to be the most affected, We are the closest population that doesn't have to cross an international border to take advantage.

 

If putting regulations in to protect the fisheries is against anyone's principles, like I said, I don't think you get it and might have to re-evaluate.

 

By bringing Tax Free shopping into a discussion about sustaining a sensitive resource is only going to take the discussion sideways and really doesn't apply.

 

Of course I think the Bow, The Crowsnest, Stauffer, Bullshead Res, etc. should be governed under the same type of regulations, but for what ever reason, We here in Alberta don't seem to get it.

[orvisonly]

Seriously though, it wasn't about over crowding. It was about protecting the fisheries.

 

Come on man, if it was about protecting the fisheries - they would have made them Class I or at the very least applied the Class II rules equally to locals, who have always had at least 50% of the traffic on the river.

 

Its clear by the way that this was rammed in, without even consulting the city councils of Kimberly and Cranbrook - even though the St Mary's runs between them, that this was the case of some local guides who were bummed that their clients weren't happy with seeing recreational fisherman on the river. There was no science presented - nor has there ever been.

 

As for the Classified Water regs leading to river improvement - we both know that it was a different change - where angling license revenue which used to go directly to BC general revenues, started instead being used directly for fisheries management. They both happened around the same time. It was the latter that has led to the improvements you refer to.

 

If people want to know what 30,000 BC Wildlife Federation Members pledged in 2005: How about,

 

To Non-Residents:

 

This province has world-class angling and some of the most beautiful scenery to offer today’s discerning travelers. The promotion of BC’s fishing opportunities to outdoor enthusiasts from the rest of Canada and around the world is very important to our economy. The fiscal benefits derived from angling tourism are often to smaller more rural communities that would not see such revenue without visiting anglers and provide jobs in areas where often unemployment runs higher.

 

and

 

Decreasing License Sales:

 

As unpleasant a truth as it may be, the fact remains that freshwater and tidal license sales have been dropping for more than a decade and less people are fishing. Dropping license sales coupled with the further challenge of less young people being recruited to the sport of fishing during that same time frame, results in an aging angler demographic. This reality could spell a future tumble in participation and a steep decline in revenue (to all support sectors including government).

[Keith]

That's 'cause April guides on the Vedder

 

Seriously though, it wasn't about over crowding. It was about protecting the fisheries.

 

Rather than let the streams that hold Wild Cutthroat and Bull Trout, (among other species), get to the point the Thompson Steelhead, Alberta Walleye, etc., they decided to be proactive. Some people took it personally as a direct shot at Albertans.

 

In my opinion, (as most that know me know), I think BC is light years ahead of Alberta in Maintaining and Sustaining their fisheries. It's not about about reciprocity, it's about protection of a resource. Of course Albertans are going to be the most affected, We are the closest population that doesn't have to cross an international border to take advantage.

 

If putting regulations in to protect the fisheries is against anyone's principles, like I said, I don't think you get it and might have to re-evaluate.

 

By bringing Tax Free shopping into a discussion about sustaining a sensitive resource is only going to take the discussion sideways and really doesn't apply.

 

Of course I think the Bow, The Crowsnest, Stauffer, Bullshead Res, etc. should be governed under the same type of regulations, but for what ever reason, We here in Alberta don't seem to get it.

 

These regulations have more to do with chauvinism and protectionism than they do with the protection of the fishery, and that is why they are so annoying to people. I would absolutely bet my life that the number of fish getting hooked on Elk has not gone down since the introduction of these regs. I have even heard of one study that is finding an increase in pressure because people feel the need to get their 20 bucks worth, so instead of fishing for a couple of hours and grabbing a pint they are hammering the river from sun up to sun down to get their 20 bucks.

 

This is just one more case of people trying to pass of an environmental public policy in order to meet their own political or personal aims. If they really wanted to protect the fishery then they would increase the fees for BC residents, as they are the majority users. This is comparable to Dion's green shift. In principal a tax on carbon sounds great, but wait, we aren't going to tax gasoline, which is the single largest source of carbon emissions in the country. What is the sense of regulating a problem if you are going to let the largest source of the problem slide through. Well in Dion's case it's because taxing gasoline is a very unpopular idea with voters, so we'll tax oil plants in Alberta and let drivers and voters in Ontario slide. In BC it's the same thing - let's drive off Alberta anglers, but we'll leave 90% of the anglers to do their thing because they can vote in our jurisdiction.

 

I would totally be all for any restrictive regulations to protect the fish here or in BC (or to limit CO2, for that matter) but these policies are just ugly politics dressed up as enviro solutions.

[rusty]

I'm with MTB 100% - it's twenty freaking dollars.

 

My absolute favorite part is all the fellow Calgarians who talked about how boycotting the place would turn it into a ghost town. When I drove by the twin shops the other day there were over 20 vehicles parked out front.

 

I used to make all the same arguments - and then I realized that BC was well ahead of the game and Alberta has a lot of catching up to do. The difference is that BC is trying to make sure that everyone can enjoy the fishing experience, while Alberta is foolishly trying to encourage more people to fish to pile more people onto our strained fisheries. Look at the immense effort that some of the good folks here put in to get the few quality lakes we have, then grab the BC regs and count the number of 1 fish over 20" and artificial fly only lakes in there.

 

Number of days in BC last two years: 8

Number of times checked in BC: 2

 

Number of days in AB last two years: well over 150

Number of times checked in AB: ZERO.

 

If you don't want to go, then don't.

[jonny5]

Yep, like some people said, its only 20 bucks... fish anywhere else in the world, and its 20 bucks or more a day... not that I like paying to fish, but I don't mind when the fishing is good.

 

That being said, if it really bugs you, just get your license online and put your self as a BC resident. Not like you need a passport or ID to go fishing, just a fishing license.

[birchy]

I chose "no" only because I'd like to be able to buy an annual classified waters license as well.

[zed]

You're right Keith. I think a few people have pointed out that crying about this is not good enough. To me the only thing worse than crying about this is not crying about it. MTB - principal is important to me, not BS.

 

I think a few approaches have been taken so far and failed - but perhaps because they focussed on only fishing reciprocity. Maybe we should focus on reciprocity of unjust application of discriminatory conduct.

 

How about we impose a sales tax on all British Columbians when they drive into Calgary and load up on tax free stuff? It wouldn't really add much to our revenue, and it likely wouldn't stop them from coming - but it would be fair according to their rationale, and be a real nuisance. After all, it is Albertan income tax payers that pay enough tax to negate the need for a provincial sales tax. Also - have you seen how busy the malls are lately? And I've seen BC plates in the parking lot - so it must be those damn BC people coming into our province to spend money (how dare they?). We must figure out a good method to get rid of 'em so that our malls can be emptier and we can enjoy a day of non-combative shopping.

 

Well - that's just a first idea. I'll try to come up with some others

 

i'm sure you will but that's part of the problem not the solution, missin the bow has got the better ideas...

[lonefisher]

You guys you just need to know how to get ther goose when you go down there..... Drive down in a big work truck with some kinda "oilfield" business decal (you know someone whos got one i'm sure) Walk in with a few buddies ask for what you want and 6 days worth of it toss down a wad of thick 100 bills with some strategically placed Alberta Oil on over it (don't forget to smile) also try and casually throw in a comment along the lines of "best half an hours worth of work I ever spent" All of a sudden that 20 bucks won't feel like a a victory to anyone.

 

I'm just kidding though

 

In all seriousness though I really don't care I just pay and fish...... no point in B&C'ing about it I figure. Whats it gonna solve anyways?

[reevesr1]

I'm heading to the Invermere area next weekend for a 3 day trip. At least one day on classified waters, maybe 2. I'll just pay and smile. I do wish I could just pay for the year though.

[Smitty]

Rehsifylf:

 

Can't say I sympathize at all with what you're saying. The article is 4 years old, and if you feel that strongly about it on principle, then do indeed cancel your trip.

 

Whether it was done for (1) the fish and conservation reasons (2) limit crowding (3) a combo of both reasons, what's done is done. The bottom line is that Albertans (and Canadians in general) are more than happy to pay $20+ to go to the movies (including snacks), $50+ to attend Oilers/Flames games, $50+ for an afternoon of golf, $50+ for a day of skiing. The list goes on. We're a consumerist society.

 

Bottom line is $20/day is a hell of deal to fish world class waters. I have no problem with the fee, AS LONG AS the fee goes towards conservation/preservation/enhancement of the resource I am paying for.

 

What I do agree with is that our government is shamefully lacking in terms of implementing the same kind of policies. Seems like we're stuck in the previous century when it comes to charging the appropriate fees to non-Albertans.

 

Life's to short Rehsifylf for you to spend that much time feeling that upset about it, and/or potentially guilty if you do go, and/or potentially regretful if you do cancel. Why not go and enjoy the spectacular scenery and fishing? In my opinion, there are larger issues, fishing and non-fishing, to draw your sword and choose the hill in which to battle. But more power to you...

 

Good fishing,

Smitty

[rehsifylf]

i'm sure you will but that's part of the problem not the solution, missin the bow has got the better ideas...

 

I guess I have to use more emoticons. Hard as it is to believe - some of you couldn't figure out that I was joking about the sales tax idea.

 

And in case it hasn't been said enough - this has nothing to do with whether $20 is a fair amount to fish those waters.

 

But - enough said. Looks like the vast majority feel these regs are not fair.