Pictures Of May Long

[JMasson]

All of what has been said is what the new land use framework is trying to work out. How can everyone have their cake and eat it too....in a nutshell. It will divide the the province into 6 regions and many sub-regions and assess who will be using the land and how they will be using it (industry, ATV/ OHV, fishermen, hikers, birdwatchers, campers, etc...) and come with a framework to allow everyone to do what they want, within guidelines. It is also trying to get all the government agencies to pool their resources and work together...no small task when you consider all the governing bodies and all of them have their own bureaucracies. It all sounds very good and works on paper, we'll have to see how it will work in the real world. If it does work like it's supposed to, it will be a huge step in the right direction. Like I said before, there will be several months for public consultation once the framework is made public...which is supposed to be next week. I have direct contact with someone in AB Environment that is working on the framework so I'm sure I'll know when it has been released and let you all know.

[Xplorer]

Hi again guys,

 

Terry, Thanks for the info about the "report a poacher" program, I did not know that it worked that way. Thats cool that offenders can be held accountable with another persons input.

 

Rusty, I think about that everytime I cross a creek, but the atv/off road groups can only build bridges so fast, some creeks have to be crossed to get anywhere. I wish they all had bridges.

 

TerryH... I sense a little anger towards me here. I am just trying to talk about a topic that is very sensitive and a large concern to us all. I am not sure if the do what they "want" or "have always done" comments were directly at me or not, but that is not what I want. I want a balance of all users and that includes off road vehicles. There are many off road groups fighting for more access not less, and the government is listening judging by the feedback we are getting.

 

I am sorry guys, this post was not meant to be confrontational and if it was taken that way then I am sorry.

 

I understand about people that have been "around a few years" have seen more change than I have, but they also need to change with the times and realize that it isn't back when they were kids(way more people now) and nobody was around in the forestry....we all have to share the resources we have, even if we don't agree with the way other people enjoy them. We are all in this togther. I just want whats best for all of us.

 

Lance

[TerryH]

.........TerryH... I sense a little anger towards me here. I am just trying to talk about a topic that is very sensitive and a large concern to us all. I am not sure if the do what they "want" or "have always done" comments were directly at me or not, but that is not what I want. I want a balance of all users and that includes off road vehicles. There are many off road groups fighting for more access not less, and the government is listening judging by the feedback we are getting.

.....................Lance

Xplorer/Lance, my comments were not directed at you and were not made in anger. Like you, I was just giving my 2 cents worth -- I've made similar comments in previous discussions of the topic. We've all got our opinions and I hope we can have a discussion without it getting personal -- it hasn't so far. Terry

[Castuserraticus]

There has always been partying in the random camping areas. One thing that has changed is that we are a disposable society - pack it in and throw it away. And, the nature of the garbage has changed. Plastic sticks around.

[Xplorer]

Hi TerryH,

 

The biggest problem with posting's or email is that people may read it in a different tone than you wrote it and take your point or opinion the wrong way. I did that with your comments and for that I apologize.

 

I think we both want similar goals, because I agree with you that things cannot continue the way they are going. I would like to see more enforcement rather than areas closed but I guess time will tell.

 

I look forward to more discussion on this topic and sorry to the original poster for getting a bit off topic.

 

Thanks

Lance

[wtforward]

It certainly was an eye openner for Morton last year. The stupidity he witnessed was beyond belief.

As to the comment 'have to change with the time' I think it is appropriate with the random camping.

How do you expect to have enforcement with random camping ? At best it's pie in the sky. You would need

a small army to enforce it. At best restrict random camping to small areas that can be easily enforced

and put the rest into camp grounds were you have proper sanitary support. As to the ATV crowd it

it is the old 80:20 rule. The Atv crowd should start to stand up to some of there own. Geez we all have cameras

and cell phones that even work in some areas. Some of the crowd would not even be out there if they

could not rip around on an Atv. Those machine do more erosion damage than my garden tiller. When you

try to accommodate everyone you end up with some watered down regulations that satifys no one and still

compromises the environment. I hope Morton gets it right and if that includes severe restriction on AtVs

and randon camping great. The forests/streams sure could use the time to start healing. Our population

has increased about 3% over last years to just under 3,500,000 people. Back country activities left

unckecked is only going to get worse as we continue to rip up the province.

[Smitty]

Guys:

 

Absolutely agree with the notion of sustainability. $250 Billion dollars of investment is coming to this province in the next 2 decades. In the next few years year, if "only 10,000" people move here per year, it will be an anomaly. More likely the average will be around 20K net in migration.

 

Lance, I think you've made some excellent points, and whether you intended to or not, your point about "change" completely provides the final nail in the coffin about regulations. We need regulations, some sort of ethic, that reflects the 2008 reality.

 

And that reality is that our modern day society fosters more of a disposable mentality rather than a "stewardship" mentality.

The reality is not all activities are the same in impact. Some activities - like quadding - have much more impact than hiking. Its that simple. For example, that if you had 20,000 die hard hikers in the province and 20,000 die hard quadders, and in each group you found that 5% were uncaring, polluting, "don't-care-about-their-impact" yahoo/jerks, which of those groups " 5% yahoos" would cause more damage? There's a reason that hiking is allowed pretty much anywhere you go. Its not elitism, its about impact. Some times the stereotype fits, unfortunately, that's how stereotypes are made. My bet is the "average" "tree hugging granola eating hiker" has both (1) less impact and (2) a more responsible attitude than the "average" "mud-bog lovin', beer swillin' atv'er". Sorry, but that's my first hand experience with my family and wandering around Alberta's forests for 22 years.

 

The more impact an activity has by the "average" user, the more it deserves to be regulated.

 

The reality is that we already have pristine areas where activities are banned: Willmore = no motors, Ghost, Siffleur, (what's the 3rd one?) = no motors, no fishing, no hunting. Hikers, photography, bird/animal watching only. List goes on.

 

Its completely reasonable and acceptable to ban certain activities in certain areas. We've done it for quite awhile in the national parks - whether you agree/disagree is irrelevant. I am simply pointing out the reality.

 

Lance, I have been exactly where you've been; my father and I co-owned a beautiful Polaris atv (until it was stolen) and we used to frequently go up the upper Ram area/Hummingbird/Onion creek. We had a blast, and I was very responsible, like you. Kept the atv in the water for the absolute minimum amount of time. But I also got tired of seeing and picking near fights with guys washing they're atv's in the Ram and splashing around like it was their own backyard playpool. It was abhorrent.

 

Now atv's are banned in that area. Was a disappointed? Yeah, I was. Surprised? No. Glad? Absolutely - the insidious part of owning an atv is knowing you and 96% of the other people can act responsibly and appropriately, and the 1-2-3-4% can really! wreck it.

 

The only compromise I can see is the government ban nearly all "random" quadding in the east slopes, that atv'ers must stick to designated trails with bridged creek crossings, and have a fee structure perhaps tacked on to the sticker price of the quad, to help pay for enforcement. And in those areas without packed trails and bridges? Ban the atv's until responsible OHV groups decide they want to build and maintain them. Some people want to make this debate about whether atv's should even be allowed anywhere in the eastern slope foothills/mountains. I don't agree with a blanket ban, but I sympathize with the position. Without a compromise between the "free for all" mentality and the "total ban" mentality, if I were forced to choose, I go with the total ban. Better to err on the side of protection in my opinion. Hopefully it won't come to that, but something has to be done.

 

Well, that was a rather long winded way to say that we have to deal with the reality of sustainability means. I do believe in balance and fairness Lance, but in a democracy to achieve equality automatically means you cannot treat every group equitably.

 

Smitty

[kipper]

I keep looking at this to see if there are any pic's posted as that was the original post request. Has anyone taken any pictures of random camping and/or the damages occurring in these areas to show the forum or just some pictures of their outing this weekend?

[Xplorer]

Hey Smitty

 

You make some very good points and I am all for sustainablity. I am all for staying on designated trails and using bridges. Atv groups such as the calgary quad squad have been working with other user groups and installing bridges and fencing, repairing trails etc. One of the guys from SRD mentioned that on Sat's news report on Mclean. The topic of user fees similar to a park pass was brought up in the past for ohv users...by the users themselves, and the government ignored the idea.

 

I understand that the government has to do something about the situation but they are also listening to both sides. There are many atv business's and off road related money brought into the province and those people have there say too. How many atv dealers are there in calgary and area alone. Usually what ends up happening is that government trys to keep everybody happy and it ends up not being enough for either side.

 

I do not want to atv in a national park. There seems to be this misconception that atver's want to go everywhere and destroy everything. There may be a few that do, but thankfully the national parks are well protected.

 

This is far from a new problem, for atv and offroad enthusiants this has been going on for many years. There are many groups out there that are working with the government and other stakeholders to keep the areas open to atv's and Offroad use. The Waiparous area was a crazy free for all, so they brought in GAMP and designated the trails, limited the truck trails, and left most of the atv trails. What happened, riding at waiparous is so much better now. Is it perfect?? No, but it is a start and the government feels that it is a success. Similar restrictions were placed in Indian Graves(800lb limit for ohv`s) and the now the government considers that area much better off. What will they do to Mclean...who knows....

 

Also just so you know, Onion creek, Hummingbird creek and canary creek trails are still open to atv use from July 1 to March 15 every year. They did not ban atv's and are monitoring trail use.

 

Thanks

Lance

[Smitty]

Lance:

 

I misled you - my post at the part about the ban was written poorly, perhaps you can shed some light though.

 

It was my understanding that they banned quads along the upper South Ram, did they not? I thought that once you hit the Hummingbird equestrian staging area, you are only allowed to quad on Onion, Hummingbird and Canary (my post would have led you to believe otherwise). I was told that only horses allowed to access the South Ram trail to the ranger confluence and that way, and that atv's had been prohibited.

 

Is that correct? I will try to look up on gov't website. Sorry for the hi-jack.

 

To the other poster (forgot your name): I wasn't out this weekend, so naturally, I don't have any pics.

 

I hope Nick's meeting with his MLA is productive.

 

Mike

[Xplorer]

Hi Mike,

 

You are right on about the trails, Onion, Hummingbird and Canary are allowed for atv use during the dates specified, South Ram trail is everything but motorized users. Ranger creek trail is open in the winter (Dec-Mar I think)to atv's.

 

I though you were saying no Atv access at all, I get what you were saying now

 

I too hope Nick's trip to visit his MLA is good one with results.

 

cya guys

Lance

[Rainbow]

These 2 statements say it all for me seem the only solution that our government can come up with is to close every thing or make it into a park rather than enforcing the rule and regulation that are already in place

 

If anyone thinks charging a few bucks to go camping on crown land is going to solve the problem they should camp at a Provincial Recreation campground. Was at one this weekend here are some of the things I saw, ATV running around the campground, target practice with pellet guns in the campground, public property destroyed, people fishing with 2 and in one case 3 rods from boats and shore, litter all over the place my wife picked up 2 garbage bags of litter along the trails in the park. Did I see any enforcement of the rules no, Conservation Officers and RCMP drive into the area stay on the main road go to the lake, turn around and leave not one did I see a CO or RCMP get out of a vehicle. The Campground operators only seem interested in making money, only time you see them is to collect fees and sell wood.

Let’s see some enforcement of the rules that are in place not more rules that get ignored

 

M 2 C W

[SanJuanWorm]

They need to shut down Mclean during May long. Why? Because people are absolute morons.

[Tako]

They need to shut down Alberta during May long. Why? Because quadders are absolute morons.

 

Fixed for ya.....

[reevesr1]

Too many people are absolute morons.

 

This is a tough subject. How do you eliminate the morons so that the law abiding majority gets to enjoy the outdoors in whatever method they choose? I will say that advocating eliminating of any activity is a slippery slope. If we advocate the elimination of ATVs or random camping because of the goofs that choose to ignore the rules, all we are doing is teaching other, more militant groups a methodology on how to eliminate an activity a little more dear to our hearts, fishing. If I'm PETA, or any other animal rights or militant conservation group and fishing is in my sights, then I just look stories about poachers and say to my MLA "well, you can't get rid of the cheaters without completely eliminating the activity."

 

I'm not saying that you don't regulate, of course you do. What is going on at several sites around Alberta has to be curtailed, and getting the MLAs involved is critical. But whatever plan put together has to be done with input from all communities and a solution with buy in from all has to be achieved. The reality is you may have to sacrifice some parcel(s) of land to build tracks, bogs, whatever for these guys to play in. Once that is done, you make any fine for illegal activity STIFF. Confiscation of vehicle, big fine, whatever. Maybe confiscation of license? A few 10K or more fines will get the lawless communities attention.

 

Just my opinion.

[birchy]

Cover story of "Metro" newspaper today.. "Revellers leave 'black hole'". Talking about McLean Creek..

[SanJuanWorm]

Fixed for ya.....

 

So im a moron? I use the park responsibly. I don't camp during May long out there but every time im out I usually fill my back pack with empty beer cans and bring em back to the trash. I only cross streams on the bridges provided.

 

And I do some mad wheelies...............so mad i broke my rear grab bar off on monday.

 

[BillyGopher]

This thread is almost only missing one thing.

I LOVE JET BOATS.

[Harps]

I think the City of Calgary needs to step up and through a giant party on Long-weekends. From the news clips it looked like Mclean was the site of a second spring break...

 

Maybe have a giant music fest and in-town parties... lots of scantly clad girls selling shooters will keep people in the city. Also have a section of land with a couple big mud pits... peole can bring their toys, show off, not spend the gas on the 22x, and just tear up stuff. After its done they can just use that land for the bypass around the city, cause there'll be no vegetation left. They make money and save on hiring contractors to clear the construction area. Win win

[SanJuanWorm]

This thread is almost only missing one thing.

I LOVE JET BOATS.

 

 

YAH THAT

[j5ep00]

im back from the weekend and i can say its much better then it was in previous years...

the people partying on global news were me and my group of friends, you didnt see the quads and bikes because they were parked behind the trailer.

the partying shot came from saturday, they came back yesterday and took shots of us cleaning.

i also did a 5 min interview... which was cut down to one line haha. incase your wondering the lady asked how we kept our camp toghter with so many people. and i told her that we have learnt from our mistakes and we are growing up and getting more organized.

i was camped in fisher east of mclean creek and everything went pretty well! all fences i saw were still standing. all the creek crossings that were there from people "playing" in the creek looked dry and not used.

i cant speak of the other areas of mclean because i didnt not venture that far.

i spoke with every rcmp, conservation, fish and wildlife and forestry guy i saw. from what i hear from them the weekend went pretty well.

the rcmp stoped in our camp twice to thank us for keeping clean. there were young kids (10ish) from the neibour camp that spent more time in our camp then there own... a quick shot of people screaming for the camera doesnt mean that they are the ones causing the problems..

out of the nearly 50 people in our camp one was given a ticket for failure to produce insurance and regerstration. he was riding a friends quad and didnt know it was all under the seat... ticket was torn up as soon as the fish and wildlife came back by on his quad.

so now you know that what you saw on the news was not illegal what so ever and we cleaned up our crap.

 

i agree that something needs to be done in the area or its going to be devistated in the next 10 years if people cant learn to stay on trails etc.

i personally didnt see anyone off trail or where they shouldnt be.

the policing of the area this weekend was top notch, maps were availibale for people so they knew what areas they are allowed to use and which they are not. i spoke with a few forestry guys and mentioned keeping track of plate numbers on cars as long as the gps corrodinates to help figure out who is responsible for the mess if one is left. he was going to pass on the idea.

i will be back out there this week to help with clean up of the area. i will know more about how things went when i get back.

[j5ep00]

I think the City of Calgary needs to step up and through a giant party on Long-weekends. From the news clips it looked like Mclean was the site of a second spring break...

 

Maybe have a giant music fest and in-town parties... lots of scantly clad girls selling shooters will keep people in the city. Also have a section of land with a couple big mud pits... peole can bring their toys, show off, not spend the gas on the 22x, and just tear up stuff. After its done they can just use that land for the bypass around the city, cause there'll be no vegetation left. They make money and save on hiring contractors to clear the construction area. Win win

 

there are a ton of partys through out the year like this already. but nothing on the long weekend.

there are also 6 or more clubs in the city that have exactly that...

if people wanted to kick off there summer in the city im sure they would have stayed..

there is also a mud pit in the city that people with trucks and stuff frequent.

i think its illegal though but it wouldnt take much for the city to purchase the land.

those are some great ideas though, keep them coming!

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Do you know if Champion Lakes was closed off?

[j5ep00]

the fish and wildlife guys i talked to figured it would still be frozen over and i didnt want to show any of my friends where it was.

i fished the pond for 30 min and vizibility was less then an inch.

managed a 14" bow striping a bugger along the banks.

i really hope champion was untouched this weekend

[Guest bigbadbrent]

Well, people do now!