Pro/Cons for CW Licensing system in AB.

[riverwalker1]

A few weeks ago I was floating the Elk River in Fernie with my dad's buddy who has been a guide on the Bow, and the river systems around the Fernie area for the last 30+ years. We had 2 of the best days we've ever had dry fly fishing on the Elk and easily one of the best dry fly days of my life. Period. 

At one point during the day we got to chatting about the CW licensing system in BC and how difficult - and somewhat expensive it is - for an AB angler to get unguided days on the Elk and some of the other incredible smaller water systems in the area. I mentioned how I felt that some AB river systems had changed so much over the years with crowds, campers etc. and how much the fish populations & over-all health of the fish/river had changed as well. Not all for the better. I feel BC's CW licensing system has a great deal to do with how well the Kootenay river systems are managed & that AB could benefit from something similar to make sure our trout fisheries stay in good shape for future generations. 

So my first question is this; what are the pros/cons of a CW licensing system in AB?

We continued to chat about this topic as we floated the Elk that day and got to chatting about the benefits of a 'ski-pass' like CW licensing system for rivers in the Kootenay zone - i.e. pay $250 and get a seasons pass to the Elk, Michel & Alexander Creek for example, or for a longer period of time, say 5-10+ days. We both agreed it would be best if it was a fly fishing only licensing system, that it was likely to increase traffic on the more popular systems, but could be set up with close support from outfitters and guides in the area to make sure it worked for all of those who rely on those river systems to make a living. 

This leads me to my second question; what are the pros/cons of this 'ski-pass' like licensing system? 

Very interested to hear the communities thoughts!

RW

 

 

[northfork]

No brainer something should be implemented here, as a start in the SW part of the province. I don't think the AB government would ever mandate systems to fly-fishing-only though. More funds raised to be put directly back into the resource, but like everything else regulation changes, licensing changes, biologist work and efficacy studying only stands on top of having enforcement out there. Everything needs to start there.

As for it benefitting guides, outfitters, etc. in Alberta. I am completely in disagreement there. Fishing guiding in Alberta is unregulated, unlicensed, anyone can do it. Why do I care about the benefits to someone who makes their living off a public resource without paying into it? I know I will take flak for this as there are many "guides" on here, some are great. Many are great advocates for the sport, who truly do care about the resource, but just as many care only about themselves and the money. But until we get on board with regulating guiding like hunting (it has it's problems in Alberta too), that argument is out the window. That's like letting a timber company harvest on a crown timber license without royalties, or letting a natural gas company drill and produce gas and condensate without royalties. And when guides from other provinces can, and often do, come to Alberta and guide clients without Alberta getting any money besides license fees (which are fairly cheap but considering the quality of fishing anymore is probably not bad) that's absolutely not okay in my books.

At the end of the day this has to benefit the Alberta residents and taxpayers. I am tired of seeing the fishing and hunting opportunities dwindle and lack, due to poor management and high levels of usage and demand. It's all great for the economy but we need a total rework of the system in order to make it work, and let the resource start generating its own money and put it back in where it counts.

Just my two cents.

[bcubed]

I dont see how we could get to a 'quality' experience without some sort of limitation on angler days. Yes pick on the non-residents, and then non-resident canadians first.. but i really do believe we'll need some level of resident angler management. There are just too many in a 2-3 hour proximity of the southern streams with a limited number of truly great streams..

Fernie area improved dramatically as by removing the million + person source that is just next door, which in turn increased pressure here by residents. I know for a fact that i get leapfrogged by a hell of a lot more AB plates then BC or Montana, but hardly a surprise when you look at the total angler base nearby. Would removing non-resident anglers through inconvenience really make a notable difference?

I think the better question is how much are albertans willing to give up a couple days on 'their' rivers to improve their overall experience.

[northfork]

6 hours ago, bcubed said:

I dont see how we could get to a 'quality' experience without some sort of limitation on angler days. Yes pick on the non-residents, and then non-resident canadians first.. but i really do believe we'll need some level of resident angler management. There are just too many in a 2-3 hour proximity of the southern streams with a limited number of truly great streams..

Fernie area improved dramatically as by removing the million + person source that is just next door, which in turn increased pressure here by residents. I know for a fact that i get leapfrogged by a hell of a lot more AB plates then BC or Montana, but hardly a surprise when you look at the total angler base nearby. Would removing non-resident anglers through inconvenience really make a notable difference?

I think the better question is how much are albertans willing to give up a couple days on 'their' rivers to improve their overall experience.

Agreed, good points. The trouble is everyone has the double standard these days. They don't want to share "their" rivers with others but they never consider giving up days themselves. You hit it on the head with a massive fisherman population in close proximity to the SW streams.

[adams]

I think first we need to control the out of province anglers and guides. Simple to do..... increase fees 10x for them and/or implement system similar to BC. 

That may or may not, in itself, restore our streams and our fishing experience. If further action is needed, I would fully support a regulated rod-day system on our most pressured streams (Oldman, Livingston etc.). I would, personally, much rather be permitted to only fish these streams for a few days a season, and have a restricted amount of anglers on that day, than have the free-for-all we have now. I think this would be healthy for the fish populations and help to restore the experience back to what it was 20+ years ago. I stay away from these streams anyway for that very reason, but now the other streams are getting the same way.

As much as I hate government ineptitude and beaurocracy (with a passion), I think it is a necessary evil in this case. Just too many people in close proximity to these streams now. 

Adams

 

[Jayhad]

I am 100% against a CW system, it benefits one user group, Guides. If you think BC is a model of fishing quality let me know when you land a steelhead in spences bridge. 

so lets get to the meat and potatoes of this issue, you want more fish and less people around YOU when fishing.

well unfortunately we live in an area where the population is rising and resource isn't. 

So what's the solution? Taxation? Taxation is the solution? If too much of something is being consumed and we want less consumption, we should tax it? Like carbon?

Isn't there easier solutions than getting the man involved? 

The question is how do we get less anglers on the water any given day?

why cant you guys complaining start by not fishing these areas?

you know the problem is too many anglers, why do you compound the problem?

You have the power to self limit but you need the government to make the decision for you, I don't understand that.

if just the regular users of this forum didn't hit the SW streams for a season there would be an improvement.

limiting out of province users is a red herring in 2015 we had 303,212 Resident licenses and 10,193 Non-Resident licenses sold; 2017 saw a decline to 294,037 Resident licenses with 4225 Non-Resident licenses.  So by limiting out of province anglers we can at best make a 3% change.... come on.

The guys from Alberta fishing the SW streams are responsible for the quality of the fishing on said streams.  If fishing was banned there for  a few years when returning the fishing would be amaze balls.

 

 

[bcubed]

1 hour ago, Jayhad said:

Isn't there easier solutions than getting the man involved?

All your responses are why we need to get 'the man' involved. Typical tragedy of the commons, it will all be run into the ground as the majority of people dont self regulate.

[jayanderson]

I'm all for the implementation of a CW system for the SW streams, not as a way to limit angling pressure (but that might be a side benefit) but for revenue generation and as a way to collect general angling information. Also, guides/guiding must become regulated and taxed/fees charged accordingly. I love fishing on the east slopes few days each season, maybe 3 or 4 days tops on a good year, fishing drys to rising fishing and then I leave those fish alone. I heard of a great idea a few years back from a fellow angler for an endorsement stamp type of licensing system with a fee paid for each watershed fished with the revenue generated staying on that watershed/river system for enhancement and enforcement. I think the fly fishing community in Alberta should put more pressure on the gov't to improve/enhance to quality of the lake fishing experience, it might take some pressure off the rivers. Sorry I kind of rambled there but so many things that tie together I'd have to right an essay.  

[jayanderson]

2 hours ago, Jayhad said:

I am 100% against a CW system, it benefits one user group, Guides. If you think BC is a model of fishing quality let me know when you land a steelhead in spences bridge. 

so lets get to the meat and potatoes of this issue, you want more fish and less people around YOU when fishing.

well unfortunately we live in an area where the population is rising and resource isn't. 

So what's the solution? Taxation? Taxation is the solution? If too much of something is being consumed and we want less consumption, we should tax it? Like carbon?

Isn't there easier solutions than getting the man involved? 

The question is how do we get less anglers on the water any given day?

why cant you guys complaining start by not fishing these areas?

you know the problem is too many anglers, why do you compound the problem?

You have the power to self limit but you need the government to make the decision for you, I don't understand that.

if just the regular users of this forum didn't hit the SW streams for a season there would be an improvement.

limiting out of province users is a red herring in 2015 we had 303,212 Resident licenses and 10,193 Non-Resident licenses sold; 2017 saw a decline to 294,037 Resident licenses with 4225 Non-Resident licenses.  So by limiting out of province anglers we can at best make a 3% change.... come on.

The guys from Alberta fishing the SW streams are responsible for the quality of the fishing on said streams.  If fishing was banned there for  a few years when returning the fishing would be amaze balls.

 

 

A CW system isn't about limiting angling pressure, it's more about revenue generation. Why give away a resource which other jurisdictions charge heavily for? BTW this whole  whirling disease debacle is going to need $$$, big time