Be Careful Out There

[WyomingGeorge]

Don, there you go again!

 

Who cares? House pets all carry diseases and/or parasites that can afflict humans. Do pet owners typically die a terrible, lingering death as a result?

 

Nor have I caught swine flu, bird flu, West Nile, AIDS, tapeworms, hantavirus, and on and on. I'm not planning to exchange bodily fluids with any otters, and if the poo-line at Bonnybrook hasn't gotten me yet, I doubt a few otter turds will do the trick.

 

Do you wake up in the morning and see the world as a gigantic menacing smorgasbord of mortal hazards? Or are you just having some fun?

[DonAndersen]

Hi ya cube,

 

In the 150 years of trapping records from the Rocky Mountain Historic site there is one mention of otters. There was ONE traded to the site. The trading post served the tribes who lived along the eastern slopes. Lots of otters traded into Edmonton. And if the natives were tough enough to trade grizzly and wolverine hides, they should have found otters easy.

And just for you, the site closed in 1876 which is give or take 50 years before brown trout showed up.

But, you stories are good.

 

Don

[WyomingGeorge]

Should nature remain static for all time?

 

12,000 years ago, Alberta was nearly 100 percent rocks and ice.

 

That means virtually every living thing we see is ultimately an invasive non-native species.

 

So the crayfish have spread out of the Beaver River (possibly with human help), and otters are on the Eastern Slopes.

[DonAndersen]

Wyoming,

 

Being as you are from Wyoming, you may not know that Alberta didn't have raccoons, ravens, dew worms, whitetail deer, very few pelicans or cormorants or cows and on and on. Mind you we lost most of our buffalo, most of our frogs, prairie chicken, sage grouse, sharptail grouse but the big gain was people.

 

And Yupe I'm having fun. Even time I mention otters, the kiddies come outta the woodwork. Mind you,betcha none of the kiddies have ever seen an otter. But staunch defenders of otters they are. Damned if I know why. But it's the same bunch of kiddies every time making me wonder just who they might be. After all, Dave and I seem to have the only real names. The rest could be related to the otter stockers. Who knows.

 

But don't you have to wonder the incredible logic applied to justify stocking of otters. After all, SRD has little money or time for fisheries enforcement and them goes about stocking another uncontrolled fish gobbler.

 

Don

[DaveJensen]

First, these were not stockings, rather, were live releases. There is a big difference in intent. But, like you I question the intent but from a different angle - if there is no management plan that says this is a good idea how do you justify this and play God? But at the same time we play God by stocking waters with fish, build dams, roads, install crappy culverts, run cows all over, etc.

 

I was reminded over at Barry's place this afternoon that during Anthony Henday's exploration, in the mid 1750s, Henday wound up wintering between the Battle R & Stauffer Creek. The #2 pelt behind beaver that was showing up from trap lines at that time according to Henday's notes? Otters.

 

We do not know if the otters we see today are a response to habitat shift and finally, after a couple hundred years, it has shifted back to otters' favour - or if the live released males randomly found mates in the wilderness. Both seem far fetched scenarios. We have zero idea of how many otters are out there and little to say that it was more than 2 otters released. Should we study that or shoot all otters on sight? That depends on what the mgt is, and what is driving the mgt. Beyond that, we can't just have a couple of guys out there shooting otters on sight to control their numbers can we? I mean, that's never been done in central Alberta with hairy little mammals before to steer a stream to what humans want.

 

At the foundation of our discussions Don I've been trying to find the commonality between us for years. I fully agree that gov is slow. But I think they have to be in most cases. I get that you don't always appreciate that, Don, but I do get why you see it that way. It's frustrating being involved and perceptively getting nowhere, esp when you've had such obvious, immediate hands-on success with in-stream stuff. But policy and management planning takes a lot more time. I agree that live releases / stocking - pick the word - doesn't make sense and should come under scrutiny. But I hope you get my insistence that process has to be given time so that the true values of the variables and the discovery of all the variables in managing are allowed to be accounted for before we jump to conclusion or into a management scenario that is barking up the wrong tree.

 

How do you blend someone that wants to shoot otters on sight with someone that thinks process and time need be observed to make sure we are addressing the right issue/variables? I guess it makes for fun forum reading.

 

Cheers

[murray]

After all, Dave and I seem to have the only real names. The rest could be related to the otter stockers. Who knows.

 

 

I object!! I have been Murray since April 6 of 1949 and I am still Murray.

[dutchie]

I don't see anything wrong with otters , they got to eat also , even on the bow I've watched mink catch and eat fish , what's wrong with that

 

Now if you own a trout pond and it was stocked with your own fish , then I could see some old fart having the right to bitch ,

 

The otter has as much right to catch fish as you do Don , just he likes to eat his catch ,

[WyomingGeorge]

Don: I was born in Saskatchewan and have lived nearly my entire life in Alberta.

 

I happen to GO to Wyoming in the summer is all and I needed a forum handle.

 

It's a self-deprecating reference to "Wyoming Bill Kelso" in Peter Sellers' "The Party".

 

You know, "Oh golly, thank you so much for crrrrrushing my hand..."

[ÜberFly]

That's an AMAZING film! They don't make them like that anymore!!

 

P

 

It's a self-deprecating reference to "Wyoming Bill Kelso" in Peter Sellers' "The Party".

 

You know, "Oh golly, thank you so much for crrrrrushing my hand..."

[WyomingGeorge]

Alas, I don't tow my Clack with a Morgan Three-Wheeler.

[DonAndersen]

Dave

 

38 years and still doing nothing about Illegal perch stocking

 

And 30 years the population has diminished in Stauffer and nothing.

 

That ain't slow, that's comatose!

 

 

Don

 

 

[DaveJensen]

Ah, Don, bugger me anyway. I was hoping we'd find commonality for once. Alas... population on Stauffer. There is only a finite amount of biomass available in any ecosystem to a species. How that species uses it in a population pyramid dynamics changes/fluctuates over time. Do you want 30 browns @ 8 to 12" or 6 browns 20 - 27"? Because that is exactly what has changed in Stauffer. The same amount of biomass is tied up in browns today as it was then. We could change that by putting a bounty on all browns over 12" and you'd get your numbers back. You cannot cause any more biomass to brown trout than carrying capacity allows - and by all study the carrying capacity has not changed - only the biomass distribution has. Is it good or bad that we have more big fish that might not be as active as the hordes of smaller used to be? Depends on who you ask and what the population of users of the resource want. I kind of like how it is now, however. You'd be surprised how many of these a guy can catch in a season.

[christine9]

As previously stated, we as humans have made, and will continue to make our impact on the environment. That is undeniable. So we manage our impact. This responsibility includes managing wildlife. We as enthusiasts of fly fishing should be at least thinking about EVERY thing we can do about that. We are seeing many animals that are expanding or reclaiming their areas. It is irrelevant to me whether otters "belong" on eastern slope streams or not. They have healthy populations elsewhere, so why promote and protect them when they negatively affect our recreational opportunities? Am I selfish? Uh, ya! Or you can call it management.

 

I have seen otters while we were both fishing and while about 70% of why I fly fish is to commune with nature,when I came across the otters on the small stream we were fishing, I did have the gut feeling that these animals did not belong in the stream. They seemed much bigger than the ones I have seen in the sea but of course that was just setting. They were fat and fat and carefree and I swear one winked at me. Beautiful? Yes. Effective in their fishing? Much more so than me. There are 17 reasons why our fly fishing isn't as good as it could be in Alberta and in my opinion this rates as something that could be managed.

 

 

[Speycaster]

I would think that any environmentally responsible person would be wacking and stacking brown trout, after all they are an introduced invasive species.

[fishinglibin]

That's an AMAZING film! They don't make them like that anymore!!

 

P

Birdy Num Num

[christine9]

Its irrelevant to me whether or not brown trout "belong" in our streams just like the otters. They make great recreation so they get to stay. Management.

[Vagabond]

Is the Eastern Slopes of Alberta the only place in North America that otters are NOT native too?

I didn't realise until reading this thread that otters are not native to the the area,I just assumed that they inhabited every corner of this continent,which raises the question,how is it that other regions,provinces,states have amazing trout fisheries that coexist with otters?(hoping the sarcasm is not lost in text?)

[DonAndersen]

Vag....

 

First otters I saw were on the Gibbon River in the early 1970's. Several years later I saw a female and kit on the Firehole River which are all located in Yellowstone Natioal Park. The female and kit were preying on trout that had sought cooler water in a tributary. The Yellowstone National Park is world reknowned as a trout fishery.

 

Never saw an otter in Southern or Central Alberta till 5 years ago. I fish 110>130 days on open water each year. Have seen over 15 in the past 5 years and "0" in the preceding 50 years.

 

And this article about sums up info on Otters.

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/24/5640890/9-questions-about-otters-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask

 

Don

[DaveJensen]

To be clear, Vagabond, otters are native (even as a fringe of territory) as clearly shown in our history books. Either habitat/climate or man extirpated them. In the time since some began to cling to the false notion that today's world is as it has always been and anything new/outside the way it is must be bad, managed, and controlled based on what we want - which truly is our species' downfall.

But, if otters aren't native to the area: Anthony Henday reported otters as the #2 pelt in traplines between Stauffer Cr & the Battle R in the 1750s, who stocked them back then?

Don, of the 15 otters you've seen, how many were re-sightings? Answer: you don't know. Way too many open ended variables in your argument.

Avoiding facts to continue a position doesn't make sense. This is true in the case of otters & Stauffer's brown trout. At some point it kills need for discussion.

 

But Don, as I mentioned in our spat on the AO forum, Stauffer is a perfect place to carry out true biology, to study as many facets as possible. See, the above statements from me are based on the best available science. But our science spearheaded by our gov is not good science - it's science that serves a purpose of keeping minimum stocks of fish in our waters based on our min desire/expectation (and of course that is a generalization). At the end of the day we can agree to that (see, I found a commonality). We need better data to base decisions on so that we can substantiate what you are saying or dispel it. True biology would best occur in Alberta on Stauffer Cr - it's as closed an ecosystem on a functional trout stream as we have.

[Vagabond]

Jest sayn'....I have a hard time believing that otters are the plague of east slope Alberta trout streams when otters live on virtually EVERY other watershed in North America.That said,I'll admit I have "heard" of otters cleaning out small,private stocked trout ponds,and have personally witnessed or at least suspected otters as the culprit in cleaning out beaver ponds during winter that teemed with eastern Brookies just the previous spring/summer,but a few isolated cases of otters slaughtering trapped trout hardly makes them evil,they are simply efficient and opportunistic predators that once in awhile stumble onto an easy food source.

And speaking of food,it's not as if otters dine on an exclusive diet of trout...hardly!!They most often eat a lot more slower and easier to catch fish as well,suckers,whitefish,eels,crayfish,freshwater clams to name a few that exist in trout streams,plus warm water species in lakes,not to mention they will kill and eat frogs,muskrats,beaver kits,and other small mammals as well.(probably snakes,turtles,salamanders too?)

Anyhow,point being,it's not like an otter NEEDS 200lbs of trout/year to survive,they can do just fine without trout.

[vhawk12]

Birdy Num Num

You beat me to it....

[DonAndersen]

Now I've seen otters in the S. Raven, Beaver lake (both singles and family groups) Mitchell Lake, Ironside

Pond, Cow Lake & Pairies Creek.

Friends have seen them on the N.Ram, Cow Creek, Mud Creek, several family groups of up to 5 along Prarie Creek. Contemporary trappers have seen them along the Brazeau & Nordegg rivers.

Guess it is a wide ranging rodent.

 

And Dave is bang on right. The Boreal Forest, from the otter hides traded @ Ft. Edmonton was a prevalent species. As related several times previously, there was ONE otter pelt traded at Rocky Mountain House. Any otters that were traded@ Rocky were certainly not an important income producing animal.

 

Otters are a fur producing animal and are trapped and sold as such. They may be cute but for the trappers/furriers out there, they are a income.

 

As far as where they came from - gotta be from the north or south. They have been seen in large numbers in southern Alberta as well on the Elk although they were not native there.

 

As far as studying Stauffer, I would not only welcome, encourage but raise money to figure out why Stauffer is now producing 30% of the fish fit did in 1985. To date, govt has done 3 population runs and made it C&R. The population still is @ 30%. I've been waiting for 30 years for the motivation to happen to Govt. Hasn't happened through the last 2 leaderships and from the emails of #3, I expect nothing will be done. So Dave, if you have some magic pill to inject life into Govt, please feel free to do so. Give us a week or so to build viewing stands for the large crowd of anglers who would love to witness the resurrection.

And with that, we've chewed this thing to death.

The otters will stay due to Farley Mowatt, Walt Disney and Govt lack of management plan.

And I'm going fishing.

 

 

Don

 

 

[Vagabond]

Well Don,as a former trapper of 20 years give or take,I can assure you that otters do in fact have a relatively huge home range,in my experience up to a 3 week circuit of inter-connected lakes and streams that they will travel before returning to the hot sign that one might set on today.Otter "toilets" and slides are almost gauranteed sets that they visit every trip,but it's a waiting game,again,as much as 3 weeks some times from setting on a hot steaming pile until they return next.

So that said,the otters that you see today on Stauffer could very well be the exact same otters that you see next week on Prairie,and the next week on Cow,and next week on Clearwater or NSR or wherever?

They are roamers,wanderers,nomads,vagabonds if you will....like me.

See what I did there with lyrics.

[WyomingGeorge]

Whatever damage they may do, watching a pair of them float down the middle of a wavetrain, their heads swivelling alertly like little periscopes, almost daring anyone to come and do something about it, is a sight that never fails to make me grin ear to ear. I'd gladly hand them some fish just for the performance.

[DaveJensen]

Ok, back to Stauffer it is Don.

 

Did you read my post about biomass? You know, the one with the 27" male brown staring you in the face? The brown trout population - that is, total number of individuals - could be down 95% but if the biomass is the same, is there a decline?

 

NO.

 

It would likely show up in sizes - which it is. But you already dismissed that point - and I don't get why anyone would want to wilfully ignore the facts of what science data collection is showing us.

 

And that is only dealing with brown trout. Now add in the fluctuations of the pike and brook trout population and their use of the available biomass for fish in Stauffer Cr. Not only is there fluctuations in biomass distribution within brown trout, but pike & brook trout can eat into the biomass brown trout use and their #s and biomass distribution can also fluctuate. And then you have to consider that within Stauffer Cr, there are reaches that each species of fish utilize and various reaches will have higher/lower populations of each pike, browns, and brook trout.

 

To be clear to Don & everyone else: there is absolutely NO CONCERN for the available biomass in Stauffer Cr - it is the same today as it was in the peak study - the biomass is simply redistributed in sizes of browns with a little nibbled off the shoulders to accommodate brook trout and pike in their preferred reaches.

 

And regarding funding and desire to start data collection - a couple interesting conversations today @ the provincial RT mtg. The idea I've been floating a few years might be catching on with folks that have influence and $. It is simply collecting and analyzing data and tracking the changes and relative impacts/events through time. Things like previously mentioned in pH, turbidity, flow, temp, insect population/dynamics, angler use/density/creel, beaver influences on habitat (wood, water temp, etc), etc, etc. Quite a few folks are seeing that the discussion of Stauffer has to start turning toward measuring of the habitat and their causes and effects. Again, of all waters in AB, if we can't get it together to do this on Stauffer, we have no hope. Why is it important in my mind? Because we can at the very least extrapolate what we see there to other (relatively) low elevation brown trout waters and then overlap it with other studies to start to gain an appreciation of various impacts and impacts moving forward across Ab. And this is just off the top of my head - there are so many positive spin-offs.

 

Don, always remember that no matter what happens with Stauffer, and hopefully that includes what I typed above, it is all testament to what you & Barry laid foundation to. If we can get something set up to carry your hard work into the future, isn't that a wonderful next step?