Royalty Review

[Inconnu]

Yep I wonder how that could have heppened Don? Must have been a coincidence I am sure

[mikefromsundre]

"How can you tell the difference between left and right wing? The right wing people are willing to invest time and money to build companies that add to the prosperity of society."

(Sorry don't know how to work the quote option). I thought that the purpose of companies was to make a profit for their investors. I did not realize they were in business to better society. That must have been why ________(sorry name escapes me) was in the Sudan all those years -to help the Sudanese.

I have seen a lot of talk of Sask. Hey folks I was there in Estevan and Regina when Blakney tried to privatize the oil in the 70's. All the companies folded their tents and left. The world was ending. Estevan had empty buildings. Interesting how in recent years it has turned around and now the companies in Alberta are going to pack up and go to Sask. Good I say -perhaps they will then be able to expand Taylor Field and put 30,000 into Rider games and pay high price players with things like houses that are not counted in their salary caps (sorry still ticked about losing Burris years ago). My point is these things seem to come and go. The oil in the oil sands however will not go if it is left alone. It will still be there even if the companies slow down for awhile.

[ladystrange]

hey, look at my gut!

 

 

difficult not to ... i've tried really, really hard and yet, there it is. all sticky outy and looking like a belly button lint trap.

[Castuserraticus]

"How can you tell the difference between left and right wing? The right wing people are willing to invest time and money to build companies that add to the prosperity of society."

(Sorry don't know how to work the quote option). I thought that the purpose of companies was to make a profit for their investors. I did not realize they were in business to better society. That must have been why ________(sorry name escapes me) was in the Sudan all those years -to help the Sudanese.

I have seen a lot of talk of Sask. Hey folks I was there in Estevan and Regina when Blakney tried to privatize the oil in the 70's. All the companies folded their tents and left. The world was ending. Estevan had empty buildings. Interesting how in recent years it has turned around and now the companies in Alberta are going to pack up and go to Sask. Good I say -perhaps they will then be able to expand Taylor Field and put 30,000 into Rider games and pay high price players with things like houses that are not counted in their salary caps (sorry still ticked about losing Burris years ago). My point is these things seem to come and go. The oil in the oil sands however will not go if it is left alone. It will still be there even if the companies slow down for awhile.

A Chinese national oil company bought Talisman out of Sudan. Which country has a better record on human rights - China or Canada? Talisman built schools and medical centres there. Is China going to put pressure on the government to increase this type of development in the areas they work?

[Castuserraticus]

Castuserraticus neglected to tell you that:

 

1] The Alberta Gov't, under Klien, sold it's interest in the Husky Upgrader for nickels

2] Klien also sold about a 15% interest in Syncrude.

 

And then he cut royalties. Go figure!!

 

Don

The Husky upgrader, located in Saskatchewan, had been bleeding cash for years when it was sold. The gov't was tired of subsidizing Sask jobs.

 

Syncrude was a barely break even operation for most of it's existence. The government took the opportunity to sell when it figured a good price was offered.

 

Let's say your cane rods go up in value due to a sudden, short term cane shortage. Are you going to go back to the people you sold the rods to for a share of that value? Or are you going to stand by the deals you made with them?

[DonAndersen]

Cast...

 

Ain't going back for more money but for a share of the fish they catch. Yummy - - - fried trout.

 

Don

[yodatrout]

I like Taco's perspective.

As far as the impact on "Jim" that Rickr posted, I hope "Jim" saved some of the big money he was making when times were good/easy.

[mikefromsundre]

A Chinese national oil company bought Talisman out of Sudan. Which country has a better record on human rights - China or Canada? Talisman built schools and medical centres there. Is China going to put pressure on the government to increase this type of development in the areas they work?

All I am sayin is companies do not set out to help society. Their bottom line is profit first. Yes when profits are good some will make donations -and then that usually gives them a tax break.

Watching Regina TV off the dish on the weekend. A lot of political ads running before the election. The irony hit me. That companies are threatening to leave blue blood conservative AB and head to red NDP Sask. When the companies left Sk in the 70's the oil did not it is still there.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I too work for an oil company and am totally amazed at how the media, opposition parties and people that do not have the foggiest clue about what the magnitude is of the positive impact the oil and gas industry has on Albertans feel.

 

This is not a fight between big oil and the little guy, it is not between grandpa farmer and father oil president, not between son of a geologist or son of an environmentalist it has been a fight of political power and power loving bureaucrats and media editors looking to make a mountain out of a molehill.

 

Greed is central to every battle known to mankind. Whether it be fighting over women, land, fame or money. Everyone wants more than the other guy. Well I learned something in school about what type of society has everyone equal no matter how much harder they work, how much risk they invest to get ahead and regardless of how much added value they bring from their job. It is called communism and it failed!

 

I love asking this of people that think oil companies are making money hand over fist to the point of it being criminal. Why are you not investing heavily in oil companies? Hmmm as I laugh as they start to hummm and hawww. The answer is never there cause the reason they do not invest is because the oil and gas business is RISKY. They love it that others invest and pay the government big fat royalty checks and bring in tons of income taxes but….they had better not have to risk anything.

 

Regardless of whether you own a business selling coffee cups, hamburgers, books, shingles, socks or eye surgery, there is one thing that remains constant and that is the need to make more money from your business than you put in.

 

People just need to look to the actual numbers to see that oil companies are making about 4-18% rate of return depending upon, how smart they are and/or how lucky they are. Every year some companies fail, every year some companies do better than average but rest assured it is not common practice to see companies making 100% rates of return period…end of story.

 

But wait…that can not be the end of the story since people constantly bark about how Company A had record profits and Company B made billions last year. People dwell on these numbers for good reason since they are big and the story is a success. Hey…who else can pay taxes but successful people eh… Well the one issue that is often overlooked is the fact that these numbers are high because the oil companies making them are investing extremely large sums of money. Think investing 1 billion dollars to make 15% rate of return. The ratio mentioned earlier work about right for the average well and the profit is huge. Companies then can sell the gas but they in turn have to pay for not only the drilling, completion, equipping, tie in, royalty, operation of the well, transportation, wages, etc. but probably a potential 4 dry holes that led up to this discovery in some instances. If finding oil and gas was so easy and simple there would only be one geologist in the whole world. The rates of returns are the same range as mentioned earlier but the magnitude of the risked investment is staggering also for some of the bigger companies.

 

How would people like it if the NDP came into power and said…hey…those dam oil companies are making all our money. We mandate that every Albertan pay us $50,000 cash and we will invest it in new oil wells of our choosing. Then happily we will get our money back and then some… Too good to be true is what I would say. If a private company in which the management team has there own money in can not make it work…I would be an idiot to let a politician spend it for me.

 

Companies will be leaving Alberta since quite frankly there are very few economic opportunities left to drill at today’s oil and gas price and at today’s cost. If things were so rosy as some have suggested then why was drilling slowing down as costs and commodity prices were going up? Encana was mentioned earlier and they are a resource based company. They go out and drill to find resource play (ie. Lots of gas but slow to recover and horrible economics), then assuming prices are high enough and costs are low enough they can play the margins and make some money over the long term. Play with the margins and the play is uneconomic and it will just sit.

 

I marvel that this royalty review panel was hired by the government to provide them with insights and then completely ignored the billions of dollars companies shell out to the Crown in land sale consideration. Some other areas of the world ask for upfront money also but many are in the form of work commitments. Here in Alberta we pay that money on top of drilling wells. Also if wells can not be drilled or are unjustified than that money is lost for ever. Now that same royalty panel appears hell bent to grab power for themselves. Instead of letting cooler heads prevail and allowing for the government to digest the information from all sides, the panel is dictating and barking orders to Stelmac. In an oil company that peon would be fired for yakking way too much.

 

The government has consistently gotten out of businesses such as oil companies and upgraders cause in many/some instances they were not profitable but a smart businessman took a risk where the government could not or else found that mixing government with business was like mixing fire and water…(i.e doesn’t mix).

 

Also people need to remember that when oil and gas prices rise, the royalty revenue rises with it. The oil companies risk there money and the Crown get the rising commodity prices free as an added bonus for not messing everything up.

 

In the end we can all hope cooler heads prevail.

[GuySmiley]

It's interesting reading of the benevolence of the Oil Companies and their philanthropic investments in Alberta vs. the greedy incompetence of the Government. I'm definitely not going to argue against the ineptness of the government, unfortunately they are all we have and their mandate is to do what is best for the people of Alberta, even if it means pissin' off their buddies in the ivory towers.

 

Despite industries best efforts to convince people of the opposite, I believe the Royalty Review is reasonable and definitely hope that Eddie does the right thing tomorrow. Unlike industry leaders the members of the review have been much more transparent and open to questions despite the slander directed at them and the underhanded methods of the industry. For one here's an interview a few of them did:

 

Energy royalties: responding to the critics http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news...90-866b114d55cc

 

But, of course, I am just one of the unkept masses.

 

Cheers,

[Harps]

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Despite industries best efforts to convince people of the opposite, I believe the Royalty Review is reasonable and definitely hope that Eddie does the right thing tomorrow. Unlike industry leaders the members of the review have been much more transparent and open to questions despite the slander directed at them and the underhanded methods of the industry. For one here's an interview a few of them did:

 

Energy royalties: responding to the critics http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news...90-866b114d55cc

 

But, of course, I am just one of the unkept masses.

 

Cheers,

 

I like those responses in the link:

In part. As I like to say, it's the oil price, stupid.

Otherwise you end up with a castrated view of the revenues

would suggest that you don't want to start setting up two sets of rules when they can't even monitor one

I want to make it clear that our problem is with the oilsands division, not the whole energy department

"It doesn't surprise me if the industry got to her. Her employer's bread is buttered directly by investors in the conventional energy sector. But she advanced the recommendations we adopted as a sector champion of that part of the report."

Nice when people don't dumb it down with political correctness, and just say what's on their minds.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Evan Chrapko and royalty expert Pedro Van Meurs cut me up. He likes to sound like this is the provinces best interest but instead sound more like a power play. I strongly expect they will be running for Liberal or NDP Leader next chance they get.

 

The garbage about not taking into account land sale purchases is the most bogus thing in his entire statement. He says the province deserves more but land sales don't count (I have over $1 billion reasons to say it is applicable). He says that other jurisdictions have similar payments...well have him give evidence specifically on what those payments are!

 

Many jurisdications do have payments of a sort but they are usually called work commitments. That means you agree to conduct $1 million dollars worth of drilling etc. to further along the value of the land and resources and in exchange should you drill the well you have the well. Great deal. In Alberta, past practice was you paid the government $1 million for the land and then on top of that you had to drill the well.

 

I hate power hungry guys that quote things as facts but do not back them up. The land payments are huge to the Albertan taxpayers. In fact Saskatchewan has felt that the bonus payments are more valuable that the royalties as they get something up front with no guarantee of any rate of return. Companies may pay the bonus and never drill a well until another company comes along and pays another bonus.

 

Also something he has clearly not taken into account is the rise in costs can be translated into rises in salaries etc. Those salaries increasing has increased the tax base for Albertans and on top of that filtered down to more and more working Joes paying taxes.

 

Now that the Liberal leader has come out to say categorically that they would ruin the Albertan economy, it should give Stelmac a chance to be more reasonable and fair to everyone.

 

Cause face it you can not run a business if you can not make a profit. Anyone that wants all the money should move to North Korea and see how wonderful communism is!

[wongrs]

how about backing up the figure of "tens of thousands will lose their jobs". how was that number calculated? or the actual development costs of finding oil/gas reserves amortized over lifetime bbls of a project. i'd like to see those numbers as well.

[GuySmiley]

Ok, so let me paraphrase your most recent post:

 

Two of the members of the royalty review came up with the conclusions they did because they are “power hungry guys” who want to run for the provincial NDP or Liberals. (Ya, running for the ND’s or the Grits is a sure fire way to gain power )

 

Inflation = rise in salaries = increased tax base (never mind increased costs and demands on infrastructure across the province because of the overheated economy, and most of us haven't gotten raises commensurate with the rate of inflation)

 

Increased Royalties = ruin the Albertan economy = communist totalitarian state (I’ll spare you my fascist dictator metaphor, but I do recognize the scare mongering. It's the tool of choice, isn't it? )

 

 

 

In that whole article you only found one thing to disagree with, does that mean you agree with the rest?

 

Wasn’t it the Tories who picked the people to make up the Royalty Review panel? How are Albertans supposed to know how much we should receive for our oil and gas? Should we just let the CEO’s of Syncrude, Suncor, Encana, etc. tell us what is reasonable for us to receive in royalties? Hold it, that’s the status quo, which Eddie has already said wasn’t acceptable… but, don’t worry I’m betting tomorrow he’ll cave to the pressure from the oil and gas industry and announce it will be business as usual. Then we’ll be reminded of who really holds power in Alberta. (hint: not the Grits or the ND’s)

 

Cheers

[Guest Sundancefisher]

When there is a major hole and total misconception in the premise that will lead to results that will seriously undermine the province's success and prosperity...I of course will have a major problem with it. Each and every comment has issues but rather than pick apart each and every one which will cause yours and my eyes to obviously glaze over you have to hit the meat of the problem.

 

You clearly need to take an economics lesson.

 

What would you say if I told you today that I could drain every last ounce of oil from the ground and sell it today at today's prices? What would you say? Any real economist would say take it and run...invest it elsewhere and ensure prosperity. Time value of money is always going to be a critical component to this argument as well. This stop the prosperity...crash the economy, destroy jobs and families along with it is great for the "average" Albertan is ludicrous. If you think oil companies are making tons of money over and above a reasonable rate of return...then why the heck have you not invested? Are you too lost in thought to see a good thing? Well obviously you would probably say no cause the risk is too great to invest "everything" since the oil patch has been cyclical and stocks have taken a big hit lately because of costs and gas price declines. Gone are the days of easy cash cow wells, the low hanging fruit now hangs so low it is hard to wrench from the dirt to make money from. To make a reasonable rate of return you have to invest billions of dollars in Alberta. Even then some companies go under.

 

The communist comment is for guys like you that feel that there is some secret society within oil companies that are making secret money and keeping it for themselves. Hate to burst your bubble but there are hundreds of thousand of us just working hard, trying to create value for our companies and in return Albertans in general like surprisingly enough we all are!

 

You make this a them against us argument like you feel cheated. I would suspect your salary or those of your family/friends/neighbours are strongly supported by the overall prosperity Albertans are facing over and above other Canadians even.

 

Maybe you are not even an Albertan! You should think long and hard before you wish an economic downturn in Alberta. When your job is lost or you find it hard to find a job for 5 years you will know what it was like repeatedly for many...many...oil patch workers over the years.

[GuySmiley]

Don’t worry you’re not bursting my bubble at all, I recognize that Alberta’s golden goose is the oil/gas industry, and that there are thousands of people that work extremely hard within it and that everybody relies on its’ continued prosperity and success.

 

I also recognize, as well as does the Royalty Review panel, Fred Dunn the auditor general and Premier Lougheed amongst many others that the Alberta Government has mismanaged it. It isn’t just us ”guys… that feel that there is some secret society within oil companies that are making secret money and keeping it for themselves.” Would Stelmac have formed the review panel in the first place if he didn’t have to? No, he did it to cover his ass because there are glaring problems with the royalty structure.

 

Tomorrow is an opportunity for the Tories to right some of their wrongs. Unfortunately, as I said before, Stelmac will likely cave in to pressure and threats from the oil and gas sector and will continue selling off Albertans' oil for too cheap. So, ten years from now you’ll either be vindicated or look like a oil and gas lapdog.

 

I don’t know where you get the idea that anybody wants to “stop the prosperity...crash the economy, destroy jobs and families”, but, if you think that things are perfect the way that they are, then maybe you need to spend a day in the shoes of someone who is living in a tent year round in a Fort McMurray campground or some working stiff who is living with 6 other adults in a one bedroom apartment in North East Edmonton.

 

Though, like me, I guess all they have to do to enjoy and prosper from the “Alberta advantage” is invest in Syncrude stocks.

 

And not that it matters, but, ya, I am an Albertan. And like many others my family suffered greatly from that last downturn. That is one reason I would like to see a reasoned development of our oil and gas resources as opposed to the firesale that’s going on right now.

 

Additionally, this isn’t “a them against us argument”. It is a matter of our government acting on two recent reports carried out by agents of the government (not communist environmental groups) that clearly say that all Albertans are not getting what their “fair share” from the sale of oil and gas resources.

[trailhead]

Is 5 billion in landsale revenues not a fair share? Again the glaring error that the "panel of experts" failed to adddress was the landsale dollars that the oil & gas companies pay for the 5 year window of drilling a well. Pretty big money for basically a spin at the roulette table. It is a royalty paid upfront.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Is 5 billion in landsale revenues not a fair share? Again the glaring error that the "panel of experts" failed to adddress was the landsale dollars that the oil & gas companies pay for the 5 year window of drilling a well. Pretty big money for basically a spin at the roulette table. It is a royalty paid upfront.

 

You bet it is royalty paid up front. We run economics based upon risk and reward and we can only pay so much for the reward until it become a communist statement that a company can not make any profit. Stocks are valued based upon their rate of return on investment. Stocks have come way down because companies are not making money hand over fist like they did when oil prices first spiked. You have to temper that upward spike with the late 1990's when oil dropped to $12 a barrel and many people lost their jobs, houses and shirts of their backs.

 

Hey Guy

 

Are you volunteering to take the hit in the chomps and lose your job...maybe your house and maybe your car...family and future...whether it is short term or long term? Of course you will say no...but then I strongly suspect you do not work directly in the oil patch. When the down turn does hurt...I am sure unless you work for the government...you job WILL be in jeopardy.

 

People that feel that government tells them everything they need to know shows what is wrong with society insofar as people can not speak or think for themselves. Many of us front line employees see first hand the facts as they happen in the real world rather than beauracrats and academics tring to shove and shoehorn theories and conjecture into some lab created reality.

 

I strongly suspect that these guys used some computer modeling work to make some of their determinations... Comments generated resently include Taft's recent poor judgement in trying to make political points. Like (my interpretation of today's quote)...duh...I am the Liberal Leader and I don't care if the economy and peoples families are destroyed in the short term cause in the term we will all be wealthier.

 

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail. People anywheres are not concerned about some tweaking...but wholesale slaughter of the industry would be horrible.

[jimbow]

People anywheres are not concerned about some tweaking...but wholesale slaughter of the industry would be horrible.

 

if that's not scare mongering i don't know what is?

 

land sales are separate and distinct from royalties. sure they result in money to AB but the issue is the royalty scheme not the overall economics of the industry.

 

the best thing that could happen to AB right now is for oil to drop to $60/bbl. and housing prices to drop say 33%. get the economy back to reality. do we really want an inflation rate that is more than twice the national average?

 

the oil companies and service companies will adjust - they always do. no more over inflated salaries. no more every second friday off on top of flex days. no more xmas parties at $400 per person. if you choose to work in an industry of bust and boom you'd better be prepared for both possibilities.

 

to the oil companies that are going to leave alberta i say don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. and of course you'll be welcomed back when you inevitably return.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

land sales are separate and distinct from royalties. sure they result in money to AB but the issue is the royalty scheme not the overall economics of the industry.

 

It is that total lack of understanding that motivates many to wonder why comment if you have no clue. The economics drive the play and included in those economics is how much a company can pay for the land. The land cost is not superfluous as it is $billions of dollars. You think this is a donation? That money will drop so all this pain and turmoil in the industry (people and not corporate pain) is all for naught. If the economics are so bad that you can not make any money then yes over the next couple of years, layoffs will cycle through, companies from oil companies to service companies to mom and pop small businesses that rely on the prosperity will cease to exist. Then slowly things will creep up so long as services can make money...which could be in doubt.

 

Some of you kids have no memory of the NEP. That governmental claw back decimated Alberta!

 

REMEMBER THIS...ONE IN THREE ALBERTANS IS RELIANT ON OIL AND GAS REVENUE! Think you will not be effected...good luck.

[jimbow]

It is that total lack of understanding that motivates many to wonder why comment if you have no clue.

 

Some of you kids have no memory of the NEP. That governmental claw back decimated Alberta!

 

REMEMBER THIS...ONE IN THREE ALBERTANS IS RELIANT ON OIL AND GAS REVENUE! Think you will not be effected...good luck.

 

 

ummm, here's a clue for you, it is affected. i may be affected or maybe i won't be (see prediction below).

 

i understand you're concerned but before you start telling people the sky is falling you may want to ensure that you can prove that in fact the sky is falling.....

 

my point is that it was the royalty review not the economics of the oil and gas industry review. i'm not saying that the land costs don't impact the economics but clearly that was not part of the mandate of the panel to review. the land costs are a separate issue from the royalties. does the land cost impact on the royalty rate in any way? perhaps the amount companies are willing to pay for land will decrease if royalties increase? perhaps they will still pay what they were paying before the royalty review? time will tell. my understanding is that over the last few years companies were in fact overpaying on the land cost such that companies without deep pockets couldn't compete at land sales.

 

i had lunch today with a senior vp of a mid size energy trust who although said although in his view there are problems with some of the recommendations he and his company are not overly concerned. based on his comments i'd say there's a lot of huffing and puffing going on whereas well managed companies are prepared to roll with the new rules.

 

this is not the NEP. the $ are going to stay in Alberta so seems a bit dramatic to play that card.

 

what you should take comfort in is that stelmach has been a disaster as premier from the beginning. he will capitulate to the oil money. there will be changes but overall they will be relatively minor and not in any way a slaughter of the industry (although the oil sands may take a hit).

[trailhead]

Yes it was a royalty review, and as such it should have reviewed the royalties in the proper context. To review them against Venezuala or Colombia or Alaska was completely flawed. As I said before compare apples to apples. In all of the other jurisdictions in the review, the oil companies bid a price of how much they will spend on the land the government has tendered, they commit to how much they will spend on seismic, geological/engineering studies and finally drilling. All of which they will have to do one way or another, so these costs do not go into the government coffers, they are spent in the economy, hoepefully local, and benefit the oil company. In Alberta, Saskatchewan and BC, the oil companies bid on the land, the only benefit to the companies is the right to drill, and ALL of that money goes into the government coffers. Then they have to spend money for seismic, drilling etc. So why did the panel not compare Alberta to the other two provinces?

[EdB]

As i have said in past posts i work for Calfrac well services and we work almost exclusively for Encana in Strathmore. Encana has said to us that if the taxes go through they will cut in half or maybe less. Calfrac had a big meeting and said that if that happens they will close the doors. So wongrs it may not be 10000 jobs or whatever was said buts its mine and that's 1 to many for me. It rolls alot farther down hill than me. The flow back tank guys, ferus, the guy who waters down the roads we drive on, the steam truck in the winter, the mechanics that work at Calfrac or the ones at Waterous that fix the trucks. Crown builds the trucks. If we don't need them then they don,y buid em. Shall i go on?

[OneMoreLastCast]

Thanks Premiere Eddy, Great report.....No information what so ever.

 

I've gone numb to it now and have set up options for myself and my family just incase. It doesn't look good from what I'm hearing up here in Fort Mac and I hope I won't have to really earn my nickname "MissinTheBow", but everything is looking like I may be heading overseas.

 

Oh well, whadda ya do.

 

I won't get into it, but I did want to point out something that some might not know.

 

Even though Oil is trading at aroung $90 dollars, that doesn't mean the Suncors, Syncrudes, etc. get anywhere close to that. They work on Contracts that are signed for a certain price just like anything else and are locked in at a certain price.

 

Also, when I said they are affected by the price of Natural Gas, I was stating that it affects them in the sense that they use it in their process, they don't produce it. They actually pay for it just like us, so when Our bill goes up, so does theirs. Their's is just in the Million$, not the hundred$.

 

If they are reasonable, everything will be fine, but please don't be fooled by a government that's main intention is to secure votes, which was very obvious in Stelmach's address just now.

 

I guess I have to keep my fingers crossed for one more day....Thanks Ed.

[EdB]

Thanks Premiere Eddy, Great report.....No information what so ever.

 

I've gone numb to it now and have set up options for myself and my family just incase. It doesn't look good from what I'm hearing up here in Fort Mac and I hope I won't have to really earn my nickname "MissinTheBow", but everything is looking like I may be heading overseas.

 

Oh well, whadda ya do.

 

I won't get into it, but I did want to point out something that some might not know.

 

Even though Oil is trading at aroung $90 dollars, that doesn't mean the Suncors, Syncrudes, etc. get anywhere close to that. They work on Contracts that are signed for a certain price just like anything else and are locked in at a certain price.

 

Also, when I said they are affected by the price of Natural Gas, I was stating that it affects them in the sense that they use it in their process, they don't produce it. They actually pay for it just like us, so when Our bill goes up, so does theirs. Their's is just in the Million$, not the hundred$.

 

If they are reasonable, everything will be fine, but please don't be fooled by a government that's main intention is to secure votes, which was very obvious in Stelmach's address just now.

 

I guess I have to keep my fingers crossed for one more day....Thanks Ed.

 

 

Thought you were mocking me MTB. No info what so ever

 

I'm nervous i can say that.