Guide's Association Yay/nay, & How Do We Start?

[GaryF]

Just out of curiosity, I am not a guide but have used an excellent one this year, what is bringing this issue up? What are the reasons that some would like to see this? Is it the quality of the service that is in question, a major risk to unsuspecting customers, what would be the need for a regulated guide? This is purely a question out of ignorance as I have no idea if there is a problem.

[ÜberFly]

There are probably many issues... One in-particular is for the protection of the resource (as well as protection of the business/industry specific to Alberta and more specifically the Bow)... Case in point... If you are NOT a licensed guide in BC you CANNOT guide on any BC water, where as BC guides, Montana guides, etc. can guide (and profit from the resource - and not pay local/provincial taxes) in Alberta and take revenue away from local (regional) guides...

 

P

[Bowfloat]

I never once changed a post to fit my theory. Perhaps you should reread every word, such as "if it works" in the quote from your post 2 posts ago...

 

35 bucks. That's approx 70 dollars per hour or more on any float, and a lot more for floats like glen to police...

 

It's no wonder I feel stupid everytime I post on this forum, doesn't seem to matter the topic or the fact that it's my own opinion, someone will jump on ya...What a giant waste of time

 

Good luck Jay

 

 

I am sorry if you feel stupid everytime you post, this is the first time I have disagreed with you. Maybe it is because of your opinion that you find people that are not of the same thought as you. Thats what a discussion board is for "to discuss different opinions".

 

So being the words you wrote "if it works" is the excuse for you when you do not to like your numbers.

 

Bcube I wish you would drop your rates so I could afford you but, you want to make a living just as the shuttlers so instead I will use someone that is more affordable to my wallet.

 

This is the same thing you should do. Don't like the price shop somewhere else.

 

 

[Bowfloat]

Why are totals posts being deleted from this thread.

 

So a guide does not like the opinion of others on a post they write so they have it and others with a refence to be deleted.

 

There should be a sticky on every section warning you that if you have a different veiw than a guide your post will be deleted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jusfloatin]

Why are totals posts being deleted from this thread.

 

So a guide does not like the opinion of others on a post they write so they have it and others with a refence to be deleted.

 

There should be a sticky on every section warning you that if you have a different veiw than a guide your post will be deleted.

 

 

Become a sponser and have no worries.

[bigbowtrout]

All hijacked posts (shuttle debate) have been moved to it's own thread(Not deleted). But thanks for coming out ^^^^^^

 

http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?showtopic=16537

[Jayhad]

Just out of curiosity, I am not a guide but have used an excellent one this year, what is bringing this issue up? What are the reasons that some would like to see this? Is it the quality of the service that is in question, a major risk to unsuspecting customers, what would be the need for a regulated guide? This is purely a question out of ignorance as I have no idea if there is a problem.

I bring this topic up as I would like to see a fundemental change to how the Bow is managed and I feel a guides association could achieve these objectives. Please note these are only my perceptions (wrong or right) of how the Bow could be managed to much better fishery.

 

From my OP.

[seanbritt]

Very interesting thread guys and lots of really great points being made. It seems like there is a lot of energy behind this idea, if we could only gather together a group of folks and harness the energy to make something happen!

 

I agree with most points and feel licensed guiding is a no-brainer. Heck, if Cuba requires guides to be licensed (they have to take a safety and a guiding course), why not AB?

 

It would be interesting to approach the same outcome from a different angle. Rather than look at it as a way to manage fisheries, pitch it (maybe to a different department?) as a way of helping ensure the safety of the public and stimulate a non-mainstream portion of the economy. Require, as has been said, things such as guiding courses, first aid courses, insurance, specially licensed (and plated) boats, etc.

 

As for "grandfathering" and the weekend warrior guides, I believe (or hope to believe) that those amazing full-time guides that are out there (Max, etc.) won't mind going through these processes because (1) its an ace in the hole and (2) they respect and want to protect the resource and the industry. As for the weekend warriors, I have a feeling they would weed themselves out as they wouldn't want to invest the time or $$ to become and official guide.

[Mikey]

I very rarely say anything on line but I have to chime in here. Guide licensing in Alberta BAD IDEA. First of all 90% of the guys can't agree on more than anything for more than 5 mins, but you expect people who are in competing business to buddy up? I owned a construction company for 10 years and never had any good dealings anyone in my field except for 1 and we are now partners. You ask for guide course? Who pays for them who runs them? First aid courses aren't free either. Special boat license plates that now govt involement that isn't gonna be cheap. So we have all heard how there "full time guides" don't make alot off coin believe me if they did it would be chosen line of work, but they don't. So how much more is gonna cost a guide per year run his business? who does that get passed along to the consumer. Which in these economic times I think having to raise the cost of a float 100/day is gonna effect the amount trips booked a year. You would also open the can of worms of gst now. Any company making over 30 000 per year is required to collect and submit gst. I bet you the guide tip goes down. again less money being made by the guides. And all these so called full time guides come on every one of them has a winter gig. There maybe seasonal guides but i dont see many boats in the bow in nov/dec. I too am a weekend warrior guide I have enjoyed takin some people out for there first time on the bow hell sometimes there first fish. I don't make the regular guide rate the people i take can't afford it. But I love it and can see no way in which I am taking any money out any ones pockets.

f you wanna do something positive for the resource. Pick up the trash you see, use proper fish handling and call rapp when u see dumb sh t going on.

[DaveJensen]

Sorry, I haven't read this all - a west coast spring creek is calling me as soon as I get off line! Don's got it bang on, but there needs be a bit more - the real question here is:

How do you want fisheries managed?

Do you want it based on popular vote or science?

Popular vote - qualitative "I think it's crowded and I think the river is too busy - and so do my friends and people I know & connect with".

Science - quantitative "The data says there is a healthy stock of fish, an advancing/ declining stock, etc. There are X people using that stock."

 

As Don pointed out, and something that I raised (strongly) at the FRT guide lic mtg last year, the commercial side of things is the very last user group, lumped in with netters, etc. Tying into that is the process by which our fisheries is managed. That process is based on science that says there has to be bilogical burden of proof showing impact (this can be +/-), public support, as well as political will. This process is sometimes slow, however, it must be in place to avoid knee jerking.

 

That all said, in essence, to work within the system we have, someone somewhere will have to develop a system within our system that establishes the criteria upon which the trigger is clicked to say "too much use", and the users are curtailed, beginning with guides. Based on that, however, you will not get 100% business/shop/guide support to close off guiding, so this will have to be imposed on guides - so don't look to the guide world to initiate this.

 

Personally, there should be limits to what waters guides should do business but how do we establish that - because guiding is simply business and if you preclude guiding, then shouldn't you then also preclude logging, o&g, ag, etc from the same watershed - and you know that'd fly really well in Ab.

 

Bottom line, this can't be popular / feel vote. There has to be a baseline trigger for the allocation of use established per watershed/type in order to determine when the threshold is crossed.

 

Anyway, the sun is shining and it's time to go hunt a brown here in NZ. Just make sure you think of process, the ramifications of process, and how one decision in one area becomes precedent for unintended outcome/reaction for another. Which is why fish mgt can't be popular vote.

 

Cheers

[DonAndersen]

Guides Association/Union/Cartel

 

There are only two questions that need asked:

 

1] Does the resource need it?

 

2] Do the guides need it?

 

If the answer to #1 is Yes, then the Govt should be involved to control Guides behavior and training with a revenue positive stance.

 

If the answer is #2 - like who cares - let the Guides organize themselves any which way they wish. Govt should not become involved, no legally enforced standards and the like.

 

Definition of Guides behavior would include items like: disease spreading by their client base, rude behavior to others, crowding of publicly owned facilities, crowding of public waters etc.

 

Note: A Govt program should not be competency based for fishing. Let the market place sort out who is a quality guide.

 

 

catch ya'

 

 

Don

[PGK]

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[BBBrownie]

I guide in BC, but haven't here in Alberta, although I live in Okotoks and fish the Bow frequently when I am home. My concern with regulated guiding on the Bow is in regards to the definition of guiding on a river that is primarily a drift boat fishery and the ramifications of this. Owning a driftboat, any time I am behind the oars, like it or not, I will be accused of guiding. This happens in BC with the current system all the time when guides fish on a system with friends other than those that they have rod days for. Suddenly we have no right to enjoy a recreational day of fishing because of the perception of illegal guiding(unless angling only with fellow guides). It would be very difficult to distinguish between someone who is just taking their turn at the oars, and keeping their eyes out for risers, etc, and someone who is "illegally guiding." How could you possibly differentiate this? This will breed a certain amount of contempt on the river without a doubt. Even someone who doesn't guide for a living and has a drift boat, wants to take some buds out for a day(or many days) on the river risks being called out. Other than bank fishermen, the drift becomes a gift to the guides. This would be nearly unenforceable with the traffic that frequents the Bow. There is and can never be anything illegal about floating the river everyday with your own boat and friends, but if you do this would become the perception to guides and anglers alike. Could really polarize the angling community here in Calgary.

As an Albertan, I don't think anyone has the right to tell me that I can't fish the river with my friends, or how often I can fish the river without being labeled a rogue guide or whatever when what I am doing is recreating, not guiding. When I am home the last thing I want to do is work on my days off, so there is no real risk of illegal guiding from me, it is all pleasure. On the other side of the coin, there will be huge issues with people claiming to be recreating, when in reality there is money being exchanged. How could you ever expect to police this in a city over a million without also bringing on all the negative vibes? Could you imagine the enforcement issues on the Skeena system if over a million lived in Smithers or Terrace?

[ÜberFly]

Just a question (not necessarily directed at you), but how is the circumstance you describe actually handled in BC (and/or Montana for that matter)?

 

P

 

I guide in BC, but haven't here in Alberta, although I live in Okotoks and fish the Bow frequently when I am home. My concern with regulated guiding on the Bow is in regards to the definition of guiding on a river that is primarily a drift boat fishery and the ramifications of this. Owning a driftboat, any time I am behind the oars, like it or not, I will be accused of guiding. This happens in BC with the current system all the time when guides fish on a system with friends other than those that they have rod days for. Suddenly we have no right to enjoy a recreational day of fishing because of the perception of illegal guiding(unless angling only with fellow guides). It would be very difficult to distinguish between someone who is just taking their turn at the oars, and keeping their eyes out for risers, etc, and someone who is "illegally guiding." How could you possibly differentiate this? This will breed a certain amount of contempt on the river without a doubt. Even someone who doesn't guide for a living and has a drift boat, wants to take some buds out for a day(or many days) on the river risks being called out. Other than bank fishermen, the drift becomes a gift to the guides. This would be nearly unenforceable with the traffic that frequents the Bow. There is and can never be anything illegal about floating the river everyday with your own boat and friends, but if you do this would become the perception to guides and anglers alike. Could really polarize the angling community here in Calgary.

As an Albertan, I don't think anyone has the right to tell me that I can't fish the river with my friends, or how often I can fish the river without being labeled a rogue guide or whatever when what I am doing is recreating, not guiding. When I am home the last thing I want to do is work on my days off, so there is no real risk of illegal guiding from me, it is all pleasure. On the other side of the coin, there will be huge issues with people claiming to be recreating, when in reality there is money being exchanged. How could you ever expect to police this in a city over a million without also bringing on all the negative vibes? Could you imagine the enforcement issues on the Skeena system if over a million lived in Smithers or Terrace?

[BBBrownie]

Tough for me to comment on as the river I guide sees few recreational/DIY anglers due to difficult access, location... the few questionable situations that arise over a season are called in and investigated, but much different situation than we see here on the Bow. Luckily I am sheltered from much of the politics involved in a busier river such as prime time bulkley/kispiox/copper/kalum...

I think we all must know by now that it isn't really being handled over there right now - See proposed Skeena AMP or any of the polarizing discussions regarding the AMP if you'd like to know how it is being handled in BC currently.

 

Edit: I am not trying to provoke anything or turn this into an AMP discussion, etc, I just don't want to see the Bow turn into another combat river and am worried that a licensing system may be a step in that direction.

 

[DonAndersen]

Riley,

 

You raise an interesting issue. How do we know?

 

Well, maybe we should look @ it as prima facie evidence.

 

If you run a mac boat, you are guiding.

 

Kinda like 2 guys wearing balaclavas sitting outside a bank and fondling their Glocks. Maybe they were just going for coffee but...

 

regards,

 

 

Don

 

 

 

 

[BBBrownie]

Riley,

 

You raise an interesting issue. How do we know?

 

Well, maybe we should look @ it as prima facie evidence.

 

If you run a mac boat, you are guiding.

 

Kinda like 2 guys wearing balaclavas sitting outside a bank and fondling their Glocks. Maybe they were just going for coffee but...

 

regards,

 

 

Don

 

Completely disagree with you Don. Just because someone has a drift boat doesn't mean they are a guiding. We all have the right to purchase a drift boat and float the Bow when we see fit without being accused of illegal guiding. It is ludicrous to think that if you have a boat you are a guide. Not even a logical argument!? It is absolutely nothing like your analogy above- unless it was a cold winters day and there was a shooting range next door. Do you seriously think that I would be one of the only anglers on the Bow that has a drift boat but isn't guiding? I know many personally, so to me that is laughable!

Another perspective would be guides on days off. If there were ever a rod day system set up, how would you police guides fishing with friends in their drift boat on days off? Unless there is a physical exchange of money, goods, services, etc, for the day of fishing is it really guiding and on a river in an urban metropolis how would you ever enforce or prove this?

Just sounds like a can of worms that could really complicate a great thing. I don't see this as a winning (or desirable) proposition for the average Bow River angler, would be negative for most of us, the only winners would be established local guides. The Bow River fishery is a public resource for ALL of us to enjoy not just guides looking for exclusivity.

[dutchie]

Completely disagree with you Don. Just because someone has a drift boat doesn't mean they are a guiding. We all have the right to purchase a drift boat and float the Bow when we see fit without being accused of illegal guiding. It is ludicrous to think that if you have a boat you are a guide. Not even a logical argument!? It is absolutely nothing like your analogy above- unless it was a cold winters day and there was a shooting range next door. Do you seriously think that I would be one of the only anglers on the Bow that has a drift boat but isn't guiding? I know many personally, so to me that is laughable!

Another perspective would be guides on days off. If there were ever a rod day system set up, how would you police guides fishing with friends in their drift boat on days off? Unless there is a physical exchange of money, goods, services, etc, for the day of fishing is it really guiding and on a river in an urban metropolis how would you ever enforce or prove this?

Just sounds like a can of worms that could really complicate a great thing. I don't see this as a winning (or desirable) proposition for the average Bow River angler, would be negative for most of us, the only winners would be established local guides. The Bow River fishery is a public resource for ALL of us to enjoy not just guides looking for exclusivity.

 

 

very very well stated Riley ,

 

 

 

 

[BBBrownie]

I think another perspective for me on this whole guide association/regulated guiding...obviously there are administrative costs involved. With the paltry state of fish and wildlife funding these days, first off i don't think in the current configuration that the regulation would be an option due to a lack of funds for administration. One could argue that licensing fees for guides would pay for administrative fees I suppose...in my mind with the current state of the environment in Alberta, including some of the issues described in this forum (the foothills come to mind) I would much rather see any fisheries dollars (as there seems to be so little) go towards things like habitat protection, enhancement, research, enforcement or our fisheries as this is still sorely lacking. Once we have taken care of important items like this then maybe we could consider using leftover dollars to regulate guides on nonnative tailwater fisheries such as the Bow? Just another argument for Nay that seems to be lacking from the discussion.

[Harps]

FOAM in Montana seems to do a good job. http://www.foam-montana.org/

 

The folks on the Mo can enjoy a day on the water or guide... The guide trips are on the books and numbers are on the boats so I'm sure if somebody had an issue the books could be looked at to get guiding times/income. It would be obvious if a guide floats everyday all summer but only records a couple trips. Plus guiding really is a small community and if an association was put together people would learn who is who pretty quick!

 

There will be issues (look at the new proposed management plan on the Madison), but for the most part it seems that the system works great. It also allows river info to be disseminated out to the folks that are on the water.

 

For rod day restrictions, look at the Big Hole and Beaverhead. There are days when guides aren't allowed to float with clients but they can do walk and wades. the guides I know down there use the time to float with their kids or friends.

 

 

From a fisheries management perspective, I know a guide in S. Alberta who has whored out a ton of rivers and I have met American guides that have come up and fished where they were shown. Guys travelling from NZ mud snail and whirling disease rivers and guys leaving to Eastern USA with didymo filled boots. I know of some smaller waters that can be fished out pretty quick! And really from the Alberta public whats easier to do- register guides or impose fishing restrictions.

Max has it right with random camping restrictions and opening more govt run campgrounds. Both would increase revenue to the AB Gov't and have a positive affect on the number of users in the system.

 

 

Nobody will pay for fish habitat enhancements without an industry being forced or a higher value being placed on the fishery (maybe by having a guide association with income info?!?).

Enforcement will not be increased without higher fisheries value.

Fish and Habitat protection will not be increased (or even continued) without people standing up and saying they value a fishery and want it protected.

 

I would suggest that you see less fisheries protection in the very near future because the fishery is seen as an impediment to development, rather than a valued resource itself.

 

There will be no better time to speak up before it is gone.

[SKIDBITCH]

Quick question....

 

I have a vehicle and sometimes I give ride to people, I do not charge them for rides. Does that make me a taxi driver? Should I get a class 2 licence? Should I get a taxi light on my vehicle?

 

Even if there was a guide association on the river, I would still take people fishing with my drift boat. I do not charge people to go. It is recreational not professional.

 

I believe a river association is a great idea but something that would manage the river. Not police recreational anglers.

[BBBrownie]

So we will all know who the established guides are, they will have numbers on their boats. Still doesn't address:

a)recreational anglers being accused of illegal guiding (how would you ever police this?) this already happens daily in BC.

b)recreational fishing by guides on days off - Harps in the system you mention there are days where a guide may have a mandatory non-float day but would be free to walk and wade- what if they are fishing with friends and floating, they will likely be harassed and accused of illegal guiding.

c)just because there is a mandatory log book doesn't mean that illegal guides will use it - See gun registry.

 

Where I do see merit is in the case of the southern foothills streams...as annoying as I feel this proposal would be for the Bow River, anything that decreases exploitation of these southern drainage's would be welcome in my mind. I would just like to see this pushed for the right reasons and to me it looks like local guides looking for exclusivity. Calgary is the primary source population of guides, many of the ideas are going to intentionally or not, be Bowcentric. I am worried this would be a losing proposition for the average angler and a waste of F&W's precious few dollars.

[BBBrownie]

Harps, I agree with your statement that a higher value must be placed on Alberta's fisheries. I also agree that income data associated with a guides association may help to put a hard value on the fishery when combined with other monetary inputs, but what if it doesn't change a thing and suddenly we have wasted many F&W $ to develop a system that doesn't result in protection of anything and really just loses habitat value due to those dollars having been diverted funding away from other important projects that may have actually been having a positive impact. I think it would only be feasible and an acceptable level of risk if funding were completely self contained and fully contingent on guide license dollars. I just don't know if there are enough active guides in Alberta to generate sufficient $ for initial startup and research into the program.

[WaderGal]

I do think there should be a Guides association, here is why:

1. you can apply for grants to pay for environmental clean up projects at put in/take out points (ie: police mans' Flats it's totally disgusting)

2. you can apply for grants or petition the government to pay for toilet facilities at popular put in/take out points

3. you can become members of other associations that will help your causes with funding or letter writing support.

4. you can set proper standards for safety and good practices for your activity

5. You can have a website that can educate the public, market and advertise for companies, and showcase your achievements as an organization.

6. you can set a limit on how many guides there are on the water at once. The river is just too busy some days!

 

There are so many other good reasons to do this, I can't believe it has not been done already. Clients want to know they are in good hands. I know there is a lot of word of mouth and repeat customers for you, but for new potential customers this could bring them in.

I have always wondered how a high paying client for a guided trip feels when they are dropped off/picked up at put in locations along the river that are totally gross with no toilets or garbage facilities. I'm thinking that high class clients might appreciate "clean" put in/take out locations. I know I would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pkk]

Guides on all rivers have it way to good. They get away with raping a public resource without putting anything back into the system. A product that they sell and dont have to pay anything for?????Can you imagine the bow without any guides. Or any other river for that matter. It would be great, take a lot of pressure off the rivers, and give some room at the put ins and take outs. Maybe all guides should pay a fee to use the public boat launches ( seem to be very crowded) . This whole illegal guiding thing is a crock of shiz. Who really cares? Only the guides, cause they feel that money is being stolen from them. Why is that something the government should enforce?

Maybe all guide operations should be taxed differently. It is all take take attitude from the guiding community. How about some payback.

And Riley, now that you are a guide up north you have given away all rights to fish legally with any friends up there. Which is huge. All brought on by the guides themselves because of the illegal guiding worries.

 

Sorry if I pissed off all my guiding buddies.

PK