It's A Big River

[dube]

Nevermind Jeremie, the adults are talking.

[bowbonehead]

So anyway Dune sorry about your rod, glad you got a loaner and caught a few fish now what were we talking about.

[duanec]

[Bigtoad]

@ Bigtoad

 

Im not bitching about anything, Im just not blind to the impact it's had. Its my thoughts and I knew I would get flamed, its how things work! Everyone new and young gets there panties in a bunch, its just how it goes. Im not going to get all uptight and say your a jerk for ripping me, I just dont care. You clearly have not seen the change since the website started up. I have also talked to a few higher ranking memeber on this site, people that have been around for awhile and its always the same conversation. "Man I wish I could go back and start this over" "Geez I feel partially responsible for whats gone around here" etc. so do I. Its always the same content. I believe were Im coming from is correct Ive heard to many people say the exact same thing. You just wont hear it here because no one wants to wreck the good standing and get flamed like me! Funny enough as well most of the people I new or know dont even frequent this site anymore, its more or less just guys like you that want to be in there good with the majority. Anyways bro, you went way to far with your flame. I wasnt talking about the Livingstone, random campers or driving a hybrid lol (how does thast even get brought up). It was a comment directed at the Bow river and the increase since the website started to grow. Im not sure were you are coming from but there is nothing about this site that states trying to fix a problem as a matter fact by your post there isnt one is there?

 

Whataniceguy, perhaps I shouldn't have lumped you in with twobyfour (he was the one lamenting the Livingstone) but you both seemed to be preaching from the same pulpit: this site starting = the degradation of fishing in Alberta.

 

I think that is an unfair statement and that 1. you're giving way too much credit to this website and 2. you're not giving nearly enough credit to those members on it.

 

The original post that we've successfully hijacked wasn't about an overcrowded river, but a guide and his client(s) who totally neglected fishing etiquette. The Bow and other rivers being busy is just a fact of life now whether you want to blame this site for it or not. I don't think the issue is crowding but about the education of those fishermen that are fishing. As for educating fishermen, not only on techniques but also on the do's and don'ts of fishing etiquette, I believe this site is doing a great job.

 

More people on the rivers is going to mean more idiots too. If it wasn't for this site, I and many of the other people on it, may have been the idiots fishing someone's run and stepping on their rod. It's only through educating the ignorant that we can improve behavior. You can either keep all of the "secret" areas, and flies, and techniques, and proper behavior to yourself and hoard it or help others to improve as well and maybe improve your experience on the river too. Or you can just say screw it and walk a few miles so you can find some solitude which seems like that's what you really want anyway.

 

I continue to come to this site because I want to learn and become less ignorant; perhaps the people you know don't come here anymore because they've decided to stop learning? Too bad...

[whataniceguy]

That's a matter of perception, and I know many many long time Bow fishers who would strongly disagree with that statement.

 

 

 

But complaining about it sure is fun, right? Yet, in future posts you do propose solutions (rod days, limiting guides?) So are you a cynic or an optimist?

 

 

 

Sure about that?

 

 

 

whataniceguy, you seem to think that its some sort of badge of honor to being "flamed". Like you're standing up and defending some time honored principle, like its some sort of heroic act. Actually, 2 things (1) its just your perception (see Dave Jensen reply), and (2) I think you like the attention - if I am wrong then say so - by playing the victim by declaring people are flaming you. Actually, its just that...wait...we disagree. I don't think that qualifies as "flaming"

 

 

 

Frankly, I think it would simply foolish not to agree with you here. Of course its quite likely this website has contributed to the attention the Bow gets (and some other waters). The disagreement lies in the matter of degree and blame. For some reason, you seem incredibly fixated on this site and assigning a massively disproportionate amount of the blame on FFC. I think it strikes many of us as...silly.

 

 

 

More of the "hero" syndrome, imho. Don't confuse flame with disagreement. Its perfectly reasonable to have an opinion, whether it "agrees" with "majority" or not, but its also reasonable that all opinions can be challenged, especially those that can be attributed to first person bias and confirmation bias. Stated differently, do you have anything resembling fact that would link the "rise" of the FFC to the crowding and/or lack of etiquette on the Bow?

 

 

 

No one is infringing on your right to speak your mind. You know its funny how people use the word ignorant. Its either use in a general, vague sense to insult other people, or it can be used correctly, as in not having knowledge towards a particular subject matter. Example: "Smitty is completely ignorant of the skills and techniques required for brain surgery. Completely, totally 100% ignorant".

 

So am I ignorant for seeing the issue in a different light? Are you ignorant for assigning so much blame to one single website? Either we're both guilty of ignorance, or neither. Depends if you correlate ignorance to perception, opinion, and bias.

 

The major context of this reply is to say that I disagree with your perception of flaming, I think most people can agree to disagree without the fights and letting it get personal, and if it stays impersonal then no problem, yes?

 

Cheers,

Smitty

 

 

100% im not complaining, its my opinion and that of many others. I'm not tryng to get flamed but it almost seems impossible to voice your thoughts and not get flamed. I voiced my opinion, said I would probably get flamed for it and I did. I dont hate the website, Im simply stating that it has affected the numbers more than most are willing to admit themselves, nobody wants to feel responsible right. I also admitted that I feel partially responsible. Everyone needs to backup and relax, not everything about this website is SUPER EXELLENT there are issues with everything all the time it just doesmt matter. I can talk or discuss problems and other perceptions and not make it personal. Stating this website has affected #'s is not a PERSONAL ATTACK on anyone but then I get personally attacked for saying it. I dont think your response is a personal attack on me, Im not going to come back and start fighting with you, just like I didnt come back and start fighting with bigtoad aftre being flamed by him or her or whoever. Alot of people are real touchy around here!

[whataniceguy]

Whataniceguy, perhaps I shouldn't have lumped you in with twobyfour (he was the one lamenting the Livingstone) but you both seemed to be preaching from the same pulpit: this site starting = the degradation of fishing in Alberta.

 

I think that is an unfair statement and that 1. you're giving way too much credit to this website and 2. you're not giving nearly enough credit to those members on it.

 

The original post that we've successfully hijacked wasn't about an overcrowded river, but a guide and his client(s) who totally neglected fishing etiquette. The Bow and other rivers being busy is just a fact of life now whether you want to blame this site for it or not. I don't think the issue is crowding but about the education of those fishermen that are fishing. As for educating fishermen, not only on techniques but also on the do's and don'ts of fishing etiquette, I believe this site is doing a great job.

 

More people on the rivers is going to mean more idiots too. If it wasn't for this site, I and many of the other people on it, may have been the idiots fishing someone's run and stepping on their rod. It's only through educating the ignorant that we can improve behavior. You can either keep all of the "secret" areas, and flies, and techniques, and proper behavior to yourself and hoard it or help others to improve as well and maybe improve your experience on the river too. Or you can just say screw it and walk a few miles so you can find some solitude which seems like that's what you really want anyway.

 

I continue to come to this site because I want to learn and become less ignorant; perhaps the people you know don't come here anymore because they've decided to stop learning? Too bad...

 

Fine man learn all you thats great. Solitude and long walks isnt what Im after I never said that, were does that come from. I stated my opinion about the site affecting #'s I wasnt whinning about my spot getting poached or complaining about to many people out there and Im not dumb enough to think that there are any secret spots either so Im not sure what your content comes from. I feel like I can come here ask a question and recieve knowledge. There has been alot of comments from people on this site mentioning that awesome members from back in the day dont come around anymore because of how goofy it gets, I mention it and all of a sudden you label people that stop coming here as non learners, you are exactly whats wrong with this site. You make it personal and cause tension because of someone elses point of view. Just for the record, some of the people I mentioned that dont come here anymore were some of the most knowledgeable and skilled fly anglers Ive ever met and or fished with!

 

Your right about one thing man, more people means more idiots out there, I think thats kinda how this whole thing got started.

[whataniceguy]

I say we all carry one of these

 

 

Water Balloon Power Toss launcher

 

back off or get wet.

 

 

Het were can I get one of those things

[Bigtoad]

Fine man learn all you thats great. Solitude and long walks isnt what Im after I never said that, were does that come from. I stated my opinion about the site affecting #'s I wasnt whinning about my spot getting poached or complaining about to many people out there and Im not dumb enough to think that there are any secret spots either so Im not sure what your content comes from. I feel like I can come here ask a question and recieve knowledge. There has been alot of comments from people on this site mentioning that awesome members from back in the day dont come around anymore because of how goofy it gets, I mention it and all of a sudden you label people that stop coming here as non learners, you are exactly whats wrong with this site. You make it personal and cause tension because of someone elses point of view. Just for the record, some of the people I mentioned that dont come here anymore were some of the most knowledgeable and skilled fly anglers Ive ever met and or fished with!

 

Your right about one thing man, more people means more idiots out there, I think thats kinda how this whole thing got started.

 

Well whataniceguy, I guess the only thing left to say is, "Yes, well, I’m polymerized tree sap and you’re an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns to its original trajectory and adheres to you."

 

Cheers.

[Harps]

My last letter to the minister on this subject (pressure)... Sent in early 2008.

 

Dear Mr. Morton and Mrs. Ady,

 

I have a couple of questions about the regulations (or lack of) around the fishing guide industry.

First off, I am an Albertan born and raised. My family homesteaded in south western Alberta at the end of the 1800's. We still ranch the same lands. I am an avid angler, leaning towards fly-fishing the foothills of southern Alberta.

 

Over the past few years, I'm sure associated with the industry boom in Alberta; I have seen a large increase in the number of guides on Alberta rivers. Many of these guides have British Columbia, Idaho, and Montana license plates on their vehicles. Many are from Alberta. A quick internet search finds many guides offering trips to Alberta's Rivers searching for the threatened bull trout, the soon to be listed as endangered westslope cutthroat trout, and other wild trout in scenic places.

 

Lately on fishing trips I have noticed an increase of crowding and random camping along rivers. I have also noticed a lack of etiquette among people on the river and an increase in garbage. Recently, I had a guide literally race with his clients to a pool I was fishing towards, only a hundred feet away. I have also seen some serious miss-handling of fish, too long out of the water, laid in the sand or on the rocks, dropped in boats, and just tossed back into the water. These fish have a lower chance of surviving then properly released fish.

 

From these past experiences, I have some questions:

 

1. How many guides are operating in Alberta south of the Bow River, and how many clients do they take out each year? If the Alberta government doesn't know this, how can the government manage the fishery? Are there limits to the number of guides that can use an area or times that they can use an area?

 

2. Why are guides not required to be licensed in Alberta? Are there issues with business insurance and ethics (because they are a business operating on crown land, representing tourism in Alberta)?

 

3. Guides operate on crown land (forestry and parks) and make money on a public resource (Charging from $300-$600 per person per trip). Fishing is also a consumptive use of the resource. Do guides have to pay access fees, royalties, or anything of the sort? They make a lot of money from a public resource and should contribute to the maintenance of that resource.

 

4. Researchers have ethics to follow while handling animals, fish included. Qualified Aquatic Environmental Specialists under Alberta's Water Act need a licence to collect fish, even if they are released. Why can a guide without a license (business or fishing) take an inexperienced client out to the river and handle fish? Is there some sort of fish handling course that can be made mandatory?

 

I am worried that the fishing experience in Alberta is going to suffer a major drop of quality due largely to the lack of proper people (tourist and resident) management. With 1 million people living in the Calgary area, and the ease of access to most of southern Alberta Rivers, something has to be done to preserve the quality of our fishing. It is already difficult to fish in peace with the rampant random camping and off-highway vehicle use on the east slopes (the provincial campgrounds are empty though).

 

For the most part, southern Alberta has an excellent fishery. Fisheries management and habitat management are a little reactive, but have done an excellent job (in spite of their budgets) in maintaining a quality fishing experience that is talked about around the world.

 

On a final note, I'll offer a kudos' to those fisheries managers (Jim Stelfox, Daryl Wig, and Terry Clayton) that have done a great job in improving and maintaining an excellent fishery that is enjoyed by countless people in southern Alberta.

 

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to a response.

 

Sincerely,

 

Outside of sites like this, guides are in an excellent position to teach people proper ethics around fishing.

 

Maybe we need a better system of regulating the "teachers"?

 

Maybe everybody here should send a letter to the minister asking for their suggested solutions?

[Jayhad]

3. Guides operate on crown land (forestry and parks) and make money on a public resource (Charging from $300-$600 per person per trip). Fishing is also a consumptive use of the resource. Do guides have to pay access fees, royalties, or anything of the sort? They make a lot of money from a public resource and should contribute to the maintenance of that resource.

 

That's a pretty big stretch isn't it? I understand that "a lot" is relative but at the extreme high end, if a guide does 100 days x$600 = $60,000 in my books that's a far cry from "a lot" of money. I would be surprised if after expenses to see if guides are making more then $50,000 and we haven't factored in taxes. I think there are a lot more "fish to fry" out there for the govt..... like handymen/carpenters.

[reevesr1]

I once thought about guiding when I was a younger man. One does not need to be a math or business wizard to figure out that you will in no way "make a lot of money"!

 

 

[Harps]

Okay... all of the money made guiding is made on the basis of pursuing prey that is a public resource.

Plus- $50-60k a year for only 100 days work is a lot of money to the majority of Canadians.

I know guiding isn't a big money maker for Albertans, especially relative to our lifestyle and expectations with O&G money floating around.

 

Point being that a guide assn or business taxes from guiding should go towards conservation and enforcement. That could happen if guides were recognized in the province. There are a lot of uneducated assholes abusing the resource, some of them guides; the rest of us assholes could benefit if anglers were being taught right.

 

[duanec]

[Jayhad]

Point being that a guide assn or business taxes from guiding should go towards conservation and enforcement.

 

 

I couldn't agree more with you, but so should license fees and hows that going. If a guides association gets traction in Alberta those that have $$$$$$ to be made will win out not the casual angler or the uneducated. Sorry

[Giovanne]

I once thought about guiding when I was a younger man. One does not need to be a math or business wizard to figure out that you will in no way "make a lot of money"!

 

I don't know one guide that does it, or got into it "to make alot of money"

[navigud]

Its hard to believe... well not really, it looks like only 3 people read the original post, the only topic that hasn`t been brought up is global warming, but then again sundance hasn`t posted on this thread. congrats to all the hijackers, job well done.

[Guest Jeremie]

Nevermind Jeremie, the adults are talking.

 

While you guys are "talking" Im going to go and watch nervous waters, metalhead and rise. Then i will go and stare at the ice till it thaws, and then maybe you guys will be done Beating the same drum.

 

Now... please continue i am getting a good laugh out of this.

[whataniceguy]

Well whataniceguy, I guess the only thing left to say is, "Yes, well, I’m polymerized tree sap and you’re an inorganic adhesive, so whatever verbal projectile you launch in my direction is reflected off of me, returns to its original trajectory and adheres to you."

 

Cheers.

 

 

I'll go with that lol!

[Hawgstoppah]

I don't know one guide that does it, or got into it "to make alot of money"

 

I completely agree 100% with Giovanne on that. Someone check hell. I think it just froze over.

 

If guides were in it to make money "abusing the precious resources", there would be no guides. In fact, a LOT (dare a say a VERY high percentage) of the people getting off their asses and actually DOING something about it, are guides. Guides care GREATLY about the resource. If your told 100 Bow river guides that tommorow some trucking company was going to back up a truck full of fish killing chemicals at the Glenmore boat launch and dump it in the Bow, you'd have 100 people laying in front of the truck.

 

Sure some guides lack ettiquite. I bet at some point ALL guides have inadvertently caused someone to feel crowded or not treated right. And I bet 99% of guides would be very apologetic and try to change what they did that you percieved to be wrong. Remember everyone has their own definations of "too close" and while I may be across the river from you and choose to cast into the run (which I feel is OK)... perhaps YOU don't. You never know, right?

 

I'd hope people could get along a bit better and talk... the best way to avoid issues on the river is to chat. The problem stems from the folks that do not chat to other fisherman on the river. For example.. (married men listen up) if your wife or significant other wants you to act a certain way does she always say it? How do you feel when you get in sh*t for not doing something you had no idea was expected of you? LET THE OTHER GUY KNOW WHERE YOUR GOING AND WHERE YOU WANT TO FISH. Almost every time there will be an amicable solution to splitting the water.

 

When people don't talk to me, I feel I have a right to get pretty damn pissed off at them especially if they step right in on me. I got flamed on the old FFA message board for such an incident, but it looks like it's time to speak out instead of getting stepped on all the time. Getting stepped on by someone who isn't willing to talk to you before stepping into your space? GIVE THEM HELL!!!

 

Cheers.

[Hawgstoppah]

$50-60k a year for only 100 days work

 

subtract insurance.

subtract flies/tippet/rods/terminal tackle

subtract provided lunches

subtract gas

subtract boat + depreciation thereof

subtract vehicle + depreciation thereof

subtract advertising costs

subtract accounting costs

subtract website associated costs

subtract camping fees

subtract vehicle / boat repairs / maintenance

subtract storage costs

subtract shuttle fees

 

add hundreds upon hundreds of hours put in on the other days not guiding.

 

and it all works out to about 8 bucks an hour or less.

 

at least it did according to my last full season running my own guiding company.

 

I am not trying to prove you wrong but presenting the other side. After properly doing your books as a guide, you'll see that you only MAKE about 15,000 a summer (6 months). This is below Canada's poverty line. Guides do it becuase they love the sport, and the lifestyle.

[WETDUCK]

Quack quack ^^

[Harps]

subtract insurance. -I'd imagine many guides don't have anything specially, plus insurance is something many pay (everybody needs personal vehicle insurance). A formal guide assn could make this (what you already pay) mandatory. Wouldn't it be nice to guide on a fair and level ground with everybody else who makes money from owning a boat in Calgary?

 

subtract flies/tippet/rods/terminal tackle - Yep, but how many guides provide this always?

 

subtract provided lunches - I agree, its a cost.

 

subtract gas - yep a cost again

 

subtract boat + depreciation thereof - for floating guides... How many Calgaryians get into guiding, because they have a boat? If not, it's a good way to write of the GST on a boat. Otherwise same cost as anybody else not guiding who bought a boat.

 

subtract vehicle + depreciation thereof - yep a cost again and one that just about everybody with a personal vehicle not guiding for fishing pays (Look at Barry White's vehicles and you see it doesn't have to be a big cost). Plus- no buisiness write offs.

 

subtract advertising costs - yep a cost but could be dirt cheap

 

subtract accounting costs- yep a cost again, assuming you do the taxes with guiding as an additional income. Plus it's not unusual for others to have accountants

 

subtract website associated costs - Otherwise know as advertising

 

subtract camping fees - Really? Free random camping for bush stuff, meals the same as anybody else.

 

subtract vehicle / boat repairs / maintenance - yep a cost again, the same as anybody else not guiding who has a vehicle and boat.

 

subtract storage costs- yep a possible cost, but only if you need to pay for storage, the same as anybody else.

 

subtract shuttle fees- yep a cost again if you need a shuttle (or even float). Bigger guide outfits may have this covered. I've seen BC guides using taxis on the Oldman River below the dam.

 

add hundreds upon hundreds of hours put in on the other days not guiding. - recognized, tying, cleaning, and whatnot... part of the job? Yes, how many hours does it add that non-guides don't do also?

 

and it all works out to about 8 bucks an hour or less. - after costs are factored in?

 

Okay, let me work this out, let me know if my price guesses are off... $300 a day for a guided trip; $25/hr (12hr day); $150 for daily supplies; $50 for shuttle; that's $100 left for the day or about $8.30/hour. On a $300, 12hr float trip, not including tip. Assuming there is $200 a day spent. That's close to what many folks make (before and after taxes), and still have to pay for insurance/storage/maintenance/etc (but work 5-7 days a week). So $100 per day for 100 days is $10,000 after very expensive daily costs. Take home? Minus house payment, food, bills, insurance, etc and yes it does look thin... certainly not below poverty line, as that is based on a before taxes annual income, but it is thin. And I'm sure 100 guide days is on the top end.

Make that 30 guide days for folks that have the summer off their regular work (teachers, etc) or who guide on weekends, and that's $3000 (after costs) on top of their regular jobs for summer work, plus they probably already had the boat and have storage and don't claim the taxes. And these guys may just be looking for extra money, not caring about the resource as much, or not caring if they take people to areas that they don't fish as much. Plus it's (possibly) inferior competition in a market with no rules regarding who can claim to be a guide with real experience (wasn't there just a tread on experience?). A guide association makes it fair for folks who want guide for the lifestyle and the sport.

 

at least it did according to my last full season running my own guiding company. - You offered an excellent service for well below the normal rate.

 

I am not trying to prove you wrong but presenting the other side. After properly doing your books as a guide, you'll see that you only MAKE about 15,000 a summer (6 months). This is below Canada's poverty line. Guides do it becuase they love the sport, and the lifestyle.

 

Geez... I'm not saying guides make tons of money, just that it is tied to the resource. I realize many guides think they do it for the sport and lifestyle... and I'm sure they realize they shouldn't be in it for money, but people generally put in as little effort possible to make the most money they can. If lifestyle wasn't an imporant part of it, everybody would have sold out all the good spots on the river and you would find guides taking clients everywhere (that couldn't happen, could it?)... Of course guides from BC are coming here because they have to for the $$, as they don't have rod days left in their own province.

(BTW the income that was posted (not by me) is well over the poverty line. You must have missed my starting a fight thingy which should have indicated more sarcasm. I have no real clue what I guide makes, but I was curious.)

I didn't want this to get into a guiding direction... but, well you can see above.

 

My point was that guides are the perfect venue to teach anglers ethics and ettiquite on the river. (it was buried in there, but addresses the first post about ettiqute)

 

Brian, I'm sure that sports with you learn a ton after a trip. I'm sure that with most guides the sports are better off. BUT there are many guides that just have a summer off and decide to accept money to take people to fishing holes.

 

If guides have to pay taxes (same as everybody else) why not have those taxes go back to the fishery. I'm not saying charge guides a "royalty" to use the resource. I'm saying register the guides so we know haw many there are and where they operate, and ensure that they are qualified... just like Montana does (and there is no guide hardships down there... in fact Montana guides are operating in Alberta on at least 2 Rivers... as are BC guides on many rivers in the Crowsnest Pass).

 

 

 

And, the only posts that go anywhere are hijacked posts.

[Harps]

Or I could just have said...

Suck it up, Princess... Guides have a great job doing what they love to do. It's a lifestyle choice over money, and if they don't like it they should just quit and leave the whinning to the people who don't have the time to fish because they don't have the skill to be guides and have to sit in an office (or on a rig) to make a living.

 

[duanec]

the only posts that go anywhere are hijacked posts.

:Hi jack: + :derby racer: * ( + ) / - * ( + ) =

[SilverDoctor]

Yep there where no crowds on the water in the old days. Still think the bow is crowded?