Logging The Castle Area This Summer

[alan2]

Yep, word has it Spray Lks sawmills are going in to collect more of the toothpicks they continue to harvest from the eastern slopes and pass off as timber, to the detriment of the Castle area this time.

 

I spend a good part of vacation in that area and I am saddened to think of what this means. This "Special status" designation it has is a real joke. Nothing more than window dressing to appease the crowds yet allow ATV use, logging, drilling etc the same as anywhere else. Last July there was an all night downpour and it turned the south castle into mud, but I drove up past the ski area to a lovely green meadow and the West Castle was still just as clear and fishable as ever. However, once they chew up the hillsides and clearcut them that will put an end to that. I think it might have been Klein and that hypocritical Minister of Environment he had (yeah, Kowalski I believe) that set that all up. Or was it Getty? After awhile they all seem to be cut from the same cloth anyway.

 

I suppose they are doing it with the justification of curtailing pine beetle. Too bad it doesn't even work that effectively though, you only have to go to areas west of Prince George to see that and they were logging the hell out if it a few years ago. And the lumber market hasn't yet recovered from the downturn anyway. What a shame. Castle wilderness special places R.I.P.

 

 

[ÜberFly]

As if the all the riff raff, quaders, etc. wasn't bad enough!!

 

A sad day indeed!!

 

P

[Harps]

Have you sent letters of concern to the local MLA's and the Minsiter of SRD (Mel Knight)?

[alan2]

Have you sent letters of concern to the local MLA's and the Minsiter of SRD (Mel Knight)?

 

 

No, but I would have if I'd seen it coming. From what I read this is a done deal and is beyond any point of soliciting public input. Just the way Ab Gov't likes it to be.

[jones]

before someone gets all pissy, i am not a large fan of logging but what is the alternative when we put out every forest fire that comes along. you let fires burn or you log in a controlled manner. our forests cant life forever because its not healthy or natural. our forests are pine, spruce and fir and short lived. if they grow too long they become vulnerable to pests and fire. yet we keep putting the fires out. there are no such thing as an old growth forest here in alberta so what is it we want. the natural thing to do would be let fires burn uncontrolled and too bad to anyone with a home or recreational property in the way. is that what we want. probably not to popular

 

there is no easy answer. logging is part of long term management of forests especially since we are hell bent on putting out fires

[DaveJensen]

before someone gets all pissy, i am not a large fan of logging but what is the alternative when we put out every forest fire that comes along. you let fires burn or you log in a controlled manner. our forests cant life forever because its not healthy or natural. our forests are pine, spruce and fir and short lived. if they grow too long they become vulnerable to pests and fire. yet we keep putting the fires out. there are no such thing as an old growth forest here in alberta so what is it we want. the natural thing to do would be let fires burn uncontrolled and too bad to anyone with a home or recreational property in the way. is that what we want. probably not to popular

 

there is no easy answer. logging is part of long term management of forests especially since we are hell bent on putting out fires

@ Jones - as a point of clarification, there most certainly are old growth forests in Alberta. Our ecosystems are different, meaning different succession, different species of vegetation, etc. Lodgepole pine that blanket our foothill forests generally mature in the 60 to 90 year range and there are still many stands that have 150 to 200+ yr old pine. By definition, that's old growth and any ecologist will support that notion due to the fl/fauna that exist in such forests. The other issues - the increased access to the remnants of our wilderness by o/g and logging, as well as surface runoff dumping 2 to 20 times the annual sediment load into our rivers and streams. Note I wouldn't disagree with anything else you typed.

Cheers

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

this is not new, we came through years ago and logged the crap out of everything and replanted so we could do it again later.

If we had not replanted all the same tree then we might not have had this pine beetle problem...just my 2c

[Harps]

alan- nothing is a done deal when a minister is involved.

Where did you learn about the logging? I haven't heard about it and can't find any info.

 

jones,

Logging can be done in a enviro healthy way and Dave hit on the other points. Spray Lakes have been decent operators and know how to do things right. Spray Lake Operating Rules

 

But

 

If West Castle is hom,e to a bunch of vulnerable Grizzlies, provides most of the water for the Oldman, houses rare plants, and most importantly is the location of increasingly threatened bull trout and west slope cutthroat trout populations, shouldn't more thought be put into this (Land-use framework isn't done, were concerned folks consulted, what was the original harvest plan, isn't the C5 plan on hold, etc etc)?

Unlike natural pests and fire, the logging industry builds roads which disturb wildlife, allow access, degrade water quality, and change the habitat type and the equipment is loud and causes rutting damage as well as increases the risk of hydro carbon spills.

 

The other extremely discouraging thing is that a plan to protect the Castle area (as an open use type park) has been submitted to the Alberta Government.

Submission to protect the Castle

 

Alberta Parks encouraging tourism investment (I don't like this, but its a dollar value on the area):

History of Castle

 

Overall, I hope that there is a bit of a moritorium until it is known whart is happening in the area, and I hope that the MLA's push for protection. Maybe they realize the Castle provides most of the water for the towns downstream (Pincher, Lethbridge, etc).

[snuffy]

The whole "fire control is altering net fire frequency" thing is a red herring. Simple fact is that the sort of fires that burn significant areas are impossible to contain. Generally, the best you can do is to save structures and even then only sometimes. Everyone in the field has known this for some time, with the notable exception of the lunatic running the controlled burn program in the parks. But then, this is the same guy who's had two close calls with burning down Banff town site.

 

In any event, the ecological consequences of logging and fire are not comparable.

[alan2]

I just heard on another outdoors forum that they have now started painting various trees to mark where they will log in Castle area this summer.

 

It's not too late to send an email to

Greg Weadick MLA Lethbridge westmailto:lethbridge.west@assembly.ab.ca

 

Rob Renner Minister of Environment mailto:medicine.hat@assembly.ab.ca

 

Mel Knight Minister of sustainable resource development mailto:grandeprairie.smoky@assembly.ab.ca

 

Cindy Ady Minister Tourism Parks, Recreation mailto:calgary.shaw@assembly.ab.ca

 

If enough people complained about them logging in there, they just might rethink it. Or else go unpaint the trees... That would be work though.

[cuttbow]

Go for a walk off the road on the FTR.Oldman,dutch When ya hit the sign regal creek stop walk into the bush and have a look.Big piles of crap everywhere.This has been at least 10 years and i cant find no plantings.But they did leave a strip along the road so you cant see the mess they left.

[LastBoyScout]

I read the history of the Castle but I didn't see a couple of events I'm privy to. I met a real old guy years ago up on the Lost Creek and he was kind enough to share a bunch of info with me most of it I'll only be sharing with trusted blood relatives on my death bed. The rest was about early intrusions into the Carbondale Castle area, most of it I confirmed by following his leads to the places they dragged the saw mills to at various site around the mountains and set them up, only cut lumber was hauled to Blairmore then. He was a gem and his information led to many wonderful adventures. He told me both valleys were extensivly logged in 1919ish and again in the 50's. Certainly pristine would not apply. I personally remember the last pine beatle thing in the early 80's when there was a ton of lumber taken out of the B. Mines Lake and West and South Castle area. Use it or loose it. We need to make sure its done as responsibly as possible.

[canadagrey]

How many of you attended one of the South Saskatchewan Land Use Framework meetings held in Southern Alberta Last Fall. The locations were on a previous thread here. This was one of your many opportunities to provide public input. How many have written their MLA (He needs to talk to the minister to ensure it gets cabinet attention), The SRD Minister and the Premier?

:derby racer:

If your answer is None of the Above, Quit your Bitching and Do Something About It. Although discussing it here creates some awareness, it doesn't solve the problem. We're preaching to the converted.

[alan2]

An update to this: Here is a link to a map of Castle River area showing where they plan to log in phase 1. And it isn't way back somewhere outta sight either...

 

http://stopcastlelogging.wordpress.com/

[Harps]

Anybody at this last rally against the logging?

 

http://www.630ched.com/Channels/LocalNews/...aspx?ID=1283889

[Taco]

No were you?

 

If the logging is stopped what about controlled burns??

[Harps]

 

New letter in the Lethbridge Herald

http://www.lethbridgeherald.com/letters-to...ing-121410.html

 

Logging Castle is baffling

Tuesday, 14 December 2010 02:01 Letter to the Editor

 

That the Castle watershed has value for many is not in dispute; water, grizzlies, elk, trout, biodiversity, recreation and aesthetics to touch on a few major ones. These values are documented, verified and acknowledged.

 

Some, notably the Alberta Government contend we can have all these things and also industrial, clear-cut logging. I am skeptical. I wish they could point to some other place where this has been accomplished.

 

So the decision to log must come down to economics. As watershed residents we have to ask, "Is this decision to log in the best economic interests of Albertans and is the timber so valuable that logging trumps all other values?"

 

What seems evident, from independent assessments is the return to the province from logging the Castle amounts to less than $250,000. You could barely cover the salaries of the Forest Service staff in Blairmore for three months with that amount. That paltry amount wouldn't cover operating expenses for those staff, forest fire protection or the mounting costs to restore past industrial excesses in the region. Nor will the figure approach the cost of repairing roads subject to an estimated 3,750 loads of logs.

 

Spray Lakes Sawmills seem destined to lose money on this operation. They face a seven hour return haul from where the trees fall to their mill in Cochrane. That's a lot of diesel fuel for a few 2X4s, some fence posts and mostly bark mulch, to be spread over yards in Calgary. As an aside I would have thought our timber resource might have greater utility than a landscaping medium, perhaps even to be left in place for watershed values.

 

So the question remains, why is the Forest Service pushing this logging plan? Letters to the Minister of Sustainable Resource Development are routinely responded with The answer is we are logging the Castle; what was the question? I don't understand the economics of logging in the Castle; it appears neither does the Alberta Government. In terms of the economics alone it defies logic and reason. Worse still are the losses to other values; these have been uncalculated and ignored in this logging plan.

 

Lorne Fitch

Lethbridge

 

And, something I learned last week... there was not one fisheries biologist's (SRD-F&W, DFO, or otherwise) input into the C5 management plan!?! A plan that allows cutting in watershed that contain threatened bull trout and westslope cutthroat trout.

 

C5 plan:

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms...mentUnitC5.aspx

 

 

And Taco, no I didn't go to any of the rallies.

About the burns... I don't like them, but they are pushing hard saying that the burns are protecting infrastructure and creating wildlife habitat.

I think the access roads cause the most damage and the burns are a way of justifying budgets... strictly a personal opinion.

[BBBrownie]

New letter in the Lethbridge Herald

http://www.lethbridgeherald.com/letters-to...ing-121410.html

 

 

 

And, something I learned last week... there was not one fisheries biologist's (SRD-F&W, DFO, or otherwise) input into the C5 management plan!?! A plan that allows cutting in watershed that contain threatened bull trout and westslope cutthroat trout.

 

C5 plan:

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/ManagingPrograms...mentUnitC5.aspx

 

 

And Taco, no I didn't go to any of the rallies.

About the burns... I don't like them, but they are pushing hard saying that the burns are protecting infrastructure and creating wildlife habitat.

I think the access roads cause the most damage and the burns are a way of justifying budgets... strictly a personal opinion.

 

Great arguement from Lorne. Logging off the Castle reeks of hidden agenda. How is it possible that there hasn't been a fisheries input into this plan? Private industry would require fisheries and aquatics surveys as part of the EIA process, why is the Alberta government exempt?

[mtbkr]

I definitely agree that logging certainly has the potential to harm river ecosystems for the reasons mentioned above. I'm not well-versed on this particular proposal but what I don't understand is why the regs still permits people to keep cuthroat trout in Alberta. The West Castle, South Castle, and I believe Carbondale Rivers all have a catch limit of 2 trout. Why not strict Catch and Release?

I just recently wrote a letter to our Ministers and the Premier arguing for Catch and Release for the whole Castle System.

 

In any case I'm worried about these upper Tributaries to the Castle.

[bulltrout]

In any case I'm worried about these upper Tributaries to the Castle.

 

you're worried now; just wait till they're all clearcut...

 

and trying to get the castle system all C&R is like trying to take a baked ham away from Oprah...it just ain't gonna happen in our lifetime...i gave up after numerous BS replies from this joke of a government... :$*%&:

[Harps]

No decent answers?

[bcubed]

Great arguement from Lorne. Logging off the Castle reeks of hidden agenda. How is it possible that there hasn't been a fisheries input into this plan? Private industry would require fisheries and aquatics surveys as part of the EIA process, why is the Alberta government exempt?

 

 

The AB government has the right to not do an EIA through Section 92(A), however, the Federal Government could be compelled to do so through a lawsuit under Section 91(10) and 91(12). I don't know a thing about Law, so i would assume that someone would have to bring this forward to the Federal level before any notice would be taken.

 

It's been done before regarding Forestry, (Friends of the West Country vs Canada, 1999).

 

So really you just need an NGO to step up and take it somewhere, such as TU. Does Friends of the Oldman River still exist?

[bulltrout]

The AB government has the right to not do an EIA through Section 92(A), however, the Federal Government could be compelled to do so through a lawsuit under Section 91(10) and 91(12). I don't know a thing about Law, so i would assume that someone would have to bring this forward to the Federal level before any notice would be taken.

 

It's been done before regarding Forestry, (Friends of the West Country vs Canada, 1999).

 

So really you just need an NGO to step up and take it somewhere, such as TU. Does Friends of the Oldman River still exist?

 

TU won't push it...there busy with alternate agendas...when i was a member i recall talking about this area for years and they're more concerned about trophy lake management...if the "higher up members" had gotten off their high horse to defend the castle 2 years ago instead of pushing Police Lake, would we be in this position???

 

hence why i'm no longer a member...my angry 2 cents...

[southfisher]

TU won't push it...there busy with alternate agendas...when i was a member i recall talking about this area for years and they're more concerned about trophy lake management...if the "higher up members" had gotten off their high horse to defend the castle 2 years ago instead of pushing Police Lake, would we be in this position???

 

hence why i'm no longer a member...my angry 2 cents...

 

 

Do you really think a few fly fishermen representing a few more fly fishermen in form of Trout Unlimited would really had an effect on the logging proposal. It will go ahead regardless of what any special interest group or individual wants. This is the Alberta Conservative Gov't after all.

 

As far as the question regarding why there is still a limit on cutthroat trout? It has been proven that the cutthroats may be listed as "endangered" due to hybridization with rainbows and not over fishing. Besides all but a few isolated tribs. are no longer pure strain. You may want to be careful what you wish for. For if the argument was made to that fishing is responsible for the decline, the rivers would have to be closed to angling as even catch and release has mortality related to it.

[BBBrownie]

Do you really think a few fly fishermen representing a few more fly fishermen in form of Trout Unlimited would really had an effect on the logging proposal. It will go ahead regardless of what any special interest group or individual wants. This is the Alberta Conservative Gov't after all.

 

As far as the question regarding why there is still a limit on cutthroat trout? It has been proven that the cutthroats may be listed as "endangered" due to hybridization with rainbows and not over fishing. Besides all but a few isolated tribs. are no longer pure strain. You may want to be careful what you wish for. For if the argument was made to that fishing is responsible for the decline, the rivers would have to be closed to angling as even catch and release has mortality related to it.

 

True to an extent, but I would add that much more than "a few" pure strain populations have been confirmed. I can't recall the exact number, but I believe it is in the ballpark of 12-15. Many that are not considered "pure strain" such as livingstone fish are still often around genetically 99% westslope, but all it takes is that small rainbow influence some generations back to become a hybrid(there are Westslope in the liv system, just not the mainstem liv)...Also, rainbow hybridization isn't the only hybrid consideration at play here, in the early days of cutthroat stocking there wasn't much consideration for subpecies, or perhaps in some cases, distinguishing between subspecies in aquaculture programs - this led to yellowstone cutts being planted and interbred with westslopes...I have heard that yellowstone fish have an influence on the fish in the castle system, adding to the hybridization issue down there. This is also true of the Ram river system, both westlope and yellowstone cutts exist and are easily distinguished. There is a misconception that above ram falls on the North Ram there is only westslope cutts - Not true