Angling Guide Licensing Mtg

[Neil Waugh]

Kinda ironic, eh, that the guide heading this little process, my buddy Keith Rae, is a walleye guy who operates on the North Sask above Devon, and all you Calgary/Bow elites, who chose to ignore the Fisheries Round Table as irrelevant and beneath your dignity over the years, are now running around on this board like chickens with your heads cut off.

The impetus for a guide registry is as much a trans-border issue as anything. A little sweet revenge for the East Kootenays rod fee gouge which has a lot of the fellows, particularly from the Pass, still pretty incensed.

If guides aren't regulated then there's no way of stopping Fernie and Montana guides from doing a little cross border shopping at our expense.

The fact is that fishing guide licensing has been on the provincial statutes for years. The complacent PCs have chosen not to use it mainly because guides - not recreational anglers - didn't like it.

Now recreational anglers are rowing the Mac boat. As for all those scary, made up numbers that Dave Jensen is throwing around, giver me a break.

 

 

[Smitty]

As for all those scary, made up numbers that Dave Jensen is throwing around, giver me a break.

 

Aren't you a journalist Neil? Then no, I won't give you a break. If you have different numbers, articulate them. If you think the costs will be more, or less, than say so. But I suspect you don't have a clue, so its just as easy to poke a stick at someone else. At least Dave has the guts to recognize is numbers are arbitrary.

 

Smitty

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Meetings in Calgary on Fisheries related issues

 

If a room was needed for a meeting in Calgary, I can be PM'd. I have many contacts downtown for meetings depending upon the size, time, date etc.

 

Don't let meeting room cost/availability affect Calgary as a choice for meeting destination. As for cost...I would try and get it donated.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[trouthunter]

I'm wondering how many Alberta angling guides/outfitters have been contacted to inform them of this meeting? I believe most of them will only find out about this after the fact. Unfortunately, whoever is organizing this meeting is not doing a very good job informing all of the guides. I could be wrong, but I suspect most guides operating in this province do not follow this forum on a regular basis, if at all. Were emails or other forms of communication sent out to all operaters? Communication will be vital to ensure everyone gets on board.

[bigbowtrout]

Mr Waugh please fill us "Calgary/Bow elites" in on how it should be handled?

 

Thanks

[Smitty]

Well if, there is an opportunity to contribute at the meeting, I will raise the point about communication. But I'm given a limited amount of time, there may be other points on the pro/con side that may take priority, and precedence over the complaint of poor communication.

 

I also say this in support of what Neil and Canadenis is saying: As Dave informs us, the genesis of this meeting stems from an FRT meeting, surely which we've all had an opportunities to attend. In other words, staying in the loop - on any issue - shouldn't that require some pro-active initiative of any stakeholder to keep themselves up to date? One thing about the AB gov't: they were one of the first regional governments to embrace internet, technology, and having information available to the public via the internet. Perhaps a website can be started, articulating this issue, if the communication is so poor. We become so dependent -for better or worse- on the mainstream media to keep us in the loop, problem is, the vast majority of column space is devoted to health, education, and economy.

 

So I think it behooves us to do a little of our own digging. Brian, I think you're being totally unrealistic if you actually expect a phone call. Would the gov't do that on more "important" issues? I think not.

 

Folks, its a democracy, and sometimes it sucks. Sometimes the "suckiness" is directly correlated to your direct participation - or lack of it. Anyways, having been one of the worst offenders, I will now try to do a little small part in representing the views of this board. I know Dave J. well enough to trust that he can articulate these views coherently, but its obviously good to have a perspective of just the angling public too.

 

Smitty

 

 

[Neil Waugh]

Well Trouthunter, if you really want to find out what's going on, how about getting hold of Keith. The weather's pretty crappy up here today so I suspect he doesn't have a ride. Phone him at the house in Stony Plain. Go on his Get Hooked Fishing Adventures website.

As for Smitty's concern that I may have let my journalistic standards slip (even though the FFC forum is hardly journalism) it's my understanding that skepticism is one of the first rules of journalism. I'm simply exercising rule #1 considering nobody knowns what this thing will eventually look like. Let alone cost. Other than the fact it's time has come.

And here's another little interesting fact.

If you add up the number of guys running on Lake Athabasca, Lesser Slave, Cold Lake, Pigeon, Rocky, Grande Prairie, Hinton, the Atha-B, North Sask, Fort Mac, LeCrete, Cypress Hills, Lower Bow, the Pass, plus the northern fly-ins (the Maligne/Amethyst/Talbot guides are likely opted out) this issue may well be decided by a bunch of walleye/laker/grayling guys regardless of what the Middle Bow elites think.

Like I said earlier, ironic, eh?

[Guest phartknocker]

What's with trashing Dave and Bow River guides(site sponsors) Neil? You are going to get a useful thread pulled.

 

Just in case you have a problem http://www.edmontonaa.org/

 

Sundancefisher Kudos on trying to keep it positive.

[mnm]

I'm wondering how many Alberta angling guides/outfitters have been contacted to inform them of this meeting? I believe most of them will only find out about this after the fact. Unfortunately, whoever is organizing this meeting is not doing a very good job informing all of the guides. I could be wrong, but I suspect most guides operating in this province do not follow this forum on a regular basis, if at all. Were emails or other forms of communication sent out to all operaters? Communication will be vital to ensure everyone gets on board.

well said

[trouthunter]

Neil,

 

I realize Dave Jensen said the meeting is basically being held to see whether there's enough interest to warrant licensing guides in the province. I also know I can contact Keith anytime for information. I was only saying I doubted most of the guides/outfitters in this province are even aware of this meeting. I think there's a lot of support out there among guides, and even those who don't guide, for some form of licensing, and believe it has a better chance of coming to fruition if the majority of operators climb on board at the beginning of the journey. Finding out about a meeting at the last minute, 3 or 4 days beforehand, is not the way to get off to a good start. There are no excuses for this, only reasons. While I am in favor of licensing guides in our province, I'd like to say, "Be careful of what you ask for. You just might get it."

[duanec]

too add to that keep it positive sentiment:

this is a complex issue that's been given the dead-horse-beating treatment several times on this board. yes, several memebers have strong opinions, some are on the fence and some see both sides.

many others are maybe like me and don't feel informed enough about the issue yet.

 

i for one am very glad to hear it's getting put forward at the discussion table level, and i'd like to express thanks to those who are attempting to sorth through those strong opinions and various rants and come up with a legit list of issues and concerns to bring to the table on behalf of us who cannot make the trip north or make it on short notice.

 

i look forward to reading the report & notes from the meeting.

 

 

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Kinda ironic, eh, that the guide heading this little process, my buddy Keith Rae, is a walleye guy who operates on the North Sask above Devon, and all you Calgary/Bow elites, who chose to ignore the Fisheries Round Table as irrelevant and beneath your dignity over the years, are now running around on this board like chickens with your heads cut off.

The impetus for a guide registry is as much a trans-border issue as anything. A little sweet revenge for the East Kootenays rod fee gouge which has a lot of the fellows, particularly from the Pass, still pretty incensed.

If guides aren't regulated then there's no way of stopping Fernie and Montana guides from doing a little cross border shopping at our expense.

The fact is that fishing guide licensing has been on the provincial statutes for years. The complacent PCs have chosen not to use it mainly because guides - not recreational anglers - didn't like it.

Now recreational anglers are rowing the Mac boat. As for all those scary, made up numbers that Dave Jensen is throwing around, giver me a break.

 

Hi Neil.

 

You may just be experiencing shock insofar as people are voicing their opinions and providing excellent dialog and discussion points based upon their own personal feelings. People tend to shy away from putting their feeling in writing as often they can be ridiculed and scorned in their beliefs. That is totally unfair. There are some facts going around as well as guesses. The best thing for you to note is you are getting cooperation on this forum and I strongly feel that this avenue for input should not be over looked or belittled. I can see the value of the board either having a different thread for lobbying and regulatory discussions along with closer moderating to prevent a few poorly chosen phrases or attitude to show through. Detracting from this valuable tool would be a shame.

 

I have organized many meeting, many fishing events, many group functions including conferences and conventions and my experience says that it is often very difficult to attract the lay person to such events. They neither get paid nor can they take off work if they have a family or work commitments. While many people want deep down to participate, sometimes more than apathy gets in the way. Contrary to what some people may think...a trip to Edmonton from Calgary, Peace River, Fort Mac...etc. is a big deal and take planning, vacation time and costs money etc.

 

I believe the majority of the board loves having this opportunity to both think about, read and discuss the various issues surrounding this topic. In the future, please feel free to direct positive comments to the board for careful consideration. Our comments while free to give...can be taken away as fast as a rising trout.

 

In the future I believe we can generate a motto such as... "Discussions shall remain focused, non personal, open to free thought and outside the box thinking. People can say what they think regardless of if it will work or help as often the smallest drop of water (thought) can create a river or lake flowing with exciting fish (solution)."

 

You have some valid points such as keeping people from not getting tunnel vision and realizing there are guides and guiding operations through out Alberta From Montana's border to the Territories. Feel free to articulate your points...most people are listening and thinking about them...those that are not...will learn from the example of the rest of us.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[headscan]

The impetus for a guide registry is as much a trans-border issue as anything. A little sweet revenge for the East Kootenays rod fee gouge which has a lot of the fellows, particularly from the Pass, still pretty incensed.

Wow, if the primary motivator is revenge then all I can say is grow the **** up. That makes you sound like little kids on the playground plotting revenge because someone wouldn't let you play with their ball.

[canadagrey]

Well said headscan: I'm going to get a first hand look as I now will be attending the meeting, with an open mind. Because I'm Still

[DaveJensen]

Folks, please consider: if the licensing goes so far as to limit the cross border use of guides and follows rod allocation, then you are at the point of requiring all waters in the province upon which guiding occurs to have watershed management plans, fisheries management plans, up to date biology, public reviews, etc. I'm surprised more don't see this, don't understand how much $ outside of current budgets this kind of work costs. The required 5 yr rotation of the new RDR FMP costs are quite high once the biology and public review processes are done, which is why I've had such a bugger of a time nailing Vance down to get the RDR FMP process going the past several years - there simply isn't the staff or budgets to get work done for the RDR. So what of the Ram, Prairie, Raven, etc, etc, etc all the way down the ES?

I don't think that people realize the true cost of licensing guides, rod allocations (if it ever goes that far), etc. I would encourage everyone to truly examine the ramifications before this kind of effort begins. While the people of Alberta will never get value from guides, the flipside is that if guides were licensed with rod allocations, the biology would have to be as good as it ever has been to warrant the rod day use, and that would be an incredible place for fisheries mgt to be. Right now, as it pertains to trout streams, a low % of waters would have the proper bio data set to set rod day allocations. And how do you handle that? Do you say no guiding on all waters with no data set? Or do you carte blanche say everyone is grandfathered in on all waters and "scientifically" fudge the #s?

Nobody can put any kind of estimate on budgets, much less critique right/wrong as there is no direction as to how this is going to unfold. The $300K was tossed out as it could be very realistic. It might be less than $50K/yr. It could be much more than $300k if rod day allocations are included. As an Ab angler, I'm chewing the fat on allocations only if it means the quality bio data was required, and helps define things like identifying waters guides can and cannot operate on based on productivity vs use. Those kinds of spin off benefits to the Ab angler are important, and are an acceptable spin off impact for the $ required to carry out guide licensing. The bigger, cross impacting, long term picture is what's important, and has been my point in this all along. Those that simply read my text and don't see the bigger picture in what I type are missing my point. Neil certainly seems to have missed it.

 

Bottom line: depending on how this unfolds, it could really be expensive, and my point all along will be that there has to be more benefit to Albertans for the $ coming out of fisheries budgets than to just say guides are licensed. Spending $ to satisfy a turf war with no end benefit to Alberta anglers is insanity.

 

Meanwhile, anyone worrying about the fish in all of this?

[headscan]

Bottom line: depending on how this unfolds, it could really be expensive, and my point all along will be that there has to be more benefit to Albertans for the $ coming out of fisheries budgets than to just say guides are licensed. Spending $ to satisfy a turf war with no end benefit to Alberta anglers is insanity.

 

Meanwhile, anyone worrying about the fish in all of this?

Exactly. I think licensing would be good to ensure that guides have insurance, CPR, pay taxes on income, and the sort of thing that was mentioned earlier, but my taxes better not be going towards the escalation of a childish turf war. However, I'd rather see the money spent on reclaiming banks and habitat, enforcement, and studies like the current one on didymo.

 

Next thing you know this group of licensed guides will be building a power bloc to lobby for quality water studies like the Skeena AMP (gotta get them back for that one too, right?) that only benefit them and not the fishery or the regular angler.

[canadensis]

Well said Dave Jensen. You are one of the few "vocal" ones that sees through the BS and understands this for what it will likely end up being.

 

Folks these guides are not out there performing open heart surgery. Leave the licensing and regulatory BS for where it is needed.

 

It is funny how greed and control gets mixed up (hidden) under the guise of conservation, you certainly don't have to look far to see this in action.

[Neil Waugh]

Dave, if you think this discussion is all about getting some kind of exclusivity on the RDR, as much as you may (or maybe not) want it, then you're getting way up ahead of yourself. Likewise your dubious cost estimates.

I believe I've attended all the Fisheries Management Roundtables and rod days have never come up. In fact the fish-o-crats at the April meeting recommended no action on guide licensing claiming the guiding community showed little interest.

But some of the guys from the Pass objected and after what I recall was a pretty overwhelming show of hands Keith's committee was created. (Meaning a lot of Fish and Gamers and TU reps supported it.)

Mainly because he was the only guide in the room due to the on-going problem of Calgary apathy. Even though there was a move to form a Bow River guides outfit a few years back.

Since then the roundtable has been axed as part of Morton's budget busting measures (heck, even the website has mysteriously gone missing).

I wish Gary or some of the other Blairmore guys would come on and present their case rather than the guide gang-up that appears to be taking place now.

So don't shoot me, I'm just the fly on the wall. Although I did vote for the registry.

 

 

 

[wtforward]

Quote :I believe I've attended all the Fisheries Management Roundtables and rod days have never come up.

In fact the fish-o-crats at the April meeting recommended no action on guide licensing

claiming the guiding community showed little interest. End Quote:

 

 

Neil I am probably taking this out of context but why does there need to be an interest

from the guiding community to be licensed? I thought the guiding issue was coming

from concerns expressed by the non-guide community.

 

As a side note if you want to see the other side of guides take a look at

the recommendations coming out of Skeena AMP. The self serving greed

is over the top in my view.

 

[Neil Waugh]

That was the point made to the bureaucrats, licensing guides is not meant to become a Guides Union. Quite the opposite.

It's so their activities can be regulated for a whole lot of obvious reasons. Including the BC guides running in Alberta while protecting their little classified waters scam.

The Skeena rip-off being the latest example.

[DaveJensen]

Neil, if you attended the initial AOAA meetings or the FOAA meetings leading up to the apparent apathetic guide showing at the FRT mtgs, you'd likely be a touch more educated as to what has been discussed. It seems that you have a history of doing what you are attempting to do here, throw darts in hopes one sticks, to ces out a conflict. It's funny to watch you through the years on forums, needling points and people, trying get a response, then when you get called out you ignore it and circle the other side of the wagon hoping the cowboy riding shotgun reacts. So it goes with you it seems. Some among us are honestly trying to figure out a way to make process work for the betterment of the resource users, in hopes that the end result is a best fit for the resource itself. There are many issues wrapped up in this one issue, each will have ramifications, and those involved need to address them as proactively as possible, to use that end vision to develop those arms if possible. If you can't see that perhaps take a step back a minute before you type anything else. Also, perhaps you can begin to support the process with progressive ideas? I haven't seen that angle from you yet.

Cheers everyone.

 

PS - the Crow fished so-so yesterday until 2 hrs before sunset then turned on in a big way, for me anyway. Boy, fishing sure is fun.

[Smitty]

Yes, guides should be licensed. All of them.

 

Not read the posts here. Maybe this was covered. Someone mention guides from the USA.

 

There are reported to be MT guides on rivers in SW Alberta. I am pretty sure this is fact.

 

Harps will know this. Are they not breaking immigration and employment laws by working here in the first place without proper work permits? (Nothing to do with fishing regs.) And bet a dollar if they were investigated they'd simply say they'd come up to Canada with friends and they are not guiding. Pretty sure that would be their response.

 

So they could still do the same thing right? i.e. not be licensed. They are not advertising up here so know one could really know if they are guiding or fishing with their Merkan friends. I see this as a big loophole. Dave Jensen and Vic would have to be licensed because we know 'em. But we don't know some Montana Bubba Guide do we? So we get nailed four times over this.

1) An American guide takes money out of the pockets of Canadian guides.

2) The money leaves Canada.

3) He pays no taxes on that income, and

4) Uses our resource free of charge to make money. Nonsense. Dave ya listening?) )

 

The one that really pisses me off is that a guide from BC can make money here and not even have a fishing license ... he can guide for absolutely free. (Provided he is not fishing he does not need a fishing license.) That is simply wrong. Think about it. We are subsidizing (via license fees) a guide from BC (or any other place) so he can make money here. Huh?!

 

Cheers!

 

Clive

 

Additional monies shouldn't come from the fisheries dept... they should come from the Employment and Immigration deptn (Labour codes and standards).

 

Look, is the above points by Clive and Harps not valid though. Forget the the emotionalism of "lets get them"; its not about revenge, and while I can only speak for myself, I'm way over the EKoot.MP.

 

So Dave, I'm just asking the question here. Do you not see (primarily) that the regulation and licensing of non-resident guides as part of this issue? I'm not talking about rod day allocation, just the basics of the basics. Surely if we regulate AB resident guides, there must be, by de facto, some form of regulating non-resident guides? I understand this a grade one question. Clive underscores the issue quite well, that there are economic considerations to account for.

 

----

Leaving that, the answer is obviously this is about the fish. That's why my mind isn't totally made up, because I struggle seeing how to connect all the dots between creating a bureaucracy and protecting the fish.

---

Are Harps points valid in terms of getting Employment and Immigration involved? Does the SRD's budget have to fund this entirely?

 

More questions...

 

Smitty

[rehsifylf]

Look, is the above points by Clive and Harps not valid though. Forget the the emotionalism of "lets get them"; its not about revenge, and while I can only speak for myself, I'm way over the EKoot.MP.

 

---

Leaving that, the answer is obviously this is about the fish. That's why my mind isn't totally made up, because I struggle seeing how to connect all the dots between creating a bureaucracy and protecting the fish.

---

Smitty

 

Smitty, it may be a tad easier for you to be over the EK MP than for someone who lives within a few minutes of the Elk, or even someone from Calgary that is half as far away from the affected rivers than someone from Edmonton.

 

Nevertheless - there are many, many people (BC residents included) that believe that many of the FMPs in BC are/were spearheaded by guides for their benefit (not the fish) with a veiled proclamation that it was to improve the fishing experience. I think there are valid concerns raised on here suggesting that the licensing issuemight just be an attempt by some to push through an agenda that has nothing to do with improving the fishing experience, and in the end will benefit a select few at the cost of many.

 

Some folks feel that developing effective fishery management plans - including having at least an annual meeting in the largest city in the province once in awhile - should be the first order of business before we start spending time, effort, and money, on something that nobody seems to be able to confirm is actually a problem.

[Smitty]

Reh(why do you have such a hard name to remember to spell?):

 

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Undoubtedly its easier for me to be a little more objective because I am sitting in Edmonton.

 

That's why I am trying to keep things simple in asking basic questions; I don't want this to delve (though it seems unavoidable, and I'm fascinated to find out how much this is brought up Saturday) into "their jurisdiction peed in our pool, and now turnabout is fair play".

 

All I am trying to do is ascertain what is reasonable. It would seem reasonable to me the previous suggestions that the licensing process is kept as simple as possible, and leave FMP's and limiting guides for another day.

 

If one (and I am leaning this way) were to simply base their position on the principle of "I'm in favor of licensing because its reasonable to have some minimal standards / regulations in place for any commercial activity, much less a commercial activity targeted at profiting off a public resource that is recreational in nature" then it would seem to me we have point, a square one, a base in which to proceed. So for me, a lot fo this question is based on this principle and what is reasonable expectation of the guiding industry.

 

Right now it is a free for all, unregulated, unmonitored, and to me, that spells trouble. But that comment is based a lot on gut, and less on empirical data, unless you think its valid to make a comparison to other service industries that have nothing to do with angling, and make a stand on what constitutes sound business practices and their attendant regulatory framework.

 

Make sense? Yes? No?

 

Smitty

[DaveJensen]

Mike S,

The issue with licensing, is why?

I can go ahead and apply and get a BC angling guide license as an Albertan. I have one as I own Fortress Lake Retreat. I can guide a ton of water in BC that isn't part of the Classified waters. I can apply for rod days on CW. BC cannot restrict me from this process, as a Canadian, though I may not get many rod days on CW. Nor can an Alberta licensing system preclude a BC resident, nor a US one for that matter. So, the question, if any of this is about bad feelings due to the Elk watershed CW, is a simple licensing system is going to do anything to limit cross border guides? No. A US guide can apply for a work permit, any Canadian is legally entitled to work anywhere in the country, and both could simply apply for and get a guide lic in Ab. On the US guide front, that's a federal immigration issue and can't be part of this process as it would be far out of a province's juridictional boundaries to comment on who can't work in Alberta. So that can't be a reason for licensing.

Where the BC system checked in to regulate things was the CW classification, which essentially locked in who could do what, where, within given watersheds. As everyone knows, we're light years from doing that here, but unless you do a system very much like that, there is no way to restrict who can guide anywhere in Alberta.

As you are on the email distribution list from Keith, there is a bit of a mixed message. One msg is that we're just looking at the process of licensing and keeping it simple. Then there's another email that brings up guide standards, etc, which only sets the table for something beyond basic licensing. A review board, proficiency tests, etc.

So, I come to the mtg tomorrow with the suspicion that this process is simply a way of trying to get a gov mandated guide association going, to introduce a lic system to set up 4 or 5 basic industry standards. Again, why? Where is documented proof that our industry is suffering due to bad guides or because we don't have logos and stickers? Where is the proof that shows because I have a sticker, insurance, cpr/fa, show up on an association website, have paid a $500 fee to the gov that I'll be that much better off for it? Don't tell me that because I'm licensed, have insurance, have a sticker on my boat... that I am now a professional guide. No, I'm licensed. That's it. I've already done all the other things, except give myself a sticker - does the mayfly on my minivan count? (speaking of guides with minivans). We've been in business a long time, have always had ins/cpr/fa, done an ok job most days, have a nice little website, always pay my taxes (a fed and prov issue anyway), am involved in many fisheries mgt realms, have my nice little business lic, etc. How is this process going to benefit me / others like me, or benefit the new start ups which already have equal opportunity? Worse, how is spending fisheries budget $ to get this done going to benefit the resource if everyone who legally applies for a guide license is going to get one anyway and guide wherever they want?

And no, I'm not p/o'd or mad, not at all. I just tend to analyze things to death in my head. There truly is very little to suggest this is going to do anything, but seems to be a good idea, though nobody really knows why we'd start this process outside of it being a good idea, but what does it accomplish? On goes the circle.

Cheers, see you tomorrow.