CopperJonny

Awesome x 200

Very nice!! Great job Lornce

Thanks for starting this type of topic... I for one try what I may to replicate what I see, and man.. I have such a long way to go when it comes to fine dry flies... always seem so bulky.. Welders finger lol... "just get a bigger hammer" .. mentality i figure.. One thing that I hope is going to help me, and just thought maybe i will share is a book I picked up called "A.K.'s Fly Box"... (Best) I happened upon it and reading about him in JG's short stories and books etc.. I hummed and hawed over it for a couple of weeks... then pounced lol... he really does explain an awful lot, very well.. which is great for someone who has many questions like myself.. may not be the answer you're looking for Gil , yet thought I would share.... as he spends lots of time on Mayflies..i hope it helps ya in anyway it may

Well here we go!!!! its high time we start a petition with the goal of protecting the habitat!! The mistreatment of the fragile habitat we and others frequent, is UNACCEPTABLE ON ALL ACCOUNTS!!! Time to be loud about it, the whole front range of the rockies north to south ! And anything less is insufficient! All of these acts are despicable and PISS ME RIGHT OFF! Why they overlook this is beyond me, and any excuse is not good enough. Ok so we're late in doing this, better late than never! Let's get er dun! PS- I love quading and riding too, yet there are places to do that in the prairie.... time to get in with the times!!! Its OVER!! And the BS about, " shucks... time to go find a new spot!" That is Unacceptable as well!! Screw That!! As unconfrontational and humbling as that may be, it won't help the fact and no changes will be made. We'll be running all our lives. Seems kind of funny to me... thy will (presently) protect areas..ie: National Parks... yet, not others.. I call "discrimination" lol... also how most times ..."the few ruin it for the many" except for this... hmm. I have not an ounce of problem with responsible riders, but man... this kind of behaviour by so many really needs to cease to exist! Maybe if they made trails that have to be adhered too... thats all! Its been done.... look at Ya-Ha!! No motorized vehicles anymore... and it is doing so much the better for it...

Thats the best thing Ive seen in a while..... Greatest Moment of the 2012 Olympics... thanks had to share ..

Thats so Awesome you had a great time!! I suppose I wont bother mentioning what you missed on the Bow lol... This trip looks like the best time... Gorgeous views and even more Beautiful trout! Well done everyone... so jealous

Sorry to hear about that man... don't rent any space out in your head to that fella... No Vacancy for poor attitudes!! Seeing things like that on the forum are my pet peeves.. hot spots..... actual techniques... only as I believe there are prowlers on here with other ideas than what we do... yet PM'ing or face to face man... especially on the river now thats a different story! Don't worry about that guy, maybe he is having a hard time at home or something and just doesn't have the know how to not include others in his troubles (thats being optimist) Then again a nice big stone thrown at a " beaver in the run" to help him, may do the trick lol ( on second thought ...ignore that )

I'm no official Biologist but the first one .... Tiger I would say for sure.. this last one , Brookie no doubt about it... and as far as breeding and being separate families... haha .... I'm not sure yet I don't think the fish read Latin lol... we "mix" all the time.. no different . if it looks like a duck.....quacks like a duck... must be a......

Actually the water has dropped substantially in the last few days... the launch is quite full now, especially on the downstream side. And thats as of yesterday the 4th of August. Even on the "lee" side is fairly shallow, the boat is nearly within the main current coming off of the trailer and going on. Being perpendicular to the current of this " not so brilliant" in planning of a launch ... creates the problem... In the least , kind of hoping to get them to dig it out.. now would be the time... instead of a repeat of the failure you mention lol, just another example of our "brilliant scholars in control" at work...

Hey all , Can someone please tell me how to do a petition on here... I would like to start one to see if I may get some extra support to approach the MLA of the county which Policemans Flats resides in ( is it MD of Foothills No. 31?). My Late Grandfather was the MLA of the county we lived in (Kings County) as I was growing up back home in New Brunswick. So I haven't any problem communicating nor approaching them. I merely feel I should arm myself with as much support as we may have before doing so.. Topic at hand is getting some help cleaning up our boat launches.. i.e.: the high flows have put allot of debris and extra sediment within the launch at Policemans, rendering it rather ineffective to launch or load boats.. meaning it is rather tough to find a deep enough spot to do either without being so far back that it may cause more damage to the launch via vehicle going too deep and possibly stuck in the clay to, having the boat so far out near the mainstream that is terribly difficult. Merely an excavator in my opinion spend a couple of hours, with a truck, and Im sure only one load would do the trick to be hauled and spread out on the parking lot even. Only to make the launch a little deeper, that is all... clean it up a bit. Possibly even widen it .. Any ideas or thoughts..would be definitely appreciated thanks. I do realize that there are many other issues that may be realized and or dealt with, yet I am only trying one thing at a time, myself.. Baby steps. Oh yes, even if all that may be done here is for anyone interested in supporting this, just to acknowledge by posting here or signing. I will print this up to use for approaching the County.. Thank You. Jonny

Glad you fellas had fun .... Thanks for sharing

Well , Managed to get ahold of the fellas at Pieroway. And If I may so humbly apologize for posting anything on here regarding their customer service. As soon as I had finally gotten ahold of them they actually went out of their way to come right to my door and receive my rod.. as they where in the area. And punctually and incredibly efficiently they had my stick ready in no time!! As a matter of fact, they were waiting on me to pick it up for the most part the past couple of weeks. These fellas ...Jeff and Brad are who I dealt with, are more than accompanying in their effort to back their product! Fellas I apologize !! This will not be forgotten, and surely I anticipate building a sweet dry rod in the future! And quite possibly another two hander, only beefier as my current MD is designed for the Bow! So I may chase so Steelies and Salmon! I spoke with them as I picked up my rod, and was assured anytime anyone may need some help. they will definitely be on top of it! One only has to drop the stick off at the shop. I definitely appreciate the effort put forth... and honestly they are as efficient with their craft as any... Please excuse my ignorance.. I truly did not mean any harm! All the best in the future fellas! I most definitely will promote the local near museum quality gear you create ! Thank you CJ- Jonny

Why don't we have a vote and try to ban the freshet every year?? I haven't heard anyone mention a peep about that. We go through floods "never before seen for the past 50 yrs or so "! Every year!!! Want to complain about bank erosion?!!! NO MORE spring thaw and runoffs . lol NO MORE should the ice be able to shape shift the riverbeds, moving everyones pools, holes and riffles every few years and have to go "hunting" for new ones. For EVERY reason put forth to "BAN" someone else regarding boats and engines the rivers , the floods Trump 'em all !! Even pollution!! Even rudeness," I was here last night and planned to come back in the morning , GD water's higher and dirtier" There are no waves on Golf Courses, just sayin'

With all due respect I believe your estimation of $225/hour is what is way out of whack first of all ! And does not exceed $60 an hour package deal!! And in all honesty if the cost of manning projects approach what you say the "indirect" side is insurance premiums set by the insurance companies due to the amount of accidents that have happened involving life and limb ! Which have only happened for the same reason that the changes in the earth have happened, where as no changes are made until after something happens. Safety is paramount to projects NOW and have been only enforced fully for the past 8-9 years and only gradually improving to what they are now via trial error and ignorance. Thank God we finally see the light and not just the green. The wages in this province have risen , due to none other than the cost of living having risen. From what I understand if our wages had kept up with inflation over the past 50 years, we would be earning 40% more than what we do now. And that means everyone! Minimum wage included. Having said that, in my opinion when we talk about the "skilled labour shortage" in food and beverage industry which I honestly know nothing of ( haven't worked in it since I was a busboy/prep/server/dish before I went to Tech for Welding '97. That is due to the wages earned in that field. No one may live gainfully earning at poverty level income. No one. So having that, they have a lot of understandable trouble to man those fields. Raise the wage and make it more fair and Canadians will fill those positions more eagerly. IF that doesn't happen then ok, open the doors. At the $40ish an hour wage (and under $60 for full package ) earned by tradesmen up there, who at which is less than fair compensation for being away from families for extended periods of time, and living in less than descent living quarters(camps) which are more in line with institutions than a "home away from home". Constant scrutinization by "rent a cops" who are God up there. As well as having personal rights of privacy stripped of them while helping said companies complete construction and maintenance ( In the middle of no where) where the closest city has prices directly aligned with the economic activity and the residence wanting all of the workers money. It is only greed that the companies declare that the wages are too much. In fact, once told to me by an unnamed CEO, they have a certain budget of which they will spend 75% of to keep wages low. Yes in construction of said plants labour cost is 40% of the mark ups . et in the real world its obvious it costs money to make money. They just want more in they're own pockets and feel they should have them built and maintained for near nothing. So when Corporations and companies decide they will go forth with plans, everything is swell until the cost comes up , and you know as well as I do they only do everything in they're power to have it done the cheapest. Just ike you and i going to a pump here in Alberta and spend $100+ to fill one tank and complain... when in other countries the same costs less than $20 . The work performed in all trades and fields in Canada by Canadians and under Canadian Standards are second to none ! Everything is of highest quality, that the Customers are willing to pay for ! The 'Shortage of Worker's" has been created by our own Government, who for " The Greater good of Canadians" have the flood doors wide open, with too many projects going at once, dissolving careers of millions of Tax Paying citizens of this country, taking food off of Canadian children's plates, in turn "Not helping our national Economy in the long run"!! A cap on projects should be implemented and completed in stages, shifting the workers in tune with the projects, continually manning them... in turn supporting Canadians and families which directly and indirectly fund each and every other field in the economy.. Banks, Grocer's, Schools, Hospitals, Law firms , Accountants, Corner stores, Day cares, research societies, charities , think of anything and its funded by Canadians first ! We have more than enough "able " people in this nation who choose to live close to home than travel were we need workers. We need some more funding to help with training of skilled labours , and many people who sit and collect social assistance and unemployment at home, who have two arms, two legs , and a good back that works fine.. Yet sit home collecting what they may (i.e. social assistance) for free in areas that have an incredible shortage of work. ( i.e.: reserves, small towns back home where the Pulp mill , or mine have shut down). What the government and industry leaders need to do in my Opinion is offer as much help as possible in training, then give "Able" Canadians a chance to change there lives. It is they're choice... If you are able , then we need you , over here... You get funding while being trained.... then upon completion 3 months of job search funding. Followed by last's months rent .... flight ticket to occupation... and first months rent where you are going. ( Kiss Nanny and Grampy , kids, friends goodbye.... you'll see them at Christmas cause you should be able to afford to fly home as a working man/woman. And or relocate them to where you are going in the future... either way.... less Able bodies unemployed= more Canadians employed first. Less renting and more Canadian homebuyers.... and Paramount in the eyes of the Government " Taxes" are being paid by Canadians into the coffer, and not just the taxes....the whole darn pay check winds up staying in Canada and spent here for the most part.

Heres more !! Not only six , now at 31 or so occupations.... Fast-Track Option Expanded for Foreign Workers With a pressing need for skilled workers, Canada's Western provinces continue to implement new initiatives to help foreign workers get to Canada and start contributing to the labour force quickly. Human Resources and Social Development Canada (HRSDC) is rolling out the welcome mat to temporary foreign workers, making the transition into the workforce easier, faster and with more protection . HRSDC's Expedited Labour Market Opinion (E-LMO) pilot project has been expanded to cover nearly three times the number of qualifying occupations. It will now be much faster for Alberta and British Columbia (BC) employers to hire temporary foreign workers for 33 select occupations in the health care, hospitality, construction, manufacturing, engineering, maintenance, and sales and services sectors. Whereas the current processing time for LMO applications is five months, for occupations that fall under the E-LMO, applications will be processed within five days. In order to hire a temporary foreign worker, Canadian employers must first apply to HRSDC for a Labour Market Opinion (LMO). The LMO is an assessment of the current Canadian labour market, which ensures that there are no Canadian citizens or Permanent Residents available to fill the positions, before employers are granted permission hire foreign workers. For the 33 occupations now covered by the expanded pilot project, it has already been established that employers have been struggling to find new employees for open positions. With the need for temporary foreign workers in these occupations already predetermined, extensive LMO assessments are no longer necessary. "We anticipate needing to attract 30,000 workers with specific skills to British Columbia each year to meet our labour and skill shortage challenges," noted Colin Hansen, BC Minister of Economic Development. "By expanding the numbers of occupations included in this pilot project, more employers will now benefit from having better and faster access to the temporary foreign workers they need." The Canadian Minister of Human Resources and Social Development Canada, Monte Solberg, highlighted the benefit of the expansion. "The 33 occupations now included in this pilot represent 50 per cent of the total volume of labour market opinion applications from employers in B.C. and Alberta." A dedicated team of temporary foreign worker officers have been established in Alberta and BC to process the greater volume of E-LMO's. The pilot project will run in BC and Alberta until September 2008. The Alberta government has also stepped up its efforts to protect foreign workers by establishing special advisory offices in Edmonton and Calgary. Foreign workers can obtain help from inspectors and employment standards officers in resolving employment standards and occupational health and safety issues. The inspectors and officers will also carry out inspections of companies to ensure that temporary foreign workers receive the wages, overtime, general holiday, and vacation pay to which they are entitled. Complete List of Occupations Included in the E-LMO Pilot Project Carpenters Crane Operators Construction Labourers Steamfitters and Pipefitters Ironworkers Heavy-Duty Equipment Mechanics Machinists Roofers Industrial Electricians Welders Surveyor Helpers Commercial Janitors and Caretakers Specialized Cleaners Mechanical Engineers Civil Engineers Electrical and Electronics Engineers Petroleum Engineers Mechanical Engineering Technologists Hotel and Hospitality Room Attendants Hotel Front Desk Clerks Food and Beverage Servers Food Counter Attendants Food Service Supervisors Industrial Meat Cutters Courier Drivers Residential Cleaning and Support Workers Manufacturing and Processing Labourers Tour and Travel Guides Registered Nurses Dental Technicians Pharmacists Snowboard and Ski Instructors Retail Sales Persons and Sales Clerks Just thought I would share this.

This is what happens when we vote in "Yee whom Open the flood gates out of greed!" (I'm not saying anyone else is better, just incredibly disgusted!) Whom is directly responsible for CREATING the skilled labour shortage in this Country. As well as sabotaging (I'm sure I am not overestimating here)....Millions of Canadian families welfare... taking careers away from proud and highly skilled fellow Canadians lives. Food off of Canadian Childrens plates .. I'm not kidding . Your wage , and mine ... thats next ! Funny how the cost of everything goes up, as it should.. except our earnings( for the majority) now ....... its going to be incredibly tough to do so and or hang on to what we now have! Please pardon my rant, this manipulative government of ours ... Relentless! Foreign worker hiring fast-tracked A+ BY SHEILA PRATT, EDMONTON JOURNAL JULY 17, 2012 The door is open much wider for temporary foreign workers in six construction jobs, and tradesmen from the U.S. can now pick up work permits at the airport, the federal immigration minister announced Monday. But organized labour is worried Canadians may be left out if companies are no longer required to consider them first in six job categories. At Alberta's request, the federal government has agreed to eliminate the requirement that an employer must prove that Canadians were not available (called a labour market opinion) in six job categories - welder, ironworker, carpenter, estimator, millwright and heavy duty equipment mechanic. Pipefitters have been coming for a year without a requirement for the LMO. These are high-demand occupations and employers need to be able to recruit workers much faster to meet growing demand in the oilsands and in Edmonton, where the unemployment rate is 4.4 per cent, Immigration Minister Jason Kenney said. Once inside the province, temporary workers will now be able to take jobs with other employers when their first contracts are over, Kenney said. Previously, foreign workers could not change employers. Kenney said he had no concerns about eliminating the requirement for the LMO, a document outlining evidence of a shortage in a particular category of worker and proof the employer had advertised in Canada for workers but got no response. Kenney stressed he would rely on the provincial government to keep an eye on trends in construction employment to determine if the shortage turns into an oversupply of labour in those categories. Kenney said he doesn't think the federal government will be "so keen" to open the doors that wide in other areas, including for unskilled temporary foreign workers. Temporary foreign workers must have job offers and documents to prove they are qualified in a trade before getting work permits. The new rules will help companies recruit in the U.S., where many construction workers remain unemployed, Kenney said. U.S. workers can work for three weeks and spend a week back home - a pattern common for many Canadians working in the oilsands. But Gil McGowan, head of the Alberta Federation of Labour, said it's a mistake to eliminate the LMO, the one check in the system that protected Canadian access to such jobs. Alberta's non-union contractors gain a big advantage under the new system, he said. Along with elimination of the LMO, Prime Minister Stephen Harper three months ago announced foreign workers can be paid up to 15 per cent less than the going Canadian wage. But union employers must abide by the collective agreement, said McGowan. "This will help make foreign workers the first choice, not the last resort," said McGowan. "This is not about a labour shortage, it's a low-wage strategy. This is mostly designed to give companies access to a big pool of construction labour in the U.S. that is desperate for jobs." McGowan noted that half the companies looking for construction workers do not have apprenticeship training programs, and said those companies should not be allowed to bring in temporary workers. "They don't want long-term solutions, they want quick fixes, and that's what Harper will give them." Stephen Khan, Alberta's minister for enterprise and advanced education, said he's pleased with the new rules, which will create a fast track for six occupations by eliminating paperwork and weeks of waiting involved to obtain the LMO. "We are engaging industry" to take a bigger role in recruiting labour, he said. In a meeting Monday with the Journal editorial board, Kenney noted there is high unemployment among aboriginal youth and up to 14 per cent of immigrants are jobless or chronically underemployed. "I think employers have to do a lot more about skill training." spratt@edmontonjournal.com © Copyright © Edmonton Journal

rofl .....And that would make you , another statistic !! lol.

Wow , are you all ever " So very Lucky!" !! Awesome experience , yet Dood ... being that close to a Mama..... she was testing you all , no doubt... possibly setting a boundary and or setting anyone up for a bad day . Wow , congratulations for the experience , really !! To go along with what you mentioned.. " I Personally would never do that again!!!" And I really don't care to be a nay sayer man , but Wow !! " Not a smart idea guys!" Congratulations on the sweet photos , But I am sure glad that it went well . On the other hand , it also teaches the cubs not to be afraid of man , if Mama gets so close .... Also ,the beginnings of an unfortunate accident may be in the future for them ... as well as a person ... meaning if they do what bears do , well .... we know what happens to them....... Anyhow Sir ... I am very happy that nothing happened. Sweet Pics !! Come on guy's, please be careful !!

Thank You FFC , I very much appreciate your efforts , as well !

Great Job working with the kids !!! wow that looks some sore , and out the other side ..Holy moses .. was that the ole Bow River Hookset at work bowing my head ( Dear God ..... I've been good , know what I mean .... if you remember that happening to Smitty , whats up Dood ... ( Yes I've been hooked before , and yes they were by my self) Here's a deal ! If you don't EVER , an I mean NOT EVER ! Let me do or get that bad of a hook set , I won't swear anymore ... i mean the F word will be greatly reduced , and never the C word ( I never used to use it , yet this year it came out a couple of times) I swear Sir , I'm going to pay it forward , and just hope that ... Lord Hear My Prayer !!!! OUCH Smitty ! WT...Graciousness o:) ! Thats hard core teaching the youngsters . If you ever would like some help , I will gladly offer it . Was a Senior Counsellor back home (NB) all throughout the nineties .. Would like to get involved with putting smiles on faces again and help to pass on this biological passion.

Thanks guy's , I'm in the market as well ! Been mulling over which lights to get , haven't found much with nice lighting .... IKEA has a few styles with nice swing arms . yet bulbs aren't bright enough . Will definitely go check out those Ott lights tomorrow after class ... On sale this week is great ! Thanks for the headsup Jordo!

My word !! Now thats what i was just thinking

I apologize , It took me a couple of rereads of the second and third pages , to finally see what is going on here , my bad . Sundance you are absolutely correct regarding the attempts at change ..... and in fact , I understand that you are feeling the same in the idea that we do need a change .... Thank you for that !! So seeing as we seem to agree on the important and main concern's as a whole .... that we definitely need to change our wasteful ways ,in many areas if not nearly all ! Minimum tweaking , if not total abandon which I'm sure will not ever happen , nor necessarily should it .... Like you say .... As long as we continue to improve , right !!! ? Then I guess the question is " What DO we do ? " , " How are we going to do it ?" , " Can we do it ?" , even moreso .. " How Bad do WE really want to do it ? " ( multiple questions I suppose ) awe lol .. the 4 W's and How ... Again , I'm sorry ... for a bit this afternoon I felt as I was being mocked and I reacted before I saw the " forest for the trees?!!" Do we really want to do this ? It's easy to say .... I know I do , I think lol in all honesty ... we have too , Right ?!!! So how do we do it ? how do we get this started , everyone on an even keel ... we all have to do this together , Right?!!!! I'm not talking this Forum only , I mean EVERYONE ... We've been talking about this for years ....... its fully valid , and is kind of important .. I mean , maybe not necessarily for us , we may not see the benefits or changes in our lifetime ... does it still count though .....Exactly !! So ... let's pull up our socks !! What's the honest to god's truth , next step ?!! MLA's MP's , etc etc ... PM the PM ... petitions ... roundtable talks with everyone even ..... volunteer .. heck !! I've laid em in the past , I'll volunteer my free time to help pull out any old pipes and tubes / decommission old sites and remove ..... thats what I may do , yet maybe we can car pool to the site to do it ?!! I know , is it fruitless or what ? This will be the greatest project / responsibility venture we will face ... this day in age IMO . I mean our forefathers/mothers worked hard to build this nation , world .. I think its our task to " Upgrade " , seeing as now we do have the means too

Edit: ... proactive measures , thats what it's going to take

as a matter of fact Sundance .. surprised you haven't noticed that the feds are manipulating regulations and legilation to make this go through (NGP) without anymore hitches .... ie: flubbing up the fisheries act .. also this is NOT good for Canada by any means ... apparently we have a shortage of work .. do to the taps being opened and every player out there wants in on the "dirty oil" scheme , right now ... and are in fact building at break neck speeds , creating a "shortage of worker's within our borders , at the same time taking away from careers of Canadians who have to put food on the table ... once these projects are complete , will be down to minimal workforce / skeleton crews operating said plants ... only to struggle to fill positions when the maintenance problems arise .. which are 100% coming ! In doing so , they are also making it easier for foreign workers to work in Canada now as well . Which to me , a fella who actually reads between lines continually this lines up with Chinas interest and move toward helping build the lines ... mark my words , China's deal to purchase a large volume of the projected supply will in fact include having foreign workers (Chinese) come over here to build the pipeline and terminals included ... after all ... word is they are definately applying to build the components in China in the first place ... also creating a lesser wage cost ..... Please don't kid yourself .... the Conservatives are continuing to be persistent and consecutively pushing through changes in regulations and policies , legislations and acts ... favouring the business' worth and not the environment . Yes there will most definately be Candian jobs , yet the majority of those , alike with every other project will be the construction , which will bottle neck down to the least cost it will take to meet the demand ... its a given ... is 5 yrs of work comparable to the infinate damage to the land and water . Oh and by the way , the Oil Sands record is terrible !! Remember the ducks ? Have you ever seen the Athabasca below Fort Mackay ? Companies only ever make changes after accidents happen ... why they do not anticipate failures nor take precautionary measures until after something happens is sad ... hopefully out of this , someday that part will change .. Yes they plan and budget for this yet , hardly ever do they instinctively do it merely for .." You know , we should just do it , !" I understand , downtime is unpaid time , yet thats the way it is ! Rick , I have to mention that "No , I truly have not ever sat in a board room meeting , so I truly haven't knowledge of what goes on in there , and I will not claim to do so !" ( and honestly having only been on this forum only a year now , and having read posts on here and word of mouth . I do look forward to meeting you ! You sound like a great guy , with ethics and standards which I consider admirable ! and so does most everyone here ) Truly it has nothing to do with anyone here , we know that !! I do work in the other side of things and am in the work force 100% in the maintenance and construction of the sites , merely 14 yrs now as a Journeyman Welder with the Boilermaker's . And I may truly say without a doubt ... never once in my career has there been a project in Alberta other than new construction and shutdowns /turnarounds / maintenance on the sites here ... Truly they should have a cap on the volume of projects at a time , so as to allow worker's ( Canadian's first ) to have stable career's , directly is an economical pro in regards to every other field and industry in our country ie : Schools , Hospitals , Banks , Groceries , Accountants , lawyer's , public servants .... and so on , and so forth ... then look for help else where ... Starting with our sister nation to the south of us .. paramount to the approval of anymore projects , safety should be researched in building a more practical means of supplying the products ... As was stated earlier .. more technology has to be investigated and or brainstormed so as to not have these disaster's anymore .. I'm sure I may sound hippyish here , but I'm calling a spade a spade ! We have no more rights to use this rock than the birds , fish , Ungulates and every other living beings on here . We just take over and claim ownership , and do what ever we want to do , unfortunately destroying and or changing the landscape forever , via a temporary "need" we only live 70 - 100 yrs +- , and it changes the face of it for the worth .... EVERYTIME , merely to please our eyes .. regardless of impact of others who actually call it home . And shamefully it is always to make a peice of metal and or paper ... which makes our world go round ... Ever notice , any other living thing on this rock .. struggle through life , yet never once do they earn nor spend a cent in there whole lives , nor do they change anything permanently in doing so including their proginy .... funny that is