Water Access Threepoint Creek

[trailhead]

I've been meaning to post this for a while now and seeing as the season is due to start in a couple of weeks I'd like to see if there is an answer out there. As you cross Threepoint Ck at Millarville if you look both upstream and downstream someone, I assume the landowner, has strung a wire across the creek along with No Trespassing signs. Is this an area where the owner has the water rights? Or is someone overstepping their boundaries?

Either way it's :$*%&:

[monger]

I'm not sure if they own the streambed, but if not, you can still get charged with trespassing once you step out of the water onto their land. Search out the landowner and try to have a civil conversation with them. Most likely no communication in the past has led to poor relations with fishermen. A little respect can go a long way.

[BRH]

By definition, if the stream is identified as a navigable stream then the stream bed is public lands. This includes some nebulous amount of the bank back from high water mark ... whatever that means. Who measures where the high water mark is and when it is identified is not included in the definition. Your challenge is determining if this particular stream is identified as being navigable. If so, you have every right to wander the stream and its banks. If not, you need to respect the signs. Generally, if a stream is identified on a regional map it is deemed to be navigable.

 

I have a navigable stream running and winding through two quarters of my land. Although the stream is navigable and public land, I still string a set of barbed wires across the creek where it intersects with my properly line and hang a "No Trespassing" sign on the wire. The wire is there to prevent the cattle from wandering off my land. If someone follows the stream bed into "my" property, they have every right to be there and I can not refuse them the access ... as long as they stay on the stream bed or banks within the arbitrary distance from the high water mark. If they wander away from the stream onto what is really my property, then I am justified in doing something about it.

 

Having said all of that, civil conversation with the landowner who owns the land on both sides of the stream is likely a good way to go. Keep in mind however that he may try to deny you access even though he has no right to.

[gustuphson]

I'm no expert but it's my understanding that some land owners have rights to the stream bed as well. I believe it has something to do with when the land was last sold - if the same family has held it since the 1800's or early 1900's then they still own it...

Anyways, I think touching base with the landowner is the best way to go. I've found them pretty open to granting access the few times I've asked in person. I've also blazed my way through property using the high watermark definition and don't enjoy my fishing as much - being limited to the streambed can make naptime pretty difficult.

[Harps]

Talk to the landowner first... I doubt they own the rights to bed and bank (shore).

 

2 things:

1. Navigable doesn't mean you can walk up the stream. If a stream is navigable, you have the right to FLOAT down with out encountering an unauthorized manmade obstruction. Wire strung across a navigable stream is illegal.

You have to call Transport Canada to find out if a stream is navigable (Only a Navigable Waters Protection Officer can determine whether something is navigable or not), but generally if you can float a canoe down it, it is navigable. (Federal Legislation: Navigable Waters Protection Act)

 

2. The stream could be owned by the Provincial Government as Public Land. Most Permenant watercourses (streams, creeks, rivers) are owned in title by the crown. The title normally refers to Bed and Banks... which is loosely defined as all of the substrate and up to the normal highwater mark (imagine where terrestrial vegetation starts to grow). It is this title that allows an angler to WALK along the stream, as long as they don't leave the highwater mark. There are some landowners that own bed and bank.... longtime landowners such as the McKintyre Ranch in S. Alberta. Generally these landowners have had the property passed down throiugh inheritance from when it was deeded to them by the Crown. This is very rare! but you have to do a title search to find out what land is deeded (contact SRD- Public lands for more info).

 

A creek can have both, one, or none of these points apply. There are many small creeks that are owned by the Crown, that are not navigable so they can be fenced, but you CAN walk up them. There are also rivers in Canada that you can float down, but you can't step foot on the bed without trespassing.

 

You also have the right to follow many township and range lines to a watercourse (When split up, public road allowances were created to access each quarter section). You can google Alberta township system for more info.

 

 

 

Eitherway, those above points won't stop birdshot if a landowner thinks you're trespassing.

[Parry]

I Believe, and dont quote me on this that there are only around 9 sections of rivers/streams (pretty sure only streams) that are owned by someone besides the goverment in Alberta. Not sure on three point however i do know of 1 around edson, and 1 on the jumping pound. Problem i personally find is that me being young, and often times not dressed in "respectable" clothing in the eyes of the beholder i get a less then welcome response when asking if i can cross land. It seems that us younger people have a harder time getting permission to cross land then alot of the older folk. Ive even had a case where i was 5-6hours walking distance from the bridge on a section and was joined by a fellow fly fisherman who accused me of crossing his land as he has never seen anyone at that point in the creek and there was no way i had walked up that far.... Thus is life thou, im sure there are many willing to share access, but there are just as many not willing. Personally i dont see a problem with people walking over cattle grazzing land, but i guess there are those sue happy individuals out there trying to twist an ankle and make a quick buck

 

 

Dustin

[Jayhad]

Dustin I met with the MD of Rocky View about access on Jumping Pound and their head of titles (don't know his actual title but I have his card around her somewhere) told me that there is no land owner along the JP that owns the water

[trailhead]

Thanks for the info all. I'll see if I can find who the owner is then.

[cdock]

Dustin I met with the MD of Rocky View about access on Jumping Pound and their head of titles (don't know his actual title but I have his card around her somewhere) told me that there is no land owner along the JP that owns the water

 

I've been through the Jumpingpound water fiasco before. It's too much trouble to fish the water and the fishing is subpar due to all of the cattle activity. Spend your energy and avoid the land issue on other waters. You'll enjoy it much better.

 

[Parry]

Dustin I met with the MD of Rocky View about access on Jumping Pound and their head of titles (don't know his actual title but I have his card around her somewhere) told me that there is no land owner along the JP that owns the water

 

Could very well be Dog Pound, sorry the info is in the back reaches of my brain lol....

[Keith]

I Believe, and dont quote me on this that there are only around 9 sections of rivers/streams (pretty sure only streams) that are owned by someone besides the goverment in Alberta. Not sure on three point however i do know of 1 around edson, and 1 on the jumping pound. Problem i personally find is that me being young, and often times not dressed in "respectable" clothing in the eyes of the beholder i get a less then welcome response when asking if i can cross land. It seems that us younger people have a harder time getting permission to cross land then alot of the older folk. Ive even had a case where i was 5-6hours walking distance from the bridge on a section and was joined by a fellow fly fisherman who accused me of crossing his land as he has never seen anyone at that point in the creek and there was no way i had walked up that far.... Thus is life thou, im sure there are many willing to share access, but there are just as many not willing. Personally i dont see a problem with people walking over cattle grazzing land, but i guess there are those sue happy individuals out there trying to twist an ankle and make a quick buck

 

 

Dustin

 

I would qualify myself as a 'young guy' and I've only ever been refused access once, and even in that case the rancher said he didn't want me out there alone for safety reasons but if I had a friends it would be ok. I don't know what you mean by respectable clothing, but I think if stick to some pretty basic guidelines then you should be ok. I generally show up in your basic outdoor gear, such as cargo pants and a fleece, and I've never had a problem.

[dogpound]

The Dogpound runs through my quarter, unlike some mountain freestone streams if you are standing on the bank of the DP you are on private land, as the bank is the high water-mark. The section that runs through my land was fenced on either side of the stream many years ago to reduce streamside habitat loss due to cattle - I Still run into the odd person that thinks if they are between the fence and the stream it is public land - I have had to kick one group of guys off cause they built a camp fire to cook some grub???? My land is posted no trespassing just for the hunting crowd - 95% of the people that fish the stream are very respectful, save the guys starting fires and the ones who feel a need to leave the packaging from their spinners on the bank/approach - that really cheeses me off - they must not have been brought up right!

 

Contact the landowner is always the best approach - I do not know any landowners in my area that would deny access to any respectful fisherman - they may not want you walking/driving across a seeded/planted field but generally there is no concerns.

 

 

[Parry]

I would qualify myself as a 'young guy' and I've only ever been refused access once, and even in that case the rancher said he didn't want me out there alone for safety reasons but if I had a friends it would be ok. I don't know what you mean by respectable clothing, but I think if stick to some pretty basic guidelines then you should be ok. I generally show up in your basic outdoor gear, such as cargo pants and a fleece, and I've never had a problem.

 

 

Straight bermed hats, colourful t-shirts or shirts........ skate/snowboard clothing if you will. Anyways im a pretty respectable person and am very well spoken. Needless to say in my personal experiance i have had more people turn me away then not. Maybe it is just me, who knows.

[danhunt]

Straight bermed hats, colourful t-shirts or shirts........ skate/snowboard clothing if you will. Anyways im a pretty respectable person and am very well spoken. Needless to say in my personal experiance i have had more people turn me away then not. Maybe it is just me, who knows.

 

 

I can't remember the name of the author right now (I think it might be something like Bill Heavey), but he writes short humor stories and in one he was relating his experiences with asking for access to peoples land. As the story goes he had been shut down by a number of sucessive land owners, and when he related the story to his elderly father the old man volunteered to go with him on his next visit. As they were getting ready the son saw the father putting on a dress shirt and tie and he made a comment to his father "you look like you are going out on a sales call" to which the father replied "aren't we"?

 

I may have the details of the story a bit jumbled up, but the point is when you approach a landowner asking for access to a piece of property you are trying to sell yourself as a mature, decent, responsible person. Unless they already know you, or they have the time to get to know you, they will be faced with making a snap judgement based on your appearence, your attitude and your body language. Keeping in mind they have likely let people on their land before, and it is just as likely they have been burned by some of those, if there is any doubt in their mind why would they take a chance? Its nothing personal, but like so many things in life we all end up paying for the mistakes of those who went before us.

 

On a related note, has anyone ever tried exchanging labor for access? There is never any shortage of work on a farm or a ranch, and if it took a day or two of fencing or pitching bales or what ever, I think that would be a worthwhile trade for a nice stretch of water.

[BRH]

danhunt makes a valid point here. As a landowner through which a trout stream wanders, I have about 30 seconds to evaluate an individual asking for permission. If the person looks like "city folk", my immediate impression is somewhat less positive than if the person looks like the neighbor down the road. If the person standing at my door has rings in his eyebrows, nose, ears, lips or any other visible portion of their anatomy, my reaction is anything but positive. A farm boy, generally, doesn't have any of that for safety reasons. If he's dressed in a suit and tie wanting access to your willow lined stream, he's an accident looking for a place to happen. If the person looks like he comes from a farm, chances are he's pretty well in tune with respecting the land and his permission to have access. Whenever I'm going to ask a farmer for permission, I always put on my dirtiest Carharts before I knock on the door. I hand him my farm business card with all my contact information on it including the make, colour and license plate number of my truck.

 

As far as swapping labour for access, don't come to me with that offer. By the time I teach you how to do something, I could have had it done 3 times over. This may not work in your favour. However, the guy who comes to my door and tells me I have a fence wire down or a calf out or someone is out wandering around in my field is welcome back anytime and can even drive through the yard down the old trail to the beaver dam cutting out a mile or more of walking.

 

As a side note, dogpound ... I sure wish someone would come to me with a Buck For Wildlife prospect of fencing off both sides my stream. Keeping cattle off the stream course is a costly venture.

[troutlover]

i always throw on the old national finals rodeo hat when asking for permission.

[BRH]

2 things:

1. Navigable doesn't mean you can walk up the stream. If a stream is navigable, you have the right to FLOAT down with out encountering an unauthorized manmade obstruction. Wire strung across a navigable stream is illegal.

 

You also have the right to follow many township and range lines to a watercourse (When split up, public road allowances were created to access each quarter section). You can google Alberta township system for more info.

 

2 things.

Wire strung across a navigable stream is not necessarily illegal. Same goes for other manmade obstructions. Be cautious not to make the mistake of assuming the landowner hasn't gone through the proper channels authorizing him/her to put in place the wire or obstruction.

 

You have the right to follow many township and range lines to a watercourse. This is true but don't be fooled into thinking that all township and range lines appearing on the Alberta township system fall into that category. A township road appearing on the Alberta township system separates two of my quaters and borders a third. I lease that township line from the county with full access authority written into the lease. You have no right to be on that township line without my permission.

[Harps]

Psuedo, I did say "unauthorized"... Typically before 2004 most streams you could string wire across were considered Not Navigable. That changed when Transport Canada took over the program. Now, even Mosquito Creek near Nanton is Navigable, and therefore any obstruction that is not approved by Navigable Waters and not appropriately signed is considered illegal. I don't agree with it, but the rule are rules, until somebody with some time and money challenges them (like the Alberta Government).

Navigable Waters Protection Program

Transport Canada

Canada Place

1100-9700 Jasper Avenue

Edmonton AB

T5J 4E6

 

Phone: 780-495-8215

Fax: 780-495-8607

Anybody can call Nav Waters to check if wire is legally strung.

And my original point was that navigable waters are for boating (federal rules).

Non nav waters are fine to be fenced (through Alberta gov contacts) but the point is walking access is maintained (Alberta rules).

 

Unless the proper approvals come from the federal government on fencing a Navigable stream, they aren't proper and any person can complain (petty complaints from neighbours most of the time). If there were no sign indicating an obstruction ahead and offering a portage, then that obstruction was not approved by Nav Waters... And when some kid on a tube or in a kayak floats down and gets hung up on the wire, that landowner is completely liable.

 

 

 

As for the Township lines, I said "many". Some of the right of ways have been traded. Some have been moved due to grade or access obstruction. Yes, many are leased (most aren't marked and assumed to be private property).

I also said talk to the landowner first.

 

I'm a landowner (not an outside of Calgary acreage landowner)... I don't like the access rules. I have kids partying and broken bottles and big fires. Unfortunately it is a kayak takeout at the end of the RoW... and even though the road isn't on the real RoW, to fight the MD and the public would be a bad situation.

 

Rec Access to Public Land

http://srd.alberta.ca/lands/recreation/acc...t.aspx#location

This provides info on accessing public lands and contact info for landowners and conditions.

Otherwise call the MD office: http://www.aamdc.com/index.php?option=com_...&Itemid=290

 

 

As for appearences... I'm too dark to be a born and bred Albertan , I drive a car to most places I fish, and I don't look like a rancher when I fish, but I've never had a bad experience based on that. Although some redneck punk tried to run me off the road between Cremona and Sundre about 10 years back... I just assumed he was part of the Terry Long fanclub, but maybe he was sick of city lookin' folk slowing down as they crossed trout streams along 22.

[Keith]

I can't remember the name of the author right now (I think it might be something like Bill Heavey), but he writes short humor stories and in one he was relating his experiences with asking for access to peoples land. As the story goes he had been shut down by a number of sucessive land owners, and when he related the story to his elderly father the old man volunteered to go with him on his next visit. As they were getting ready the son saw the father putting on a dress shirt and tie and he made a comment to his father "you look like you are going out on a sales call" to which the father replied "aren't we"?

 

I may have the details of the story a bit jumbled up, but the point is when you approach a landowner asking for access to a piece of property you are trying to sell yourself as a mature, decent, responsible person. Unless they already know you, or they have the time to get to know you, they will be faced with making a snap judgement based on your appearence, your attitude and your body language. Keeping in mind they have likely let people on their land before, and it is just as likely they have been burned by some of those, if there is any doubt in their mind why would they take a chance? Its nothing personal, but like so many things in life we all end up paying for the mistakes of those who went before us.

 

On a related note, has anyone ever tried exchanging labor for access? There is never any shortage of work on a farm or a ranch, and if it took a day or two of fencing or pitching bales or what ever, I think that would be a worthwhile trade for a nice stretch of water.

 

I'm too lazy to spend any fishing time doing labour, but if a landowner lets me on their land I usually show up the second time with a bottle of wine or whiskey and find that I'm more than welcome. And given the amount of money I spend on fly fishing I find it to be a small investment.