Swore I Wouldn't Go, But...

[Taco]

I'da voted in ur poll but you didn't give me the option of voting "None of my damn business how BC manages their resource there's enough problems in my home province to concern me."

[zed]

Rehsifylf:

 

Can't say I sympathize at all with what you're saying. The article is 4 years old, and if you feel that strongly about it on principle, then do indeed cancel your trip.

 

Whether it was done for (1) the fish and conservation reasons (2) limit crowding (3) a combo of both reasons, what's done is done. The bottom line is that Albertans (and Canadians in general) are more than happy to pay $20+ to go to the movies (including snacks), $50+ to attend Oilers/Flames games, $50+ for an afternoon of golf, $50+ for a day of skiing. The list goes on. We're a consumerist society.

 

Bottom line is $20/day is a hell of deal to fish world class waters. I have no problem with the fee, AS LONG AS the fee goes towards conservation/preservation/enhancement of the resource I am paying for.

 

What I do agree with is that our government is shamefully lacking in terms of implementing the same kind of policies. Seems like we're stuck in the previous century when it comes to charging the appropriate fees to non-Albertans.

 

Life's to short Rehsifylf for you to spend that much time feeling that upset about it, and/or potentially guilty if you do go, and/or potentially regretful if you do cancel. Why not go and enjoy the spectacular scenery and fishing? In my opinion, there are larger issues, fishing and non-fishing, to draw your sword and choose the hill in which to battle. But more power to you...

 

Good fishing,

Smitty

 

 

well said smitty. honest to god if you're bitching and moaning over $20 bucks a day what bc business is gonna want to see your face anyway?

[rehsifylf]

Couple of points zed (and smitty I guess). I think this is a valid topic for discussion

 

I'm not sure I see anyone bitching about $20/day. What I see are complaints about 1) There is no option for an annual license covering all of the rivers for non BC Canadians, 2) The changes were driven by a small group of partisan stakeholders and were aimed at making the rivers more exclusive - not at protecting the fishery - and without proper public consultation and debate before they went in (including consulting the public in the areas around the affected rivers), and 3) The regs are not equitable.

 

The article is 4 years old - well, so are the regs. So I think it speaks to the real rationale behind the changes, not the revisionist version that has since emerged. To quote the author, Mark Hume, "Many of B.C.’s best waters are getting crowded. And most of the crowding, at least on the Elk, Wigwam and other southeastern rivers, is coming from Alberta. For those of us who’ve lived in B.C. a lifetime that’s a bit perturbing." But then, in the same article, the author states: "On the Elk River licensed commercial guides and assistants have increased from 9, in 1995, to 52 in 2002." Hmm - the guides were local, no?

 

Regarding his statement on the source of the crowding (ALBERTA): Creel surveys suggested that angling pressure had increased ten-fold since the early 1980s, and that almost 80% of anglers surveyed originated from outside the province - 49% from the US and 28% from Alberta. That would suggest about 23% from BC and 28% from Alberta. This sounds about right given the location of the Elk to Alberta population centers.

 

BC has some excellent regulations that were all in place place well in advance of these changes - catch and release, bait-ban, slot limits, barbless etc. But as even Dave Brown said:

 

"In the process he [the author of an article] has attempted to draw the readership of Fly Fisherman into the very confusing realm of good-old-boy B.C. politics, where a minority of local anglers and outfitters feel that they should be able to roll back the clock to the days before "The Movie" and introduce measures that would deter anglers from outside the province from accessing these resources."

 

This was from a letter to Flyfishing magazine in response to an article talking about over-pressure on the Elk (don't have the date - but I believe it was shortly before the new regs came in). Note - for earlier posts where the local guides were placed in one category - that might not have been fair to Dave and any other local guides who might not have been fully on board with these new regs. Don't know where he stands on this, but his statement would suggest he would not support this.

 

Finally - and I promise I'll let this drop (for now ) - wanted to say that I had a great week-end on the river. Best part was that I met some other fishermen - one from Elkford who was super-nice even after he saw the plate on our truck. I never once got the feeling that he had any problems whatsoever with Albertans. Also met some folks from Calgary there who went out of there way to be friendly at the rec site. Shared some stories and beverages, and even discussed these regs (I think they would vote no). The week-end is was pretty much a mirror image of a trips taken up to 2004 as far as fish #s, size, number of other groups etc, which is yet another reason I question the what the new regs intended to do.

 

Final note - caught two cut-bows in one hole, without checking the throat would have sworn they were full rainbows.

[deeboo]

i was at the wigwam about 2 weeks ago and it was quite the experience. i think the main problem i found about the classified waters system was that it causes some animosity from both parties. i went to a fly shop to pick up my license and i detected a hint of annoyance from the operator when he found out where i was from. even though we exchanged formal pleasantries it seemed like he didn't like the fact i was there and not using a guide service. even the locals i ran into made claims like " its not a very good fishery anymore" or "there aint to many fish in that river" when i tried to find access to the river i was told "its about ten km hike from any of the roads so its probably unlikely you will get there" which i knew was a complete lie. so needless to say i was a little agitated and spent a good 2 hours trying to find access until i finally talked to some great people in elko who gave me great directions and even went as far as to let me follow them to the road which would get me there. i had a good time caught tons of nice fish and it was a great experience. as for the twenty bucks, was it worth it? well, kinda....its not alot of money and once i got past the hassle i had a good time. i wouldn't go every day but i can see myself making the trip again someday in the future. the fishing was good, the scenery spectacular but i wouldn't say the fishing was better or the scenery nicer then the streams and rivers we have here. i didn't catch any small fish, the smallest was around 15 inches and i managed to land around 40 healthy fish, so it looks like the regulations they have set up have caused a great fishery so i don't think the classified waters is a completely horrible thing. paying for fishing seems sacrilegious but i guess if its not something you do often its not to bad. i probably can spend 20 bucks easy on drinks, books, video games etc. without feeling buyers remorse so paying to fish really aint that big a deal

[OneMoreLastCast]

First off, I want to say to Rehsifylf that I, in no way, meant to jump all over you. My comments were aimed generally at some of the arguments made here in this thread and other places as well. If you took it as a direct shot at you, I apologize.

 

That being said, I'm glad you still went on your trip and had a good time.

 

One question though...When you say a person can't buy an annual license, do you mean general Angling license or annual Classified Waters license?

 

The reason a person can't buy an annual license for CW's is because of the maximum number of consecutive days a person is allowed. It is also so that they can track the number of people over a season that have bought the daily CW's so they can progressively implement regulations to sustain the fishery. It's supposed to work kind of like Hunting Tags for deer, etc., but without the limitation of Angler numbers for each CW, (which would be great IMO).

 

I understand where you are coming from with the Poll you put up, but to simply ask if someone thinks they are "Fair", isn't going to prove anything. The system is far too complex to draw conclusions from a poll that is so basic. Without knowing the entire scope of the Regulations and how it affects even the Residents, (ie- Number of Rod Days on a River a local guide is allowed, etc.), most people couldn't possibly answer without some ignorance.

 

My point about principle was simply that people are willing to piss away $20 on far more petty things and not think about it, but when asked to pay $20 for a day of fishing, We see it as unfair or against Our principles. It comes down to a personal choice and each individual has the right to choose.

 

I've fished the Elk River Drainage for over 30 years and I've seen too many changes to list off. Now that the CW system has had a chance to show it's effectiveness, I can honestly see only positive results. The only negative impact it's had is the hard feelings between Albertans and people from BC, but really, the feelings are far nicer now than before the new Regs.

 

I don't know if you were around when the Bait Bans and Seasonal closures were put in on the Bow, but there were a lot of people up in arms over it. Years later, it's just the way it is and the fishery is thriving.

 

I believe the same will be true of the Classified Waters System. It won't take long before the newer generations of Anglers will know nothing else and hear stories of the old days when Us Albertans could just jump over the boarder and fish a day for next to nothing.

[ggp]

First off, I want to say to Rehsifylf that I, in no way, meant to jump all over you. My comments were aimed generally at some of the arguments made here in this thread and other places as well. If you took it as a direct shot at you, I apologize.

 

That being said, I'm glad you still went on your trip and had a good time.

 

One question though...When you say a person can't buy an annual license, do you mean general Angling license or annual Classified Waters license?

 

The reason a person can't buy an annual license for CW's is because of the maximum number of consecutive days a person is allowed. It is also so that they can track the number of people over a season that have bought the daily CW's so they can progressively implement regulations to sustain the fishery. It's supposed to work kind of like Hunting Tags for deer, etc., but without the limitation of Angler numbers for each CW, (which would be great IMO).

 

I understand where you are coming from with the Poll you put up, but to simply ask if someone thinks they are "Fair", isn't going to prove anything. The system is far too complex to draw conclusions from a poll that is so basic. Without knowing the entire scope of the Regulations and how it affects even the Residents, (ie- Number of Rod Days on a River a local guide is allowed, etc.), most people couldn't possibly answer without some ignorance.

 

My point about principle was simply that people are willing to piss away $20 on far more petty things and not think about it, but when asked to pay $20 for a day of fishing, We see it as unfair or against Our principles. It comes down to a personal choice and each individual has the right to choose.

 

I've fished the Elk River Drainage for over 30 years and I've seen too many changes to list off. Now that the CW system has had a chance to show it's effectiveness, I can honestly see only positive results. The only negative impact it's had is the hard feelings between Albertans and people from BC, but really, the feelings are far nicer now than before the new Regs.

 

I don't know if you were around when the Bait Bans and Seasonal closures were put in on the Bow, but there were a lot of people up in arms over it. Years later, it's just the way it is and the fishery is thriving.

 

I believe the same will be true of the Classified Waters System. It won't take long before the newer generations of Anglers will know nothing else and hear stories of the old days when Us Albertans could just jump over the boarder and fish a day for next to nothing.

Lets clarify this...A person may buy as many CW licenses as he or she may require during the season....each one being a maximum of 8 consecutive days and at a cost of 20$ a day then a new one must be purchased. And lets not forget that this is after a BC freshwater license has been purchased for 57.75 witch includes the GST, if you are a non resident Canadian. (A total tax grab) As far as the regs that were implemented on the Bow, these applied to everyone no mater what province they may be from, big difference....In other words they were not discriminatory....(BC's are)....Its pretty sad that a government and a few protectionists can create such animosity between neighbours.

[OneMoreLastCast]

I don't think you got my point with the comparison. I was saying that in time, the "Grandfather" rule will take effect and people fishing in the future will not know the difference.

 

If you feel this strongly, you would fall under the category of, "Personal choice". You as an individual can choose not to go.

 

If you think there is animosity due to the CW regs being put into place, you obviously didn't fish the area before.

 

Not sure why you quoted the entire post I made, but your post/reply completely backs up what I am saying about the "Us" against "Them". It's not about Us and Them, it's about the fish and the future of the Fishery. It's one of the few places that I fished 30 years ago with my Grandfather that I am now confident that I will also be able to fish with my own Grand Children.

 

Anyone that feels that it is a direct shot at them, or Us as a province, should re-evaluate whether they are more concerned about the Fish, or Their right to fish under regulations that They feel are fair.

 

As someone else pointed out, it is rare to fish more than a few times in the Elk River Drainage without being asked for your license. I haven't been checked in Alberta for 3 years, which is over 300 days on Alberta waters. I'd say they are putting the money to good use as far as returning it to the resource that it came from and was meant to aid.

 

It is a topic that creates and shows strong feelings and I've decided to leave it alone from here on in before more hard feelings are created.

[cuttbow]

This has gone on way too long. We need to pressure the ab gov to increase the price of non-res fishing licenses, lets say 20 a day to fish alberta water. BC's laughing at it so lets put some pressure on the gov to do something about it. Just think of the extra tripploids we could stalk with the extra cash. So who dont we call or e-mail to balance this out. lets loby for it. Ya grew up fishing in the elk river with my grandfather now cant justify the cost to relive old memories.

[cuttbow]

BC-BRING CASH

[Highlander]

The Vedder river, close to Vancouver "is always crowded. If you want to fish the best runs, you had better plan on arriving well before first light. The locals joke that you need to bring your own rock to stand on." I think they need to implement this as a Class II river.

 

And to respond to cgyguy about "BCer don't fish in Alberta". What reason would BCers have for not fishing in Alberta. They pay the exact sames fees as someone from Alberta would. Reciprocity is all anyone is asking for here.

 

The Vedder is like a magnet to keep the idiots off other streams.

 

Alberta should look after it's own rivers and quit complaining about how other Provinces look after theirs. Alberta has some fantastic fishing and many people from BC would pay more to fish there. Alberta is missing the boat in this regard. Do you realize that it costs me less to buy an annual Alberta fishing license than one for at home in BC? I can guarantee you one thing, if Alberta one day decides that fishers from out of Province have to pay more, anglers from BC will not attempt to organize boycotts of Alberta businesses, or whine and snivel that some steps are being taken to protect the resource. We'll still come to fish, we'll still patronize you fishing stores, still hire Alberta guides, still shop for groceries and still buy your gas (like we have a choice on that one ).

 

For some perspective though, how much does it cost to play a round of golf compared to fishing for a day on the Elk. Ah you say, but Albertans and BC'ers pay the same for a round, to which I reply, yes, and everyone pays a lot!!!

 

How about this, you send us a big slice of your oil revenues and we'll let you fish the Elk for cheap. Sounds stupid, but the point I'm trying to make is that each province manages its own natural resources to benefit it's own citizens. I don't hear anyone clamouring to send BC any of Alberta's oil revenues, so why should BC give away access to it's resources for a pittance? There's no real difference.

[orvisonly]

The Vedder is like a magnet to keep the idiots off other streams.

 

If that is the case - they put the river in a good spot, being so close to a large source of supply.

 

Alberta should look after it's own rivers and quit complaining about how other Provinces look after theirs. Alberta has some fantastic fishing and many people from BC would pay more to fish there. Alberta is missing the boat in this regard. Do you realize that it costs me less to buy an annual Alberta fishing license than one for at home in BC?

 

Could it be that Alberta backs up what they say about promoting fishing in the province, unlike BC who issues policy statements saying they will promote fishing, then deliberatley antagonizes the largest market? A foreign concept to someone from BC, but could it be that the government doesn't feel the need to grab even more money from Canadian citizrns, just because they can?

 

I love that you live in Abbots - a mere 10 hours from the Elk but feel fine lecturing to someone who lives 1/2 hour away.

 

How about this, you send us a big slice of your oil revenues and we'll let you fish the Elk for cheap. Sounds stupid

 

100% agree with you on this (the last part).

 

the point I'm trying to make is that each province manages its own natural resources to benefit it's own citizens.

 

The point many on here are making - is that this is not benefiting any but a few select citizens.

[tgo]

I voted yes because I believe those who say it has reduced the pressure on these streams. I didn't fish the Elk drainage before the regs, I was usually happy with Southern Alberta for convenience and being a broke-ass student I didn't want to pay more to fish. The three days mkm and I spent on the Elk, Michel, and Wigwam we didn't once see another walk-and-wade fisherman, and we covered a ton of water along easy access points, except for the Wigwam of course. We had some of best dry-fly fishing we've ever had, during which we had the river to ourselves save for a few drift boats on the Elk. I don't know what it was like before the changes, or that CW licences are in part responsible for the quality of these fisheries, but I was certainly happy with my experience and was glad to pay 20 bucks for it.

[teamrabies]

I voted yes because I believe those who say it has reduced the pressure on these streams. I didn't fish the Elk drainage before the regs, I was usually happy with Southern Alberta for convenience and being a broke-ass student I didn't want to pay more to fish. The three days mkm and I spent on the Elk, Michel, and Wigwam we didn't once see another walk-and-wade fisherman, and we covered a ton of water along easy access points, except for the Wigwam of course. We had some of best dry-fly fishing we've ever had, during which we had the river to ourselves save for a few drift boats on the Elk. I don't know what it was like before the changes, or that CW licences are in part responsible for the quality of these fisheries, but I was certainly happy with my experience and was glad to pay 20 bucks for it.

 

I voted no. I have no problem with $20/day to fish, but fished these rivers before the regulations were brought in and they were always good. Do you think they would have as many anglers as they do/did if the fishing was poor? There were a few stretches (famous) that get/got drifted heavily, but it was always rare to bump into fishermen on the rivers you mentioned if you went off the beaten track to walk and wade. Catch and Release regs were all that was required.

 

I would accept a premium on an annual license. I believe that to be fair, BC residents should pay more than $15 per year ($30). Other Canadians could pay $40. Non-Canadians $60.

 

I think Missin the Bow is right though - as time goes by, people will buy into the revised history of why the regulations were introduced and believe that it is the CW regs that produced the good fishing. I think your post prooves that to be true. But I think Missin the Bow got it wrong when he said the reason they do not sell annual licenses for CW to non-residents is to keep track off rod days. Likley 30% of the rod days are from Residents of BC who can only buy an annual license - how would they know how many rod days they had? Also - the BC CW license is good for all of the Class II waters so you wouldn't even know which river they fished.

[duanec]

i didn't vote, as i agree fair or not, it is what it is now, and yes there will be a time in the near future when it won't matter. i enjoy reading the varied & multiple points of view in this thread...that's the fun...perhaps it's too simple-minded on my part to assume that no hard feelings should be created as a result of healthy debate. but in that spirit, a couple of comments i'll put out there:

 

-these particular regulations came into effect with no actual supporting data in regards to the crowds, the fishery or the economics. please correct me if i am wrong. to my knowledge there has been no follow up study since to determine the impact on either the crowds, the fishery or the economics [positive or negative], and without a clear picture of the 'before' it would not be very meaningful for comparison anyways. please correct me if i am wrong. surprising that a change like this got made without some real level of study? could that happen here? yikes...

 

-i fished before and after in the area. i have had days of 'complete solitude' both before and after. i have had days of 'holy crap it's busy today' both before and after. both on shore and on a boat. i will comment it seems to have changed the who is fishing and where/how to some degree, but that's my opinion & personal experience.

 

-although i don't get 300 days on the water a year, i have fished quite a bit in the last 15 years in ab & bc. i have been checked by a co 3 times in alberta and once in bc. never in the elk valley have i even seen a co. that's just another data point.

 

-the "us & them" is an attitude that exists outside of this issue and the angling community, but this issue obviously galvinates & polarizes that. it existed before and still exists, sorry that's reality. no it's not everyone and there are good peeps everywhere & there are rednecks everywhere. not everyone is happy to see me there because of where i live [too bad], or give a crap about my $$. some do and are honest, friendly and helpful, so that's where i try to go.

 

-i would happily pay X times what a resident pays for the privilidge to fish those classified waters without the hassle of buying a daily tag. it's the hassle factor. not even the online system helped that this year, in fact i learned it is actually a detriment to use that. and the shops don't like it either. i just wish for some level of equity, as pointed out you can come from away and fish here pretty reasonably [for better or worse].

 

-so who manages a better fishery - alberta or bc? to be fair, there are very serious issues on both sides of the border, we can all cite numerous examples. i agree alberta could and should be doing MUCH more with our population and economic base. i expect in my lifetime there will be much more substantial policy changes on the bow & other rivers & lakes i frequent. after all, home is where i probably should focus my time & energy, unfortunately i thought 'home' meant anywhere i regularly fish and therefore should be involved & care about the conservation, quality and economics involved, but that's not the case there.

[mcleod52]

Get over it .. fork over the dough to fish the water and enjoy. Price we have to pay to fish some glorious water. At least that is my perspective from the Seattle area. I drop by the Elk once a year on my pilgrimage back home and would not hesitate to drop the coin to enjoy it.

[Highlander]

I love that you live in Abbots - a mere 10 hours from the Elk but feel fine lecturing to someone who lives 1/2 hour away.

100% agree with you on this (the last part).

The point many on here are making - is that this is not benefiting any but a few select citizens.

 

And I love that you live in a different Province yet believe that anyone in BC should have less input into management of BC's resources than you. Also, that you actually seem to believe that whats Alberta's is Alberta's. and what's BC's should also be Alberta's. Give your head a shake.

 

And if by "a few select citizens" you actually mean the entire population of BC, then I agree with you.

[verbatim]

My only complaint here is that I was born and raised in Elkford, BC (2 minutes away from the beautiful Elk) which btw was almost always dead quiet when I was fishing. Usually people go to the Fernie area to do their fishing. I had some of the best experiences of my life fishing in the area. I am only 23, and have only been in Alberta for 4 years to get my school and career and order. I travel back to visit my dad and little brother (11 years old) Whom is becoming very interested in fishing. (There is not too much to do in a small town). I have taken him out lot's and find it very sad that in order for me to fish in what was my own backyard for almost my whole life will cost me $40.00 to just get started for one day. I visit probably 15+ weekends a year, and still feel it's my home. I do agree the waters need to be protected, and that overfishing would cause a demise. However, i do feel un-decided. I do believe that persons born in the province should have the option to buy a resident(s) past resident license. On the contrary, I also have the privelage now to fish the bow and the like as an Albertan.

 

My head can't make up a solid decision, I guess we have to leave that to the suits. Bottom line, is it is absolutely breathtaking fishing in the valley, and is well worth the money. It's just hard paying to use your own backyard.. haha.

 

2.56667775 Cents.

[Tako]

I have to laugh at the guys who B&C about paying the money. I can only list about six CW in the whole province. There's more, but thats all I can hink of. I have fished none of them, in 21 years of fishing in BC. Go fish somewhere else!? If they made me pay $20/day to fish the Oldman, I'd go to the Castle. If they made me pay $20/day to fish Stauffer, I'd B&C (lol) and go fish Prairie. There's other rivers than the freakin Elk. Diversify, dammit.

If BC tried to make me (as a resident), pay a fee per day on some river I wanted to fish, I'd tell em to stick it and go fish somewhere else. There's a billion rivers and lakes out there, go fish em. But hey, if you like crowds, you like crowds????

[troutlover]

I can't BELIVE!!!!! im going to type this but........ what Tako says kinda makes some sense.

[Tako]

I can't BELIVE!!!!! im going to type this but........ what Tako says kinda makes some sense.

 

I ain't all dumb

[Guest Outcasts]

Same thing here verbatim, born and raised in bc until I was 13 and now im 23 putting alot of time crossing the border to see family, travel and of course fish. But i think my father might have found a solid solution...but it would take a little more work for some of you. My old man works for bctel and has valid living in alberta and bc making him a resident of both (helps with traffic violations too ) so where i live and where i work can differ but my residency can be both if im understanding it right but I know my old man never needs/complains about regs on the elk or any fisheries for that matter, but just so everyone here knows whenever we fish the bow together the pictures he takes back to his bc brethren make them as jealous as little school girls so the grass might not be greener on the other side of the bridge and sometimes paradise is right under your nose not $40 a day and 4 hours away!!!

[bcrules]

I voted no. 

 

I do not agree with the way this was done. The fact is that most people that live in the area are not huge fans of Calgary people or Vancouver people.  It is a city folk thing more than anything.I have friends from this area who live on the alberta side of the border and they are the ones I think it is most unfair to. I do feel bad because I can fish with them in the crowsnest river anytime but they have to go through a hassle to fish in the elk river or wigwam. We still fish both but more often I go there. I have met jerks from alberta, jerks from vancouver and jerks from all around here.  Also met lots of people I like from those places to.  Well noone from Vancouver yet but I'm sure they have some good people there too.

 

I think dune has it most right highlander - he has more of a stake in this area and our rivers than most of the population of your neck of the woods.  Growing up around here there has always been issues between locals and outsiders from alberta, bc or the united states.  But I think that most around here believe that the way this was done was pretty sneaky.  Some chuckle and don't feel too bad for the rich guys from calgary that got really upset, but I believ in what comes around goes around. I do think that there are some in this area that have benefitted from the change and there are some that have been hurt by it.  I don;t think it has made a big difference either way but I do think that the changes were not really needed and has definitly resulted in a worse relationship between the two neighbors.

[hydropsyche]

Regarding his statement on the source of the crowding (ALBERTA): Creel surveys suggested that angling pressure had increased ten-fold since the early 1980s, and that almost 80% of anglers surveyed originated from outside the province - 49% from the US and 28% from Alberta. That would suggest about 23% from BC and 28% from Alberta.

 

And before the regs, 78% of the anglers on the St. Mary's were locals. That pretty well negates all the pro reg arguments presented.

 

I always like to look at the extreems when gaugeing things. If it was all about the fish and the experience, then why not *ban* all non-residents no matter how fat their wallets are?

 

Think about it.

 

Do you think the guides would go for that? How about the Chamber of Commerce? How about Brian Chan? I'm sure a few residents would like it. Would those of you who are justifying BC fisheries managment practices agree? How about you "its only $20/day"'ers?

 

What's your breaking point? We all have one. Would you then join the ranks of the "whiners"?

 

Be honest.

 

And don't say thats ridiculous because it would never happen. Its an exercise in empathy.

 

Some peoples breaking point is based on principle (which isn't BS). To some, its based on how it impacts them personally (how much they can afford or how often they go). Everyone has a breaking point and its not right to dis someone because their breaking point is lower then yours.

[zed]

?