Anti Taser Crap

[reevesr1]

Wouldn't work very well... the pulsations required to bring fish in would definately fib the heart... not just maybe.

Oh, and 3 of my brothers are cops and one sister-in-law... If somebody pulls a knife on them or refuses to drop a WEAPON... they deserve what is coming, whether it is a mostly non-lethal tazer shot (yes my brothers elected to get hit with a taser during training) or something that is generally always lethal (bullet).

I don't care who that person is, like mentioned before you DO NOT refuse to give up a WEAPON when an Officer of the law tells you to. Period.

 

Agreed. It's when they don't deserve it that I have issues (though I completely agree that this is not the case in this instance)

 

I'm not as liberal as I may seem......Though I do like to stick it to Sun from time to time, don't know why, he seems like a nice enough guy. I just find it fun for some reason.

 

Hope we get to fish together one day Sun. I can promise it would be entertaining!!

[booboo]

Easy for you to judge the cop when you would never consider doing the job yourself. You have to put yourself in his or her shoes based upon all variables. Then throw an instance life or death decision in front of you. How much time are you going to go over your options? Balance the odds? Think of your wife and kids? Being a reasonable person yourself?

 

On the CBC this morning I heard they interviewed the 17 year olds dad. He discussed how innovated the kid was... How he probably only was stealing for booze or drug money and how he was smart enough to collect all the pot butts and put the leftovers together to make a full doobie.

 

Interesting family. If so I can see who failed the boy and it was not the system.

Slow down psychic.

 

Why he did the robbery is irrelevant. He could have just as easily been doing it because he was hungry. His father saying that it might have been for booze (he never mentioned drugs in the link you provided) is exactly what we should expect from a bad parent. He's blaming everything but his parenting.

 

Either way, each case should be viewed seperately. In this one, a 17 year old, who is 5'4" and 145 lbs is tasered and killed by cops because he didn't put his knife down right away. You call that getting what he deserves??? I don't.

 

You keep saying put yourself in the cops situation. Why not try to put yourself in the boys too.

[Smitty]

Sun:

 

Yeah - you summarized everything I said very well.

 

Just a comment about the - my impression anyways - your blanket generalization about kids and them doing drugs.

 

Don't mistake me; I am not one to excuse their behavior. But teach enough kids and have a thousand or so come through your classes in 10 years made me realize one thing; a kid can and ought to be forgiven for many a thing (I agree - to a point; it can only go so far before enough rope is given to hang themselves). What I am saying is a lot of kids "screw-up" while "growing-up" and what always frustrated me a little were fellow teachers who were happy to slap the "bad apple/seed" label and that's that - permanent. No consideration for a kid trying to change or do better. We all know the cliche of life being a journey whose arc is traced out by our choices. Lots of good ones, lots of bad ones.

 

Nor am I advocating mutual exclusivity; in other words its possible to teach kids to be responsible for their actions, step up and take the consequences for their actions, and forgive them. I am talking about "relatively" "small stuff" like pot and underage drinking. Lots of good parents out there too, and know what? Its not always the parents fault; sometimes teenagers are just teenagers. I had plenty of friends whose parents I thought had excellent parenting skills, but my friends, ah, still..."experimented".

 

It only gets to me when they (some kids and parents) have a sense of full entitlement and a zero sense of responsibility and obligation to their community and country at large. And yeah, there are lots them like that. I do believe that attitude is much more prevalent in the last 1-2 generations.

 

I get that I probably won't convince you (or you me for that matter). I guess the point of the reply is to say I hope there are enough open minded adults out there who realize their "label's" for teens need not be applied with permanent adhesive. I hope there's enough out there to at least let kids have the chance to prove themselves to do better when they do stupid things.

 

Well,... that was a good thread hi-jack.

 

Smitty

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Agreed. It's when they don't deserve it that I have issues (though I completely agree that this is not the case in this instance)

 

I'm not as liberal as I may seem......Though I do like to stick it to Sun from time to time, don't know why, he seems like a nice enough guy. I just find it fun for some reason.

 

Hope we get to fish together one day Sun. I can promise it would be entertaining!!

 

PM me and come over tonight for some perch fishing! Bring a taser and we can test out the electrofishing theory.

 

:-)

 

As for disagreeing... It seems every time you and I butt heads I look back and you and I seem to think pretty much the same just either express ourselves differently or are coming to the same conclusions from different directions.

 

Anyways...perch bite all day but pick up in the last hour or 2 before dark. Invite is open. Just need to check PM until we exchange phone #'s

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sun:

 

Yeah - you summarized everything I said very well.

 

Just a comment about the - my impression anyways - your blanket generalization about kids and them doing drugs.

 

Don't mistake me; I am not one to excuse their behavior. But teach enough kids and have a thousand or so come through your classes in 10 years made me realize one thing; a kid can and ought to be forgiven for many a thing (I agree - to a point; it can only go so far before enough rope is given to hang themselves). What I am saying is a lot of kids "screw-up" while "growing-up" and what always frustrated me a little were fellow teachers who were happy to slap the "bad apple/seed" label and that's that - permanent. No consideration for a kid trying to change or do better. We all know the cliche of life being a journey whose arc is traced out by our choices. Lots of good ones, lots of bad ones.

 

Nor am I advocating mutual exclusivity; in other words its possible to teach kids to be responsible for their actions, step up and take the consequences for their actions, and forgive them. I am talking about "relatively" "small stuff" like pot and underage drinking. Lots of good parents out there too, and know what? Its not always the parents fault; sometimes teenagers are just teenagers. I had plenty of friends whose parents I thought had excellent parenting skills, but my friends, ah, still..."experimented".

 

It only gets to me when they (some kids and parents) have a sense of full entitlement and a zero sense of responsibility and obligation to their community and country at large. And yeah, there are lots them like that. I do believe that attitude is much more prevalent in the last 1-2 generations.

 

I get that I probably won't convince you (or you me for that matter). I guess the point of the reply is to say I hope there are enough open minded adults out there who realize their "label's" for teens need not be applied with permanent adhesive. I hope there's enough out there to at least let kids have the chance to prove themselves to do better when they do stupid things.

 

Well,... that was a good thread hi-jack.

 

Smitty

 

I am 100% in favor of forgiveness and second chances. I kid or adult for that matter that changes for the better is super awesome. Labeling a kid bad should get a teacher fired. Seeing a kid that needs help and putting that help out there is their job. Then the kid had to want to change. That is where positive adult influences like teachers and parents come into play IMHO.

 

Those that don't change and blame everyone and everything in the world but themselves I have no time for.

 

I believe you and I both agree underage drinking and any drugs is not good. Should someone intentionally die for it... absolutely not. Should you get drunk and pull a knife on a cop...well yes for sure under most circumstances. That is where responsibility lies. With ones self and not others.

 

I think you and I are basically there. You may turn the other way when seeing drugs and alcohol. I don't turn away because there are a small percentage of kids that have those experiences ruin their lives for ever. I can not condone poor choices.

 

We all still have to remember that tasering is safer than shooting. The majority of tasered people do not die. The few that do for them anyways it is a shame. The fact is their own actions caused their own demise. That is a fact that is often ignored. Jump off a bridge you fall. Stick a knife in a cops face you either get shot or tasered.

 

Simple facts. This would be a great discussion to have in high school social studies. Ask the students pointed questions. Then have them read this thread and write a report about who is wrong or right. Chances are these days kids would say the cop was wrong and that kids just want to have fun.

[monger]

Pot experimenting...

 

I have a buddy who is a Psychiatrist who tells me there is a growing body of research that is showing that pot does some interesting permanent damage to brain cells. Just another thing to mess up kids/people with the illusion of short-term "happiness".

If people respected themselves more maybe it would spill out on to the rest of us. Now there is a good hijack topic

[mvdaog]

It appears that Sun, as well as a few other members, have a very limited and quite narrow idea/views about drug use. Less ignorant persons may understand that in many cultures throughout time the alteration of mental states is an important part of being a human being and growing as an individual. In our society we have selected alcohol to be the "acceptable" drug/toxin of choice to achieve that alteration, in the past (quite recently) opium and morphine and herbs and fungi were used to achieve these states. In more civilized cultures (the Chinese as far back as 2500 BC, the Egyptians even further) these euphoric, relaxed states were commonplace and sought after. In native tribes across the globe psychedelic drugs and others were used as part of ceremonial traditions and at times to heal people (even today most drugs are used for healing uses). Point being - that drug use has existed as long as mankind in various forms with different regulations. For someone to all of the sudden in their (less than 100 year existence) short life come to this planet and say that "anyone who does CERTAIN drugs THAT WE HAVE CHOSEN TO BE ILLEGAL is a bad person" sounds QUITE ridiculous. Even more ridiculous that someone who is 17 and drinks, compared to an 18 year old who drinks, is a "bad person" sounds even more ridiculous. And most ridiculous of all, to believe the ideologies that you've been subjected to in your upbringing that the only "drugs for good people" are the ones that European anglos brought/cultivated and the "drugs that are for bad people" are drugs originating from other cultures/races. I know you must feel that because you are such a "good" person you must have had some really great parents. IMHO your parents weren't very adept at informing you of the cultural and societal history of the human species and the importance of drug use throughout our existence. Your narrow-minded view of our current "western" ideologies being the be-all end-all of human civilization and what is ultimately going to be the ever-lasting society is unfortunate. Secondly, experts (doctors, physicians, nurses, EX-DRUG ADDICTS) will always tell you that alcohol and drug problems is a biochemical genetic problem, not anyones fault, not the parents or the persons. There are psycho-social influences of course but drug problems are a disease, not anyones fault. Why condemn these problems and not people with other diseases? If this was all due to their upbringing then the millions of children who went through the holocaust would have high rates of drug abuse, which is not seen, so it isn’t due to poor parenting or traumatic experiences or unhealthy childhoods that someone has drug and alcohol problems.

AS FOR "GOING AGAINST SOCIAL CONVENTION warranting death" – this barely warrants a mention, but how can you make such a horrendous, incredible statement like this???? Did Martin Luther King JR deserve to be tasered (die) for going against social convention? Did all of the people who have ever protested for freedom of speech, right to bear arms, 40 hour work weeks, child labour, equal women's rights, etc etc deserve to be tasered (die)?? what the hell are you talking about man? Of course you didn’t really mean that?!

As for being behind the most crooked part of society 110%, you must obviously not have any first hand experience of police lying through their teeth time and time again in court under oath to convict criminals. You obviously do not read the news where weekly there is another story of police here and in the US killing unarmed people (usually of minority). Shooting 45 times in the back, unarmed. Running people over, unarmed. Tasering and killing people, unarmed. It happens all the time. The people who strive to be police officers are at least partly searching for a sense of authority, wanting to control things, and that personality type (once that thirst has been quenched) usually leads to some messed up people doing messed up things to the people who cant defend themselves. Cops think they're so tough shooting black guys in the back, dropping off natives in the middle of Saskatchewan in the winter, when they have their guns out. Don’t get me wrong, there are some good cops out there trying to do good. But don’t mistake them for the majority and don’t forget and excuse their history and what they still do today. They were always on the front lines against the civil rights movement, and are the first tool in many fascist states to control the people. Like NWA said, F*** the police. Sorry to the good cops out there, but you're coworkers give you a bad name.

And lastly man, show some frickin empathy. At least some sympathy. The parents had a kid murdered. For whatever reason, no one deserves to see that happen in a lifetime. God man, you must live a sad angry resentful life if you walk around thinking everyones "bad." Your mother should have hugged you more in your life.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

This is a very touchy subject as everyone can tell but for the most part hard attacks are not usually part of grown people talking things through. I wish you could of met my mom and dad. They were great people in their own right and taught me to respect people. Many parents now miss that lesson when raising kids. I can answer some of your comments.

 

Wow...I am truly amazed you do believe this. Is meth addiction in your mind no bodies fault but genetics? You have to explain this to me.

 

QUOTE "AS FOR "GOING AGAINST SOCIAL CONVENTION warranting death" – this barely warrants a mention, but how can you make such a horrendous, incredible statement like this???? Did Martin Luther King JR deserve to be tasered (die) for going against social convention? Did all of the people who have ever protested for freedom of speech, right to bear arms, 40 hour work weeks, child labour, equal women's rights, etc etc deserve to be tasered (die)?? what the hell are you talking about man? Of course you didn’t really mean that?!"QUOTE

 

Wow...you are sure twisting this all out of wack! Bringing MLK into this discussion thread. Ummm... This is about a 17 year old pulling a knife on a cop.

 

QUOTE"As for being behind the most crooked part of society 110%, you must obviously not have any first hand experience of police lying through their teeth time and time again in court under oath to convict criminals. You obviously do not read the news where weekly there is another story of police here and in the US killing unarmed people (usually of minority). Shooting 45 times in the back, unarmed. Running people over, unarmed. Tasering and killing people, unarmed. It happens all the time. The people who strive to be police officers are at least partly searching for a sense of authority, wanting to control things, and that personality type (once that thirst has been quenched) usually leads to some messed up people doing messed up things to the people who cant defend themselves. Cops think they're so tough shooting black guys in the back, dropping off natives in the middle of Saskatchewan in the winter, when they have their guns out. Don’t get me wrong, there are some good cops out there trying to do good. But don’t mistake them for the majority and don’t forget and excuse their history and what they still do today. They were always on the front lines against the civil rights movement, and are the first tool in many fascist states to control the people. Like NWA said, F*** the police. Sorry to the good cops out there, but you're coworkers give you a bad name.

And lastly man, show some frickin empathy. At least some sympathy. The parents had a kid murdered. For whatever reason, no one deserves to see that happen in a lifetime. God man, you must live a sad angry resentful life if you walk around thinking everyones "bad." Your mother should have hugged you more in your life.

QUOTE

 

I am resentful of life??? Wow...read your own post. You hate everyone and then apologize for it. Unless I am mistaken, the empathy is there for everyone from what I can read but they also feel people have to face their own responsibility for their actions. To dwell on criminals biting the bullet however that occurs is a waste of most peoples time. Simple fact. The sympathy has to go mostly to the poor cop and his family that has to deal with this knife wielding idiot's stupid behavior. You also clearly have no respect for police so it make me wonder what happened to you now or earlier in life. Sounds like you could use a professional to talk it out with. Hopefully you are okay.

 

So far the majority of people tend to not follow your train of thought. Maybe it is because you have not fully read the thread or are fixated on certain things without seeing the whole picture.

 

You clearly believe people have no choice as to drink or do drugs and that they should get sympathy when their life falls apart. AA and other addiction councilors have always said the addict has to hit rock bottom and turn their own life around. People that coddle them only feed their addiction. And by the way...genetically some people are more prone to addictions than others with the exception of the really bad addicting drugs like meth. Your world studies on drugs in different cultures must of been quite an interesting University Course. I think you should visit the hospital ward where they bring the meth addicts in daily. You know they sell their own kids for sex just for a hit. I am sure you don't condone that but somehow drugs to you are okay. Studies also show that people can start on soft drugs and then often move up the ladder to worse and worse drugs. You quoting doctors etc. is incorrect.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[mvdaog]

1. Yes, there is much scientific evidence that drug abuse and drug problems are influenced by environmental factors, but on top of that, genetic factors as well. So, the statement that anyone/kid who uses drugs is bad is false, unless you believe someone with a disease is at fault for that disease and should be labelled bad. You could make an argument (not that strong) that SOME people who use these drugs we deem illegal are "bad" (these are moral principles what is good or what is bad so you'd have a hard time defining this, since no one has been able to in thousands of years, but I know what you mean) but you CANT label ALL as bad or good just because they've used drugs.

2. Im not twisting anything out of whack! Dont make statements that when extended to a larger picture or another situation dont hold up - you said it , the kid deserves what he got for going against social conventions. If you dont believe it in all situations dont mention it.

3. I dont hate much - cops, politicians, banks. The people that hold the working class and people who dont have any power down. The scum rises to the top.

4. I never made the statement that drugs are okay, nor prostituting children to get drugs. I was just informing you that you live in a society where certain drugs are legal and illegal - humans havent always lived under the same laws, thus all the sudden when a law was written on a piece of paper someday anyone using those drugs wasnt all the sudden a "bad person".

5. The "studies" you're referring to about people starting on soft drugs then moving up the ladder are erroneous. Everyone drinks water. Of course someone who snorts cocaine might be more likely to try somethin a bit harder later on - but again thats likely a personality/genetic thing, not the fact that the cocaine/marijuana changed the person to include something more powerful later on.

6. I was only being hard because its a direct insult to me or anyone else that knows someone that has tried drugs or known someone in the court system to label them as "bad". Explore the world a bit, you'd see that a lotta really good people have done drugs and been f**** over by the police and the courts.

7. As far as police risking their lives, the career was recently listed in between bakers and tailors on a list of most dangerous jobs. Thats just statistics, so dont watch so much TV about police risking their lives for us all the time. Bakers and Tailors.

[reevesr1]

3. I dont hate much - cops, politicians, banks. The people that hold the working class and people who dont have any power down. The scum rises to the top.

 

The man is holding me down! Those bastards.

 

Yawn.

[mvdaog]

From someone I know very well -

I started shooting heroin in 1972 and stopped January 28 1990. I've been in jail in four countries, I've done amphetamines, cocaine, etc. Ive been seriously involved with a 12 step program for 18 years. I dont consider myself or my friends as being "bad people". After all the drug use I may have became "warped and twisted", but not a "bad" person. God loves all of his kids. I heard an old guy say that, that God loves all his kids, even the f*** ups. Jesus didnt come for the saints he came for the prostitutes, the sinners, the degenerates. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus Christ, Matthew.

This is all a philosophical study of determinism. Is there free will? Read Ivan Karmazovs dissertation 'The grand inquisitor' from the Brothers Karmazov. I made some bad decisions, some really bad decisions, that Ill regret to my dying day. I hurt my mom and my dad, women that I loved and who loved me, my children. I think most people have done things they regret. Perhaps, me more than others. "God grant that they may seek to forgive, rather than to be forgiven". I think if you met a lot of my friends and knew what they were doing with their lives, helping others, you wouldn't be saying they were "bad people". You look at drug addicts and alcoholics, and what you see is what is going on outside on the street, but inside, really, theyre tormented people, sick people. Were all brothers and sisters man, and the bums on the god damn street are too. How bout some compassion, some love... by the way, some of my friends in these programs are cops, no ones immune from these problems, it doesnt make them bad guys or anything else. Its all unfortunate, by definition, a tragic, thing thats happened. Im sure the cop feels bad about what happened, along with everyone else involved.

[monger]

Thanks for the last post Mvdaog. I do think we are all inclined to be "bad" people. Some are just more inclined to hurt others while the rest of us wrestle with how selfish we will act on a daily basis.

 

Destructive behavior often has a root in someone's perception of their worth usually based on what has happened to them so far. There is also some evidence of direct genetic influence on anti-social behavior.

I wonder how many of you have considered spiritual warfare as a cause for undesireable behavior? There is a reason why 12 steps programs lead back to God. There are many things that Man in all his wisdom can't fix. Drugs (legal or not) can't fix broken people.

[Guest RedWiggler]

I still want to know how SUN would feel if it was his kid that tasered and then died?????????? I know he wont respond to me but Im guessing his take would be a little bit differant. I would also like to know how he would feel if his kid did drugs and someone told him the his kid was "BAD" because of it?? I am just guessing that his OPINION would be completely differant????? Everyone thinks there kid/kids is the best. With how cold his posts are about a 17 year getting killed I would have to assume that he has no kids or experience with a kid that got messed up with drugs?????????

[Smitty]

Mvdaog:

 

Careful. Once you start treading down the path of "blame my genes" and "I'm not a bad person for doing drugs", and moral relativism, then you're inviting yourself and others to live in a society that really no longer has any useful function or meaning for people. Its called anarchy.

 

Perhaps the person doing heroin for 18 years isn't bad. But the decisions to use drugs have bad consequences, don't you agree? Using drugs keeps criminals in business, and no one can dispute the fact that the illegal drug trade has lead to evil consequences, murder being the most obvious. So whether directly or indirectly, most hard core drug users contribute to the decay of an orderly and lawful society.

 

I think part of your argument that I have a problem with touches on the very things the Sun was talking about. The decay of moral and self responsibility; that there is something else always to blame life's problem's on, whether its your genes or parents.

 

That kind of blameless ideology is not just dangerous, its incredibly disrespectful. Here's how its disrespectful; it says nothing to all the people who overcame their own personal circumstances to become better people for themselves. Its disrespectful of people, who, despite their "genes", despite their "s*&tty upbringing" and "bad parents", despite the system of "corrupt cops" (and you're wrong to paint the majority of cops as bad), and despite the "man" out to get them, they triumph, they become their own success stories, they transcend all the reasons or excuses - whatever label you think applies - and they become successful, happy, contributing members of society.

 

Chris Gardner (Pursuit of Happyness) is someone I saw recently in person at our conference. Inspiring story, to say the least. A guy who has all the excuses and reasons to wallow in misery, but instead makes decisions and choices to pull himself up from his bootstraps, to make the best of his circumstances, and he ends up becoming a "winner". I am not talking about materially, but his spirit.

 

But Mvdaog, you would have us believe he had no free will in the matter? That his direct actions and decisions didn't lead to his success? When we excuse people's poor behavior, we've got no choice but to excuse their good behavior too. You can't have it both ways.

 

No, thankfully, that's not how it works. People are brought into this world under good circumstances and bad circumstances. It's not nature vs nuture, its both. Both have their place, you've weighted your argument far too much into the "helpless nuture its-my-genes" camp. I might as well not even try to teach kids about responsible decision making. Is that what you're saying?? If I am wrong - God I hope I am - , let me know.

 

Back to the original thread for a sec. That kid lived in the 21st century; he's saw enough tv, movies, and pop-culture to be perfectly aware of consequences of his decisions. Besides that, there was a point when he was sober, had a clear head and he made a decision to do drugs or not. He made a decision to carry a weapon, and then made another decision to brandish it at the police. The police made a decision to, and what we have is an unfortunate tragedy. Investigate the cops and punish them if it was warranted, but the sad fact is that at some point along the timeline, that kid made a choice to put himself there in the first place.

 

Smitty

P.S. RedWiggler; no doubt if it was my own kid or if it was Sun's kid, I be on the warpath for the cops. I'd want an investigation that would make the Warren commission and Watergate look like a card game. But I'd also be feeling fairly guilty, leaving myself wondering "was there anything I could have done better as a parent??" I think that's the way most people would feel...

[Mikey]

I say do away with tasers. It costs too much of my tax dollars to house criminals. Just use the gun bullets are cheaper. If you pull a knife on a cop or anyone as far as I am concerned you have just put your life on the line and deserve your fate.

[mvdaog]

Yea you are mistaken. I didnt say theres no free will, only its an age old discussion whether or not things happen due to free will or because they had no free will. I was just pointing out that there shouldnt be much of a discussion about why drug addicts come to be its just a fact that there are some, and I dont think it helps anyone to label them as bad or good based on their current or past situation. It is a glorious thing when people change their lives, that was sorta the point of my last post...these bad druggies actually are a lot of the time really good people who messed up. Reread what the guy said in my post - he hurt a lot of people made some bad choices. Hence yea, bad consequences. But still hes a great guy, and has helped a crap load of other people. So yea, I think I must not have made myself clear. I didnt mean theres no free will in the matter its just that its a pointless discussion of what is to blame, nature or nurture. Like you said I believe its a combination of both. But I was just trying to point out, no these guys arent bad people.

And yea, to the original post, I dont know if the cops did anything wrong here, I dont know really any of the facts. Seems like most the story in the news is "according to police reports". Giving them the benefit of the doubt, they tasered someone who was brandishing a knife, sounds better than shooting them and maybe they didnt do anything wrong. But really really unfortunate someone died and Im sure all involved feel like crap over it. It seems simple minded to start labelling someone after they die as bad and deservedly dead, and his parents as bad parents, and the cop as a good guy for killing someone accidently. Its just all unfortunate and tragic.

[SamIam]

This thread is going all over the place.....but I don't think Sun was saying that the kid deserved to be tazed for doing drugs. He was saying that the kid deserved to be tazed for not dropping his weapon. And yes....i think you can blame the parents somewhat. They didn't teach the kid to respect authority....and that is one of the responsibilites of raising kids. And anyone that thinks they could disarm a 17 year old boy with a knife without being cut, really doesn't have a clue. No police officer should have to try and do that.

[Guest RedWiggler]

[Guest Sundancefisher]

I still want to know how SUN would feel if it was his kid that tasered and then died?????????? I know he wont respond to me but Im guessing his take would be a little bit differant. I would also like to know how he would feel if his kid did drugs and someone told him the his kid was "BAD" because of it?? I am just guessing that his OPINION would be completely differant????? Everyone thinks there kid/kids is the best. With how cold his posts are about a 17 year getting killed I would have to assume that he has no kids or experience with a kid that got messed up with drugs?????????

 

I have no problem answering. I have no problem being honest about a touchy subject.

 

Everyones first expression of emotion in that instance is pain, anger and blame. I think everyone would blame the cop first until they found out the facts but even then coming to grips with it will take time. Eventually one has to come back to did my son pull a knife and threaten someone...a cop in this instance. I would eventually...hopefully sooner than later come to the realization that the police officer was only doing his job. I would also retreat into myself to think of where I went wrong as a parent. That is what a responsible parent does. Did I beat him, did I do drugs around him, was he a fetal alcohol baby, or did I provide a loving, safe and proper upbringing? If not the later I would be devastated. If all evidence points to a genetic or mental issue that was out of my control then that will also come to bear.

 

If my kid was doing drugs I would consider it bad behavior and he was "bad" to be doing it. We would have to struggle to find out why he turned to drugs and hopefully help him find the confidence and self worth to over come it before it got worse and worse. If he would not stop and he was hurting those he loved by his behavior he would eventually alienate himself from his family. I have been around drugs and left the scene. I have not experimented no needed to but had every opportunity in the world to as a result of living in a less than desirable neighborhood growing up. Peer pressure never came to be since my parents kept me in a crowd that believed in sports, fishing, camping and family fun. I never hung out with nor desired to hand out with people that could not have fun without outside drug influence. That is not just myself but many others. Some tried drugs and quickly realized how lame or stupid it was before they got hooked. After you are off drugs you are not a bad influence and in my books bad. While you are on drugs or doing drugs I would not trust you with watering plants while I watched.

 

Drugs bring only pain and conflict after a short period of use and for the long run also. Mvdaog...I am very happy to hear you kicked the habit and hope through finding yourself and god that that brings you what you need. Your comment about bad however begs the question...if while on drugs you hurt so many friends and family...why do you defend it?

 

Sun

 

P.S. Sorry I didn't respond earlier. We took the kids to the airshow in Lethbridge. Man I just love loud fast airplanes! YAHOO F18's

[mvdaog]

Sorry for the misunderstanding - it wasnt me who wrote that but someone close to me someone I know very well. I myself havent tried any drug including alcohol (except for mushrooms once hehe). Thats the point and I agree with you - drugs can make u do some really bad stuff... stuff people regret and that is hurtful. But still, and maybe its just a fundamental difference, I dont think someone is a bad person who uses drugs. I judge whether someone is bad or good based on their moral code and the value of their heart. I know plenty of people who use drugs who have a strong moral code they live by and an unbelievably good heart. Anyways, maybe its just a fundamental disagreement on what is good or bad and if so its pointless to keep talkin about it.

[Guest Sundancefisher]

Sorry for the misunderstanding - it wasnt me who wrote that but someone close to me someone I know very well. I myself havent tried any drug including alcohol (except for mushrooms once hehe). Thats the point and I agree with you - drugs can make u do some really bad stuff... stuff people regret and that is hurtful. But still, and maybe its just a fundamental difference, I dont think someone is a bad person who uses drugs. I judge whether someone is bad or good based on their moral code and the value of their heart. I know plenty of people who use drugs who have a strong moral code they live by and an unbelievably good heart. Anyways, maybe its just a fundamental disagreement on what is good or bad and if so its pointless to keep talkin about it.

 

No problem.

 

Adults can always disagree and then go fishing. I still think even someone smoking pot is exhibiting bad behavior. By smoking pot a person is condoning children to live in a grow ops, surrounded by parents that carry guns, probably smoke also, house is full of mold spores and sometimes violence. Those kids are ruined most often from there on in. Whether they lose their parents to jail, to another criminal or to more drugs still very sad. Then there is the guy who bought a house hoping to use it to retire when he is old. Now the pot growers have ruined him and his family. Then there is the bad element that also comes into the community when drugs are prevalent. There are the kids that steal to buy pot. There are the drug cartels that control many peoples lives. There are the people that do more smoking, more snorting and more injecting to the point they lose their homes, friends, families and jobs.

 

I recently had a friend who was doing pot. He then had an emotional breakdown and gravitated even more into the drug community. They always prey on the vulnerable. He started doing crack and started acting worse and worse. Started calling in sick and then went into rehab thanks to a caring company support system. He finished, got called by his druggy buddies and was rehooked in an instant. One more try and he failed as per the same result and then he lost his remaining friends, family and home. This was a smart, hard working caring friend before drugs. Illegal drugs CHANGE people and NEVER for the better.

 

Sometimes the people you may think are on drugs may be acting one way in front of you and totally different when away. I have known alcoholics that were the most pleasant people to chat with at the bar but when they went home and the last piece of pie was gone from the fridge they would beat their wife. The guy on drugs buying stuff from a drug dealer may be supporting a guy who takes advantage of meth addicts and their children... Everyone says the drug users are nice guys but they always forget the direct and indirect consequences to others since they do not have to face that sleazy side of the business. Life is alway great when people have the short sighted blinders on.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

[Guest Sundancefisher]

This thread is going all over the place.....but I don't think Sun was saying that the kid deserved to be tazed for doing drugs. He was saying that the kid deserved to be tazed for not dropping his weapon. And yes....i think you can blame the parents somewhat. They didn't teach the kid to respect authority....and that is one of the responsibilites of raising kids. And anyone that thinks they could disarm a 17 year old boy with a knife without being cut, really doesn't have a clue. No police officer should have to try and do that.

 

Exactly. The guy doing drugs needs mental help to get over the dependency. The weapon is the bad thing that resulted in the tazering.

[jimbow]

22 people have died in the last 5 years (i believe) from tazer incidents in Canada. clearly the use of tazers should be looked at more closely and a proper policy of when it is appropriate to use them be established.

 

imdao, tazers are overused plain and simple.

 

a non-english speaking, unarmed man who is kept for over 6 hours in an airport room is tazered 2 (or was it 3?...including once while on the floor incapacitated) times 30 SECONDS AFTER THE COPS ARRIVED ON THE SCENE and dies. seems very wrong.

 

an elderly man, laying in a hospital bed holding a pen knife (not sure how big but say average swiss army knife size) is tazered. seems very wrong.

 

vancouver transit cops tazer passengers who have no tickets and try to run away without paying. seems very wrong.

 

an unarmed, young, drunk woman is tazered while in custody in a cell in winnipeg. seems very wrong.

 

a 5'6", 110 lb teenager holding a knife is tazered and dies. wrong? well not sure about that but i cannot believe that the police could not disarm a little guy like that with a nightstick.

 

no doubt being a police officer is a dangerous job with lots of risks but it seems to me that the use of the tazer is becoming standard OP and is used instead of physically subduing a suspect.

 

when a person has a weapon i can see the use of the tazer being justified but if no weapon no justification.