Cuba And The U.s.a.

[fisher26]

To prevent a thread hijack and waste some winter time lets hear your thoughts on Cuba and the U.S.

 

So I'm trying to follow the thread of thought behind the Americans (no offense rickr) when they refuse to trade with Cuba.

 

Cuba is communist - So is China, and there the U.S. number one trade partner. Go into an American store look around you I guarantee you that over 90% of all the goods are from China.

 

Cuba is undemocratic - So is the number one energy trade partner of the U.S., Suadi Arabia.

 

We don't like Cuba because they don't like us - Most of the world dislikes the state right now, that’s not stopping the American trading with them.

 

We have a bad history with Cuba - During the war of 1812 Canada (technically British North America) burned down the Whitehouse. Thats not exactly a good history, when your northern neighbor burns down the icon of your country.

 

Now lets hear your thoughts

(NOTE: These are just observations and there could be "real" reasons why the U.S.A refuses to trade w/ Cuba)

[dryfly]

No offence to rickr, et al. I hope that the USA never changes its approach to Cuba. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen. As soon as Fidel goes to the big ashtray in the sky, things will change in a couple of years and Cuba will be open once more.

[reevesr1]

Absolutely no offense taken guys. Good subject.

 

So basically from what I understand, when Castro took over (and remember, the US backed Castro over Batista and then he pulled a bait and switch on us!), he nationalized everything. Lots of really rich Cubans and richer Americans lost a lot of moola over that whole deal. Many of the Cubans either left or were kicked out (not sure which) moved to Miami, and either stayed rich or got rich again. They then formed a very powerful lobby who exert mucho power over the politics of Miami, South Florida, and even US Policy. So as long as that group is still alive (and like Castro, that can't be for much longer), we won't trade with Cuba/Castro.

 

That and the fact they tried to move in Russian missiles.

 

By the way fisher26, hope you generate lots of discussion but if I don't like it, I'll just hijack this thread later anyway!

[bigbowtrout]

HA HA Dave's a Whore

[SanJuanWorm]

Wrong post cara del culo

[Weedy1]

Now lets hear your thoughts

(NOTE: These are just observations and there could be "real" reasons why the U.S.A refuses to trade w/ Cuba)

 

The states needs a quiet location to beat their prisoners of war and Cuba is close to home.

They wouldn't want any of their "own" people on that island now would they? Somebody might see something they're not supposed to. Therefore, NO TRADE FOR YOU!!!!

Crap, could you imagine what would happen if it really got out that Geneva Conventions were being busted left and right?

 

 

Your up Rickr.

[ladystrange]

all i know is the cuba missle crisis pissed off the states in a big way and brought in the trade embargo. as for why they havent changed that is unknown to me

[reevesr1]

The states needs a quiet location to beat their prisoners of war and Cuba is close to home.

They wouldn't want any of their "own" people on that island now would they? Somebody might see something they're not supposed to. Therefore, NO TRADE FOR YOU!!!!

Crap, could you imagine what would happen if it really got out that Geneva Conventions were being busted left and right?

Your up Rickr.

Dude, I was loadin' up the guns until I read that last part. You almost had me!!

[Inconnu]

You are right, Cuba took a lot of U.S. owned properties and business which is the root of the hard feelings on the part of the U.S.

 

They do not teach that we burnt anything in the U.S.......thus the saying that the U.S. has never been invaded except by those "poutine" guys!!

[Weedy1]

Dude, I was loadin' up the guns until I read that last part. You almost had me!!

 

And then there was Operation Northwoods. Kill your own, blame your own, then shoot up Cuba. Brilliant plan.

[reevesr1]

You just tryin to fire me up? It's not like it's hard enough for me to defend our foreign policy now, you gotta dredge up stuff from the 60s? And it's not like they ever followed through with Northwoods anyway....

 

And writer1, I don't think a group of drunk Canadians getting lost, finding themselves in Washington then accidentally burning down the White House is something you guys really need to be proud of!

 

If I knew of any skeleton's in the closet of Canada, I'd surely bring them up now. But alas, my country didn't teach anything about your country, except that you like beer. Pity.

[dryfly]

To satisfy everyone's need for more information--and at great personal sacrifice--adc and I are going to the Bay of Pigs on March 2, 2008. We will do intensive ground investigations and report back. We've been advised that we will be doing intense reconnaissance in La Salinas in small two-man skiffs armed with 8-wt fly rods.

 

Will advise.

[cheeler]

I don't know what the current case is under Bush, but when I was in there in 2003, Cuba wasn't completely cut off from the US. Families were still allowed to fly in from Miami, and there were tourists skipping customs scrutiny by going through Puerto Rico, although the majority of tourists were Canadian or European. There was also a Texan I met in the cigar shop in Havana on an "agricultural mission".

 

Cuba is missing out on some basics, but it's more to do with what their economy is based on (tourism and sugar for the most part) rather than its having an embargo from one neighbor, which the rest of the world ignores. There are other countries in the region with more drugs, crime, and Disneyesque like tourism cities than Cuba (that said Cubans still don't have basic rights and freedoms). I enjoyed travelling to Havana to see an old Spanish colonial city, not a sea of extravagant hotels.

[reevesr1]

I don't know what the current case is under Bush, but when I was in there in 2003, Cuba wasn't completely cut off from the US. Families were still allowed to fly in from Miami, and there were tourists skipping customs scrutiny by going through Puerto Rico, although the majority of tourists were Canadian or European. There was also a Texan I met in the cigar shop in Havana on an "agricultural mission".

 

Cuba is missing out on some basics, but it's more to do with what their economy is based on (tourism and sugar for the most part) rather than its having an embargo from one neighbor, which the rest of the world ignores. There are other countries in the region with more drugs, crime, and Disneyesque like tourism cities than Cuba (that said Cubans still don't have basic rights and freedoms). I enjoyed travelling to Havana to see an old Spanish colonial city, not a sea of extravagant hotels.

 

It is very telling that even though there have not been any real hostilities between Cuba and the US for 40 yrs or so, there are still no official relations. Obviously this has not just been a right wing policy. If it were, then relations would have been normalized during Carter or even Clinton. From what I can remember (I was aged 17-21 during Carter, and therefore drunk) there was never any real initiatives to do so during either administration. Speaks volumes to the political might of the Cuban exiles.

 

But I do think that once Casto has passed and Bush is out of office, relations will normalize. Because really, the embargo makes no sense at all anymore and probably hasn't for 20 yrs, at least. Once it is lifted, expect LOTS of Texans on "agricultural missions" and a sea of extravagant hotels!

 

Edit: and if I can get to Cuba via PR, maybe I could do a bit of reconnaissance there as well. I know it would be a sacrifice, but one I'm willing to make. Bonefish, anyone?

[SanJuanWorm]

Yes but Cuba and Venezuela are allies so they'll hang off Venezuela's hate for the US.

[cheeler]

But I do think that once Casto has passed and Bush is out of office, relations will normalize. Because really, the embargo makes no sense at all anymore and probably hasn't for 20 yrs, at least. Once it is lifted, expect LOTS of Texans on "agricultural missions" and a sea of extravagant hotels!

 

The hotels are still slowly being built up in Varadero, but with money from Europe. They even have a fledgling oil industry, but it mostly produces low grade oil, although they're trying to produce power out of the gas that's coming off of the wells. Funny sight seeing a brand new F350 burning down the road, passing old 50's era Chevys and European compacts!

[Weedy1]

And it's not like they ever followed through with Northwoods anyway....

 

Not in Cuba anyways............

[ladystrange]

i kind of like the status quo. sorry rickr, for the most part, many of the americans i have met (i lived there also) are loud and obnoxious. las vegas is a nightmare. and everywhere they travel, they let you know where they are from, whether you care or not.

[KingSalmon]

i kind of like the status quo. sorry rickr, for the most part, many of the americans i have met (i lived there also) are loud and obnoxious. las vegas is a nightmare. and everywhere they travel, they let you know where they are from, whether you care or not.

 

Well put

[reevesr1]

Yes but Cuba and Venezuela are allies so they'll hang off Venezuela's hate for the US.

Cuba and Venezuela are allies, or Castro and Chavez? Once Castro is out, is there anyone in Cuba to take his place and maintain the current regime? I don't know the answer to that. But my bet is that once Castro is out, they will turn in to something other than communist. You don't here of the "party" like you do in China. A change in leadership in China doesn't mean a change in system. I doubt the same is true of Cuba.

[reevesr1]

i kind of like the status quo. sorry rickr, for the most part, many of the americans i have met (i lived there also) are loud and obnoxious. las vegas is a nightmare. and everywhere they travel, they let you know where they are from, whether you care or not.

You know, I wrote a big long reply to the above and decided it wasn't worth it other than to say that no matter how many rude Canadians I meet (and the proportion of jackass canadians is the same as the proportion of jackass americans, or mexicans, or french, or whatever) I would never, ever, in a public forum call them loud and obnoxious nor call one of their cities a nightmare (particularly since I think it is Calgary's #1 travel destination?)

 

I tried to make an actual reply to fisher's question about Cuba, from my perspective. I had a bit of fun with Weedy. Don't know what you expected to accomplish with the rude American comment, but offense taken.

 

Edit: But what the hell, KingSalmon agrees with ya, so I guess your comment was ok (insert dripping sarcasm emoticon here)

[reevesr1]

Not in Cuba anyways............

So really, the first I ever heard of Northwood is what I read tonite. Chilling. But to put it in the context of the times, those people were really, really scared. They honestly thought getting blown up by Russia (like EVERYBODY blown up) was a real and maybe even imminent possibility and that Cuba was the possible jumping off point. I am in absolutely no way justifying the means, but they didn't follow through with it. Cooler minds and all that (or at least I fervently hope).

[Weedy1]

So really, the first I ever heard of North wood is what I read tonite. Chilling. But to put it in the context of the times, those people were really, really scared. They honestly thought getting blown up by Russia (like EVERYBODY blown up) was a real and maybe even imminent possibility and that Cuba was the possible jumping off point. I am in absolutely no way justifying the means, but they didn't follow through with it. Cooler minds and all that (or at least I fervently hope).

 

A lot of us were the people of those times, myself included. I remember having the drills in school, 1969 grade 1. Pretty scary *hit for a young child. I'm glad cooler minds prevailed as I think they do a lot more often than many of us realize.

 

BTW, I'm sure every civilized country has pulled a Northwoods or two in their time.

 

On a similar but somewhat sideways topic/hijack, anybody know why Canada has become the world's 6th largest arms supplier?

[lonefisher]

Just a question with complete respect and no offense intended but why does Cuba allow Guantanamo Bay? And how does USA get away with having it? I know only the basics of this topic so I appologize if this is a dumb question.

 

edit ok so I went to wikipedia and I kinda understand the cuban view on the occupation and the US view on the lease....... but what would be the common western world view on this be?

[dryfly]

"anybody know why Canada has become the world's 6th largest arms supplier?"

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

But I'd guess that the gap between 1, 2, 3 and #6 is huge. Anyone have the numbers?