reevesr1 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Sun, I have been "trained" in University as well, with honors and everything. Big deal. That and $2.50 will get me a coffee at Starbucks. CO2 is not pollution. Granted. So what? We are releasing it into the atmosphere at a much higher than natural rate. It could very well be contributing to a unnatural heating of our planet. You say that is is a blip in geologic time. Again, granted. So tell me when I should be alarmed. At what rate would it be too high? Who decides? From what I understand temperature is rising at long term historic rates (and I mean geologic time). Wouldn't it be a bit naive to think that we don't have something to do with it. Odds would be pretty small that we just happen to be living in a time of historic rising temp combined with a large unnatural release of CO2 and the two not be somehow related. I've spent most of my life troubleshooting equipment, processes, systems. I've done reliability studies, risk assessments, hazard analysis. I like to think from these I have developed a pretty open mind about things as well. But I also have developed a sense (and I grant that it is unscientific) a sense of when things feel right. Not unerring, but pretty accurate (should I call it a model?). I have learned that when things seem too coincidental they almost always are. The rising CO2 levels from burning fossil fuels combined with rapid temperature rise is pretty coincidental. I do agree that this does not necessarily mean the two are related. Again, as I said before, my bet is they are. Finally, just because the media believes it doesn't make it wrong. (Though having the media agree with it certainly detracts from it's credence). Edit: Oh and the risk management part of your post about not leaving the garage and all that: Risk is a combination of severity, likelihood, and number of people affected. In this case, likelihood is certainly still being debated. Severity as well, but it could be catastrophic (or multi-catastrophic depending how big your matrix is). Number of people affected is everyone. So how long do I wait for the debate to end so I can assign an intelligent number to likelihood? How many studies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvdaog Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 "Philosophy is not science but the art of understanding mind and soul. Please convince other pro-global warming zealots to realize this and then honest debate can happen." I don't know how many of the users have taken any courses in philosophy (particularly logic, which seems to be absent in many of the arguments here) but it's sad that philosophy has taken a non-existant role in all of our educations. Straight from the almighty source of knowledge (wikipedia)- 'Though no single definition of philosophy is uncontroversial, and the field has historically expanded and changed depending upon what kinds of questions were interesting or relevant in a given era, it is generally agreed that philosophy is a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions, or theories. Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy. Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy. Some think that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself.'.....sounds a lot like....science? To most people familiar with philosophy, science is in fact only a branch of philosophy. Many people confuse philosophy with another branch of philosophy, that which deals with 'understanding mind and soul'. All of the sound reasoning and logic, that science could not be possible without, is due to philosophy, and without philosophy science would not have had a chance to evolve to the power it is now, nor could it have seperated itself from religion like it (fortunately) has. So... philosophy is not science, but science is philosophy, and please convince other anti-global warming zealots to realize this and then honest debate can happen. Just jokin, but really. Everyone should get a used textbook for some introductory logic course, so that these wierd arguments that fail in so many ways won't keep happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayDoh Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 The weatherman got the chinook wrong this week...do you really expect he can tell how harsh this winter is gonna be? Damn you David Spence!! Without question the planet is warming, as someone stated, just look at the glaciers, case closed. I also agree that the media has confused the issue, which has caused so much disbelief. Its irrelevant to the fact that 'Global warming' is happening, whether or not Humans have caused or influenced it. Transportation only accounts for 1/3rd of the Co2 emissions, the rest was burned so we could all have computers, ovens, industrial factories, hospitals, ect, ect. Burning coal is not something we are any where near being able to do without. Until a viable mass power source, or we run out of trees, coal, wildlife and burn the planet bare, nothing is going to change significantly soon. However, it will soon become a matter of survival and I believe our impact on the planet is relatively minor. The earth has belched Sulfuric acid, or Methane gas and other nasties into the skies and life still survived. Peak oil is going to cause the big changes I predict (shaking magic 8-ball). As the price of oil increases, the rate at which it is spent will decrease. Most models are now at the next 20 years being peak years, and our supply will fail to meet increased demand. Sorry China, doesn't look like you'll be needing those drivers licences after all, lol. Almost 1/3rd of Chinese people have drivers licences now, lets all pray the don't all get cars soon. Weather prediction is one of the most challenging tasks out there. Computer models are great tools, but they are not intended to give actual predictions, but calculate a number of possible outcomes based on current parameters. Recently a scientist demonstrated with a computer model how a 'magnetic polarization flip' of the planet could happen, since its also been proved to have happened many times, on average of once every 200k years or something. Now that means actually very little in terms of predicting a date, even though we're far over due for one and several 'weak spots' in the earth magnetic field are present, which precede a 'flip' (north-south). Yet its certian to happen again, and sooner then later. I can go to the government's weather radar site and see for myself that rain is coming my way, yet most times the jet stream kicks it before it get to me. But as the saying goes, its better to be safe then sorry/stupid, which is why I prepare for it and avoid the softball hail stones smashing everything out in the open. Global warming/climate change is no different really, the facts are pretty clear and we should prepare and adjust accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 "Philosophy is not science but the art of understanding mind and soul. Please convince other pro-global warming zealots to realize this and then honest debate can happen." I don't know how many of the users have taken any courses in philosophy (particularly logic, which seems to be absent in many of the arguments here) but it's sad that philosophy has taken a non-existant role in all of our educations. Straight from the almighty source of knowledge (wikipedia)- 'Though no single definition of philosophy is uncontroversial, and the field has historically expanded and changed depending upon what kinds of questions were interesting or relevant in a given era, it is generally agreed that philosophy is a method, rather than a set of claims, propositions, or theories. Its investigations are based upon rational thinking, striving to make no unexamined assumptions and no leaps based on faith or pure analogy. Different philosophers have had varied ideas about the nature of reason, and there is also disagreement about the subject matter of philosophy. Some think that philosophy examines the process of inquiry itself.'.....sounds a lot like....science? To most people familiar with philosophy, science is in fact only a branch of philosophy. Many people confuse philosophy with another branch of philosophy, that which deals with 'understanding mind and soul'. All of the sound reasoning and logic, that science could not be possible without, is due to philosophy, and without philosophy science would not have had a chance to evolve to the power it is now, nor could it have seperated itself from religion like it (fortunately) has. So... philosophy is not science, but science is philosophy, and please convince other anti-global warming zealots to realize this and then honest debate can happen. Just jokin, but really. Everyone should get a used textbook for some introductory logic course, so that these wierd arguments that fail in so many ways won't keep happening. mvdoag, I tried to bring existentialism into the argument, but no one bit! Also, ever notice how the "zealots" almost always tend to take the side of an argument other than the side you (not you personally) are on? Is that a law of nature or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 did anybody else hear that calgarians 2nd favourite hockey team is the leafs?! that's totally rad cause i love the leafs. i think this year's leafs team is going all ... the ... way! definitely the best hockey team of all time. go leafs go!! who's with me? Canada's team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 did anybody else hear that calgarians 2nd favourite hockey team is the leafs?! that's totally rad cause i love the leafs. i think this year's leafs team is going all ... the ... way! definitely the best hockey team of all time. go leafs go!! who's with me? Canada's team! Rich, I was pretty excited when I saw your name as most recent post. Thought to myself, "this oughta be fun, wongrs will come armed with logic, facts, and a leave the world in a better place than you found it attitude. More fireworks!!" Instead, I get a blatant appeal to the most base Canadian emotion, ie, your favorite hockey team. An unabashed effort to hijack the post. Spoilsport. Oh well, this thread has probably run its course anyway. Fun while it lasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wongrs Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Rich, I was pretty excited when I saw your name as most recent post. Thought to myself, "this oughta be fun, wongrs will come armed with logic, facts, and a leave the world in a better place than you found it attitude. More fireworks!!" Instead, I get a blatant appeal to the most base Canadian emotion, ie, your favorite hockey team. An unabashed effort to hijack the post. Spoilsport. Oh well, this thread has probably run its course anyway. Fun while it lasted. i actually despise the leafs. actually, it's leaf fans that really get to me. i just think it's hilarious to play the leafs card in alberta and see people's reactions. most people just ignore me, some try to change the subject and some get really defensive about it. this is the 3rd time i've mentioned the leafs in the last few weeks on FFC and there hasn't been a single reply. i can see that the FFC crowd is the ignoring type! what do you guys want to talk about now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailhead Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Last night I dreamed I was a Cutthroat Trout, So am I a Cutthroat Trout dreaming I'm a man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnF Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Last night I dreamed I was a tampon. And I invented the string theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teck71 Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 Last night I dreamed I was a tampon. And I invented the string theory. That is funny as hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeler Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 did anybody else hear that calgarians 2nd favourite hockey team is the leafs?! That's because Saskatchewan doesn't have a team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesr1 Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Last night I dreamed I was a tampon. And I invented the string theory. Lynn, I pinkie swear that I held out as long as I could. But I had to: I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin: String Theory and Black Holes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 did anybody else hear that calgarians 2nd favourite hockey team is the leafs?! Did that fact come from a recent poll or something? Probably 'cause of all them damn easterners migrating west to get rich quick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnF Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Lynn, I pinkie swear that I held out as long as I could. But I had to: I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin: String Theory and Black Holes That is seriously the best threadjacking post ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladystrange Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Lynn - eewwww. nice hijack tho I tried to bring existentialism into the argument, but no one bit! i bite... er, i mean bit philosophical movement centered on individual existence: a philosophical movement begun in the 19th century that denies that the universe has any intrinsic meaning or purpose. It requires people to take responsibility for their own actions and shape their own destinies. but just like everyone else, i dont want to take responsibility. it's god's fault, not mine. stupid weather is keeping me from fishing my new rod... and that's god's fault. or it could be global warming. or a geological progression since specific record taking has only been done for a very short period of geological time. just like when the deserts of africa were lush tropical forests and there were no polar ice floes, or like the time when some retarded glacier moved down to Okotoks and deposited a rock for the hell of it when half the world was covered with ice and then started receeding from no intervention from humans whatsoever but some how, every cow and termite on earth farted at once and shifted the axis of the planet and warmed the globe by 10 degrees. the way to solve global warming... STOP FARTING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 i've tried LS...Lord knows i have...it's just so damn fun to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladystrange Posted December 6, 2007 Share Posted December 6, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sundancefisher Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I must say I find those moving pics super funny. That being said I did find this interesting point on global warming... I found this very interesting list. Apparently there are two growing glaciers in Canada even. http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm I was not aware there were so many glaciers being studied that were growing. Cheers. Sun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimD Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 I must say I find those moving pics super funny. That being said I did find this interesting point on global warming... I found this very interesting list. Apparently there are two growing glaciers in Canada even. http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm I was not aware there were so many glaciers being studied that were growing. Cheers. Sun Ok, so two are growing, how many glaciers are shrinking in Canada? What is the ratio of growing to shrinking? Regards, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 more water = more fishing spots...bring on the GW... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sundancefisher Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 more water = more fishing spots...bring on the GW... lol TimD. The ratio would be interesting to know insofar as one would have to have the historical data. Just comparing glaciers with historical data could prove interesting. I believe you miss the critical point in all of this. Global warming zealots all say the sky is falling the sky is falling. They and the media lead everyone to believe that there is a total and global warming in effect. They say that "the Earth's surface temperature is rising fast" and yet they never stop to say why some areas are getting colder and some are the same and rarely ever stop to say where the temperature data comes from. Most temperature data used by the pro side says the temperature has risen significantly over the past 25 years. Unfortunately they fail to clearly state that most data comes from meteorological stations. Those stations were situated for the most part within airports. Those airports have expanded hugely as well as cities have surrounded them. As everyone knows the temperature in the downtown core is higher than the burbs. The amount of asphalt has also increased. Therefore a significant amount of the temperature increase can be attributed to this micro climate influence. But...essentially you must ask...since the whole world is NOT increasing in temperature...why not? Hmmm... Maybe a lot more going on than meets the eye. Rural and studies on University campuses do not show that same trend. Cheers. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladystrange Posted December 9, 2007 Share Posted December 9, 2007 there have also been a few studies that are looking at major city centres in europe and in the americas and comparing the temps from now to 150 years ago. the european cities have not shown a significant change in either direction, where as the NA cities have all increased. goes back to the concret, rock and asphalt absorbing heat. many european cities have had rock/stone structures and road ways for hundreds of years where as in the US the popluation has grown from 100,000 ish to 330 million in 150 years and only started using when the europeans colonized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimD Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 lol TimD. The ratio would be interesting to know insofar as one would have to have the historical data. Just comparing glaciers with historical data could prove interesting. I believe you miss the critical point in all of this. Global warming zealots all say the sky is falling the sky is falling. They and the media lead everyone to believe that there is a total and global warming in effect. They say that "the Earth's surface temperature is rising fast" and yet they never stop to say why some areas are getting colder and some are the same and rarely ever stop to say where the temperature data comes from. Most temperature data used by the pro side says the temperature has risen significantly over the past 25 years. Unfortunately they fail to clearly state that most data comes from meteorological stations. Those stations were situated for the most part within airports. Those airports have expanded hugely as well as cities have surrounded them. As everyone knows the temperature in the downtown core is higher than the burbs. The amount of asphalt has also increased. Therefore a significant amount of the temperature increase can be attributed to this micro climate influence. But...essentially you must ask...since the whole world is NOT increasing in temperature...why not? Hmmm... Maybe a lot more going on than meets the eye. Rural and studies on University campuses do not show that same trend. Cheers. Kevin Kevin, I will help answer my own question: There are like 10,000 glaciers on Baffin Island - it has 1/6 of Canada's total glacial area. So based on that there are maybe 60,000 glaciers and you only found two that are growing. That is not very good evidence for the case you are trying to make. You mention above that some areas are getting colder which ones are they? You say that the world is not increasing in temperature, could you please tell me where you are getting that data? Regards, Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sundancefisher Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 Kevin, I will help answer my own question: There are like 10,000 glaciers on Baffin Island - it has 1/6 of Canada's total glacial area. So based on that there are maybe 60,000 glaciers and you only found two that are growing. That is not very good evidence for the case you are trying to make. You mention above that some areas are getting colder which ones are they? You say that the world is not increasing in temperature, could you please tell me where you are getting that data? Regards, Tim If you have not stopped and thought about looking up the contradictory information then I might as well stop cause your mind is made up. The fact is there is no concrete information period either way. If you can admit that then we can go onto individual studies. Of those 10,000...how many do they have concrete historical data on ice area, thickness and growth or lack thereof. We all know there are lots of glaciers. There are also lots of trees. One can only study a few in great detail and saying two dying trees in a forest of thousand does not mean the extinction of the forest. By putting a long term forcast based upon this scenario is taking science to a useless path as it is not science but pure guessing and speculation. Same goes for glaciers. Answer me this if you can...why are any glaciers growing in Canada at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulltrout Posted December 10, 2007 Share Posted December 10, 2007 anyway we can lock this thread dave?...it's just the same stuff over and over again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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