East Slopes Today And Tomorrow

[jpinkster]

I really care about the east slopes, and I know a lot of you in this space do too.

 

Check this out:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-Hurymu1vf0RU5wMEFXcm5qT0k/view

 

This is great work, and I hope it leads to positive change for our native species!

[bcubed]

You're connected enough to government Jordan for me to ask...will it make any changes?

[jpinkster]

You're connected enough to government Jordan for me to ask...will it make any changes?

Under the previous government, no.

Under the current government, maybe.

 

Minister Phillips really seems to have a good understanding of these kinds of issues. Some of their decisions around flood mitigation for Calgary were made with environmental considerations in mind. This current government has spent a lot of time talking the talk, but these kinds of things are opportunities to walk the walk.

[jpinkster]

The shared file isn't working anymore because apparently this was released before it should have been. I'm hoping it is reopened to the public soon.

[jpinkster]

The link for this is back up again:

 

https://albertawilderness.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/easternslopescommunique.pdf

[jpinkster]

And the corresponding news article:

 

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/coalition-calls-for-limits-on-off-road-vehicle-use-in-alberta

[BurningChrome]

I wish the news article was more reflective of the shared file. While the shared file talks more about coexistence the Herald article seems intent on creating conflict between the user groups.

[jpinkster]

I wish the news article was more reflective of the shared file. While the shared file talks more about coexistence the Herald article seems intent on creating conflict between the user groups.

That's the sexy headline. You can hardly blame media for doing what media does.

[BurningChrome]

Well, I'd say that Collette has a certain agenda. I know several OHV user groups who've offered to talk to her about responsible OHV use and management plans but she has never taken any of us up on it. When you only ever present one side of a story it's difficult to think you aren't writing your bias instead of reporting objectively.

 

As I posted on FB, this is something that should be looked at for Alberta:

http://www.nohvcc.org/docs/miscellaneous-files/ohvguidelines.pdf?sfvrsn=0

[jpinkster]

Yesterday Kevin Van Tighem (former top boss for Banff National Park) was on the radio to talk about this. I think Kevin covers nearly every aspect of this issue in his interview: http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2682551066

[Gil]

I wish the news article was more reflective of the shared file. While the shared file talks more about coexistence the Herald article seems intent on creating conflict between the user groups.

 

It is hard to avoid conflict when one of those user group is destroying what some of us love. Time for significant changes...

[BurningChrome]

It is hard to avoid conflict when one of those user group is destroying what some of us love. Time for significant changes...

Certain members of a user group. And yes, you can absolutely approach something like this without instantly going to conflict.

[ÜberFly]

Marc, how do "we" control for those certain members? Obviously education isn't working? Enforcement would be AWESOME but unlikely? Having designated trails doesn't seem to be working? The few "asshats" ruin it for others (not only within the offloading community, but other groups as well)... I applaud groups like yours, but here lies the problem...

 

Or is my perspective still skewed?!

 

 

Certain members of a user group. And yes, you can absolutely approach something like this without instantly going to conflict.

[BurningChrome]

Well, there's no easy solution otherwise it probably would've been implemented by now It's been a wild west free for all for so long that it'll take time to change peoples' attitudes. Anyone expecting change to occur overnight is living in lala land. And there is currently no education for it to be working.

 

Right now before you can get a hunting, boating, or driver's license you need to take a course or pass an exam but you can go out and buy a quad or bike then go out with it the next day. Licensing with a course requirement that includes trail ethics and safety would be a good start. You'd even get places like Blackfoot Motorsport on board if they could administer the courses and exams and make a bit of profit on it. Some of the license and course fees would go back into the resource in the form of rehabilitation, creating new trails that are sustainable, building bridges over water crossings, and of course enforcement. You could probably have that fall under the current ACA.

 

There will always be asshats no matter what. We have speed limits but you still get guys doing 150 down Deerfoot. We have fishing regs but you still have guys keeping more than the limit or fishing closed waters. We have hunting regs but you still get guys poaching or hunting on private land. That's the role of enforcement and hopefully if you have a course and licensing scheme set up you'll have more enforcement. And finally, just like with the sad state of fines for poaching, you need enforcement with teeth. Significant fines with the ability to impound vehicles.

 

This is all stuff I've thought about and my off road group discusses regularly but nobody listens. The current "management" of trails is binary - either open or closed. As soon as there's a problem they simply close a designated trail which concentrates users into smaller areas. At that point guys get fed up with congestion on the designated and look to make their own trails. So what needs to happen is a good (as in fun), sustainable trail system needs to be set up before you take away existing trails.

[ÜberFly]

There is always a lot of chatter on the redneck board (and I'm sure similar sites) about this exact thing... Too much regulation, too much government involvement, blah, blah blah... How to garner support is the challenge?

 

 

Right now before you can get a hunting, boating, or driver's license you need to take a course or pass an exam but you can go out and buy a quad or bike then go out with it the next day. Licensing with a course requirement that includes trail ethics and safety would be a good start. You'd even get places like Blackfoot Motorsport on board if they could administer the courses and exams and make a bit of profit on it. Some of the license and course fees would go back into the resource in the form of rehabilitation, creating new trails that are sustainable, building bridges over water crossings, and of course enforcement. You could probably have that fall under the current ACA.

[albertatrout]

Well, there's no easy solution otherwise it probably would've been implemented by now It's been a wild west free for all for so long that it'll take time to change peoples' attitudes. Anyone expecting change to occur overnight is living in lala land. And there is currently no education for it to be working.

 

Right now before you can get a hunting, boating, or driver's license you need to take a course or pass an exam but you can go out and buy a quad or bike then go out with it the next day. Licensing with a course requirement that includes trail ethics and safety would be a good start. You'd even get places like Blackfoot Motorsport on board if they could administer the courses and exams and make a bit of profit on it. Some of the license and course fees would go back into the resource in the form of rehabilitation, creating new trails that are sustainable, building bridges over water crossings, and of course enforcement. You could probably have that fall under the current ACA.

 

There will always be asshats no matter what. We have speed limits but you still get guys doing 150 down Deerfoot. We have fishing regs but you still have guys keeping more than the limit or fishing closed waters. We have hunting regs but you still get guys poaching or hunting on private land. That's the role of enforcement and hopefully if you have a course and licensing scheme set up you'll have more enforcement. And finally, just like with the sad state of fines for poaching, you need enforcement with teeth. Significant fines with the ability to impound vehicles.

 

This is all stuff I've thought about and my off road group discusses regularly but nobody listens. The current "management" of trails is binary - either open or closed. As soon as there's a problem they simply close a designated trail which concentrates users into smaller areas. At that point guys get fed up with congestion on the designated and look to make their own trails. So what needs to happen is a good (as in fun), sustainable trail system needs to be set up before you take away existing trails.

 

Coming from someone who has a very negative view of the ATV'ers as of late, it would be nice to hear of some in that community call for closures in a few very sensitive areas in order to show there is some level of respect. I'm thinking areas like along Racehorse Creek in the south of better yet the Mackenzie Creek valley in central Alberta (it is a disgusting mess of unsustainable trails in there). If the ATV community wants to be part of the solution, they should bring forward some sensitive areas to close down on their own. I don't see it happening, I expect to see a lot of total closures coming in the near future as the damage is present, it is extreme, and the ATV community still actively promotes use of these badly damaged areas. I respect where you are coming from BurningChrome, but after reading through the mud and snow forum and looking at the recent youtube videos from the Alberta atv groups Id say we are a long ways off from having support for treading lightly and using any level of respect.

[SilverDoctor]

At the last round-table Fisheries meeting, they stated that sensitive streams like the Ghost-Waiparous area had been filmed from the air to survey damage from OHC's (off-highway vehicles). The idea was to not only assess damage, but also look for common illegal crossings to further enforcement.

[SilverDoctor]

Don't forget to report any illegal off-highway vehice usage again this year. I've sent pictures and videos of offroaders the last few years to F/W with good results. It's worst than poaching as its much longer term and deeper damage.

[BurningChrome]

There is always a lot of chatter on the redneck board (and I'm sure similar sites) about this exact thing... Too much regulation, too much government involvement, blah, blah blah... How to garner support is the challenge?

I've never gone to the redneck board, but I imagine that they don't like any regulations at all. This is likely not the same user group that belongs to the OHV organizations like RMDR and AOHVA. My guess is that a lot of people on the redneck board also gill their fish, take pictures of them lying on the rocks, etc. Just like this forum is only a small sampling of fly fishers in Calgary I imagine theirs is the same when it comes to OHV use.

 

Coming from someone who has a very negative view of the ATV'ers as of late, it would be nice to hear of some in that community call for closures in a few very sensitive areas in order to show there is some level of respect. I'm thinking areas like along Racehorse Creek in the south of better yet the Mackenzie Creek valley in central Alberta (it is a disgusting mess of unsustainable trails in there). If the ATV community wants to be part of the solution, they should bring forward some sensitive areas to close down on their own. I don't see it happening, I expect to see a lot of total closures coming in the near future as the damage is present, it is extreme, and the ATV community still actively promotes use of these badly damaged areas. I respect where you are coming from BurningChrome, but after reading through the mud and snow forum and looking at the recent youtube videos from the Alberta atv groups Id say we are a long ways off from having support for treading lightly and using any level of respect.

So let me be up front. I don't ride an ATV or MX so I can't speak for those groups. What I can say is that none of those groups will call for closures because there is currently no way to get new trails in Alberta. All trails are "existing linear disturbances" which generally means former seismic and logging access. 99% of the current designated trails in Southern AB are in what we'd deem to be sensitive areas - McLean Creek, Waiparous, and the Castle. So if the groups say "hey, Waiparous is too sensitive so let's shut it down" then the immediate response will be "but so are McLean and the Castle so let's shut those down too". Suddenly there is nowhere legal left for even the responsible users to go.

 

Kevin has the right approach on this - create new, sustainable trails that aren't in sensitive areas for people to use. That's what groups like mine and some others have been advocating for a while.

 

As for YouTube videos and the mud and snow forum (not familiar with this one), like I said to Peter, a forum only represents a small percentage of the total user group. I think a lot of the redneck boggers are more likely to make a video and post it because they want the most views and sadly that's the type of thing that gets them.

[BurningChrome]

It's worst than poaching as its much longer term and deeper damage.

So what about mining, O&G, and logging? Those are even longer term, deeper damage, and cover far more area. I always find it humourous when people on this forum lose their minds over quads but excuse anything that industry does because that's where they get their paycheques. Not saying that quads don't do any damage, because yeah they do, but there's definitely a double standard around here.

[SilverDoctor]

When I see unlawful practices I report them. I haven't lost my mind in quite some time. The "standard" should be to protect our sensitive environmental areas where we can make a difference. There are no plans to Ban OHC's, only to protect sensitive watersheds where severe damage is being done.

[WinstonConfluentus]

This will be among the leading issues in the Oldman headwaters this year. The Oldman Watershed Council and others are attempting to maintain open dialogue with OHV users and groups in an effort to find the best solutions for all concerned. Considerable information on this can be found on the OWC's website and Facebook page as well as on my new Facebook page, The Crowsnest Journal. Many in the OHV community have joined the discussion on these pages and understanding among user groups is increasing. Anglers can play an important role in this conversation as our native trout are among the best indicators of watershed health not to mention how wonderfully impartial they are. If anyone has any specific questions or concerns they can likely be answered on one of the pages. If not, drop me a message on my page and I'll do my best to reply. -Kevin Turner.

[ÜberFly]

Kevin,

 

Not everyone is on Facebook!

 

This will be among the leading issues in the Oldman headwaters this year. The Oldman Watershed Council and others are attempting to maintain open dialogue with OHV users and groups in an effort to find the best solutions for all concerned. Considerable information on this can be found on the OWC's website and Facebook page as well as on my new Facebook page, The Crowsnest Journal. Many in the OHV community have joined the discussion on these pages and understanding among user groups is increasing. Anglers can play an important role in this conversation as our native trout are among the best indicators of watershed health not to mention how wonderfully impartial they are. If anyone has any specific questions or concerns they can likely be answered on one of the pages. If not, drop me a message on my page and I'll do my best to reply. -Kevin Turner.

[WinstonConfluentus]

Hi Uber, I hear you; I stayed out of the fray on Facebook for many years myself. My experience managing another page convinced me of the value, and the power, of social media. Currently the page has become a library and newsreel for some folks, a discussion forum for others. I'm working on expanding the platform and creating a website; unfortunately, my resources are quite limited. There has been a significant lack of strong investigative reporting on issues in the Oldman watershed and it appears the page is helping to fill that. I'm now looking into possible grant funding (this cannot and should not be allowed to affect the journalism so it will take the right grant) and perhaps contacting a philanthropic outfit as the response to the page has been overwhelming at times.

I'd paste a few of the essays and articles here if I could figure out how to do it; I've just never had the time to learn this forum and Word has always behaved oddly for me once on here. It's likely my lack of skills more than anything. I'll send you an email address by pm. Thanks for your interest in the welfare of the watershed.

[BurningChrome]

On Thursday I was at the Westslope Cutthroat Trout stakeholder workshop put on by Cows & Fish. Folks from AEP, TUC, TU Oldman, Spray Lakes Sawmills, some ranchers, and a couple reps from the Crowsnest Pass Quad Squad were also there. Here's what the Quad Squad released shortly afterwards:

 

https://oldmanwatershed-council.squarespace.com/blog-posts/2016/2/19/news-release-from-the-crowsnest-pass-quad-squad