Alberta Fisheries -insights To The Future

[Swede]

No, actually you don't get it. I have nothing personally against Bob, would love to meet him and find out his thinking on this issue.

 

And we're back to that a**hat comments eh GreenDrake? Insinuating that my lack of signing this petition implies that the "rape and pillage" of Alberta is somehow my fault?

 

And as far as giving back, go pound some sand. Is that why I'm giving up part of my personal summer holidays to take some kids fishing in August?

 

Your comments speak more about you than they do me. Bottom line is I don't deserve your cheap shots, if you have nothing constructive to say, then why say it?

 

All the best,

Smitty

Its my fault its all our fault. Am as guilty as anyone for sitting back for 30 years and remaining silent.

[ironfly]

For me, it's not as much the tone, as the facts. When some of the "facts" are unreliable, or blatantly untrue, it calls everything else coming from that source into question. For instance, there's a blurb railing against SRD for the reintroduction of otters. Supposedly, this will be disastrous because otters eat every fish in sight, reproduce uncontrollably, and have no natural predators. Yeah, except for linx, cougars, bears, wolves, coyotes, foxes, and dogs. Too bad there's none of those around, eh?

[Swede]

For me, it's not as much the tone, as the facts. When some of the "facts" are unreliable, or blatantly untrue, it calls everything else coming from that source into question. For instance, there's a blurb railing against SRD for the reintroduction of otters. Supposedly, this will be disastrous because otters eat every fish in sight, reproduce uncontrollably, and have no natural predators. Yeah, except for linx, cougars, bears, wolves, coyotes, foxes, and dogs. Too bad there's none of those around, eh?

Where do you think they came from the local pet store?

[ironfly]

Where do you think they came from the local pet store?

I'm not sure I understand the question. My "too bad there's none of those" comment was a sarcastic referral to the supposedly non-existent natural predators of otters.

[Swede]

I'm not sure I understand the question. My "too bad there's none of those" comment was a sarcastic referral to the supposedly non-existent natural predators of otters.

None of those are a natural predator of otters.

[bigbowtrout]

None of those are a natural predator of otters.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America...r_otter#Threats

 

Terrestrial predators include the bobcat (Lynx rufus), mountain lion (Felis concolor), coyote (Canis latrans), domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris), gray wolf (Canis lupus), black bear (Ursus americanus) and (in young or small otters) red fox (Vulpes vulpes) .

 

I also read that Owls can go for the young Otters.

 

Wiki never lies

[Swede]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_America...r_otter#Threats

 

 

 

I also read that Owls can go for the young Otters.

 

Wiki never lies

None of those pray on otters enough to control population. Still nothing to do with the petition about the Red Deer River.

[Swede]

Can't support the stocking of NON NATIVE FISH in flowing waters that already have Native Species.

Ya we should get rid of non native fish starting with the bow river.

[ironfly]

Isn't this all a moot point? From what I've heard, enforcement of any kind will soon be a thing of the past, so who's going to issue these steeper fines? No revenue from fines means no funding for the Red Deer River Pilot Project.

 

I'm usually a pretty law-abiding guy, but I'm starting to think if we want better enforcement, we'll have to do it ourselves. Old school.

 

Honestly though, how many people really believe that nearly half of all anglers are poaching? Or have I misunderstood the website?

[Swede]

Isn't this all a moot point? From what I've heard, enforcement of any kind will soon be a thing of the past, so who's going to issue these steeper fines? No revenue from fines means no funding for the Red Deer River Pilot Project.

 

I'm usually a pretty law-abiding guy, but I'm starting to think if we want better enforcement, we'll have to do it ourselves. Old school.

 

Honestly though, how many people really believe that nearly half of all anglers are poaching? Or have I misunderstood the website?

 

Well if all of us stop bending over and taking it up you no where, maybe things will change. Maybe it isn't half of all anglers. its still affects us all no matter what the % is.

 

When I was a kid I could go to the Red Deer River with 5 friends, line up 10 feet apart and catch fish all day. Now I can float from the dam to Innisfail and not catch anything. I've caught pike up to 27 pounds in the Red Deer, a 10 pound 11 ounce rainbow, browns over 10 pounds

 

Still get the big browns once in awhile but no one in my boat has caught a pike in about 3 years in that section. The river needs help, so sign the petition plz and thank you

[ironfly]

I'm pretty sure most of our rivers need help. I've been fishing Alberta waters, including the RDR, for quite a while. I've seen hundreds, if not thousands of other anglers, in that time. I can count the number of times I've encountered true poachers without using my toes. I truly don't believe that Rampant Illegal Retention is the source of the decline in fishing quality. I worked in a tackle shop for a few years, and I can't tell you how many times I've heard a similar story,

 

"Fishing used to be great there, you could catch them by the bucket-load, day after day. Stupid government/poachers/mismanagement ruined the fishery!"

 

Laughable, if weren't so sad.

[ironfly]

According to the website FOTRDR has lots of support from the private sector. I think Bob's group should just secure their funding by campaigning for charitable donations. That would be far more constructive than a petition to the government, don't you think? Especially the present gov't, which is going very much the other way.

 

I would make a donation, but I'm not signing.

[PGK]

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[Swede]

What river, fish would that be. Something wrong with trying to help a river that both mine and my wifes family has farmed and homesteaded since the late 1800's What other river that historically held fish can you float 15 km of and not catch a ****in g thing bro .

[DaveJensen]

I don't think I've ever floated the RDR and not caught a fish. Fish being the operative word. Green Drake - would it be best if we had the historically present bull trout or the non native browns? Would it be best if we had more native walleye and no browns? Andis there a difference in catching a bunch of goldeye vs 2 - 10 browns? To whom? Hence why I've pushed 10+ yrs for the RDR Fisheries Mgt Plan to be revisited. And, this year, finally - we will be doing just that.

One note about the petition: it does not line up with the guiding principles, foundations, etc of Alberta Fisheries Management. To try to super-impose a new regime on one river without first changing those guiding principles is not going to fly. The two are a separate set of procedures. One arm must patiently wait for the other to catch up. Hence, the petition is ahead of itself. Proceduraly, the group should be first changing the foundation (which would go through the FRT mtgs, bios, politicians, etc on a provincial scale). That takes abouto 10 years. After that has occurred, then follow up with a site specific regulation that falls within the new foundations. To attempt to usurp process will not work.

But they've been told that by essentially everyone, from techs, bios, MLAs, etc.

Nobody is saying that their plan does not work. Nobody is saying they are wrong to want more. Nobody is saying not to try. Everyone is saying process - respect it and go through it and work within it. That is the only way gov works. And sure, I'm sure this will evoke the same kind of response I've received before but all I am saying is follow procedure within the foundation of our system. There are some (not all) very positive ideas in their literature that will never see the light of day until they follow process. I've never been against everything in their plan, just the methodology.

[PGK]

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[McLeod]

Ya we should get rid of non native fish starting with the bow river.

 

 

We shouldn't and don't stock NON NATIVES in the Bow now ...So the RDR should be the same.

Nver said we should get rid of the Browns in the RDR ..Just not in to adding more..

[reevesr1]

Like they said in jurassic park, nature finds a way!

 

And don't call me bro.

 

As they said in Blues Brothers:

"It’s 200 miles to Chicago. We’ve got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it’s dark, and we’re wearing sunglasses. Hit it."

 

And as they said in Airplane

"And don't call me Shirley."

 

 

 

 

[Swede]

Hey, if you're looking for someone to blame for the (supposed?) lack of BRTR in the RDR, you may want to look to the poster above me. A decade (plus?) of catching the same fish over and over week in week out. Sorry to pick your ass Dave (and I know it's not as black and white as that but I'm using you to make my point), but even you have to admit that multiple recaptures of the same fish is going to impede and delay maturation resulting in lower fecundity and increased time between spawnings. Less eggs and longer peiods between them = less fish abundance. I'm not all that unhappy to hear the BRTR are getting whupped by the native system. Like they said in jurassic park, nature finds a way!

 

And don't call me bro.

 

 

So I take it your not the same PGK that use to ride with Satan's Choice back in the mid 80's . Sorry my mistake.

 

Well thing is in the Red Deer directly below the dam and down to Red Deer itself the natives aren't doing any better than the browns. Nature doesn't find a way when the water quality starts getting contaminated. Like I said no Pike in 3 years. whitefish almost gone, Very few walleye compared to years past. Haven't caught a mooneye or seen one sculpin in the Red Deer in years.

Red Deer use to be great for sculpins but there gone, have been for years. So ya lots of goldeye if that's your thing.

[Swede]

Double post

[Smitty]

So I take it your not the same PGK that use to ride with Satan's Choice back in the mid 80's . Sorry my mistake.

 

Well thing is in the Red Deer directly below the dam and down to Red Deer itself the natives aren't doing any better than the browns. Nature doesn't find a way when the water quality starts getting contaminated. Like I said no Pike in 3 years. whitefish almost gone, Very few walleye compared to years past. Haven't caught a mooneye or seen one sculpin in the Red Deer in years.

Red Deer use to be great for sculpins but there gone, have been for years. So ya lots of goldeye if that's your thing.

 

Just to address one specific thing; if all GrnDrake says is true, then I guess that's a heavy burden for Dave to bear, eh PGK? I mean Dave must be responsible for ALL that, right, using your logic?

 

R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S. Is there a way I can put the roll-eyes emoticon into size 100?

 

Multiple re-captures is a variable that is relatively equal distributed across many watersheds. Clearly, again, assume for the moment GrnDrake's anecdotal evidence is quite accurate, clearly there is something more systemically wrong with the Red Deer far beyond a "multiple re-capture" issue. Talk about making a mountain out of a red-herring molehill!

 

Why don't you stick to banning fishing in the National Parks, PGK? You almost had a valid argument there. Bottom line is that there are many thriving, viable brown trout fisheries across the continent doing well enough to overcome the single variable of "multiple re-captures". So what's wrong with the Red Deer then?

 

Smitty

[DaveJensen]

Drake - the walleye population is doing extremely well. So much so that there is likely to be an opening of some form on the river after the FMP is done. Yes, the whites are down from the peak just prior flood '05, but when the flood hits a population and at the same time a top predator in the system has its #s improve so dramatically, suppression happens, which is why the whitefish regs reflect that. Pike pops come and go but they are almost as hard to get a good handle on #s as the browns in the RDR - look for more protection of pike in the future. That said, we've caught a lot of pike in recent years in key spots. You are right about the sculpins but when you look at suckers, etc, they are still there in good #s. Then there is the goldeye pop. And the browns - honestly - they are what they are. If you were on the river this spring, you know what's there - the best spring since the flood, hands down, for us. But, really, in looking through photos lately and remembering the moments and fishing for browns in the RDR the past 15 years... it has and always will be*** a poor trout river with world class moments with browns lest we nuke the other top level predators (and I am not advocating that). But, for what it is from a brown trout/fly fisher's perspective, it is an amazing resource close at hand. You simply have to have the flexibility to time it well... and the browns in the RDR are generally not hard to catch.

The habitat issues - absolutely. But what are you (collectively) going to do about that? We can't change that over night. There are growing watershed groups' movements that are making some headway. Like all things, we have to bottom out before things improve. I suspect that worm has turned. But, if it takes 100 years of farming to create a situation, it'll take a few years to come around - and it won't ever be as good as when the Palliser Expeditions came through. Not a chance given the intensity of use.

The reality is that in Alberta, when you look at the bigger picture, we have excellent fishing regs (as a whole). Sure, we could use some tweaking in site specific locations. Our issues are not regulations related so much as habitat and sheer volume of users and user conflicts (which will lead future regulations response).

 

*** I had to come back to this to edit - 'has and always be' refers to post dam river. We all know the influence of a dam. We all know that the river used to be bulls/whites. Using time stamp of the dam as reference, since it is what it is and will be for a long time.

[PGK]

Excellent post dave.

 

Bottom line is that there are many thriving, viable brown trout fisheries across the continent doing well...

And those fisheries are...?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...stocked.