Guide's Association Yay/nay, & How Do We Start?

[Jayhad]

OK There has been many opinions expressed for and against a guides association on this forum from time to time. At one time there was a guides association, but from one that wasn't involved it looks as though it has gone by the way side., ie website is dead and no reasonable research can locate information.

 

I for one can't really decide if it is a good thing or not my two concerns are:

-Having a guides association can bring awareness to the economic value of our resource and one voice can impact change. PGK has brought very good information to the table to support this idea.

-Through economic value, guides have been able to impact usage of resources for the benefit of thier pockets while presenting the implemented restrictions as a benefit to resource. I feel it would be horrible if a guides association was able to inact changes that saw restrictive rod days, to both residents and non-residents on our waters.

 

 

What is restricting us from getting this off the ground?

-is it public perception as to what the guides should be responsible for?

-------->I for one don't agree that a guides association should be responsible for education of the masses, electricians aren't putting on wire identification courses.

-Are there to few guides to hold an association together? is it always the same few writing, lobbying, and attending meetings to the point as where they get burnt out?

-$$$, guides don't want to pony up? and why should they when the unregulated status quo seems to be working?

-Would the govt. care?

-Is our Alberta culture of limited govt involvement to blame? Perhaps provincial licensing wouldn't happen but again I come to one voice carries some weight.

-Is there to much disent from guides toward one another?

-I was told this season from a guide that I wouldn't be allowed to be part of the guides association as my skiff doesn't have knee braces (it's designed to be fished out of sitting) are inflexable rules holding guides back?

 

I bring this topic up as I would like to see a fundemental change to how the Bow is managed and I feel a guides association could achieve these objectives. Please note these are only my perceptions (wrong or right) of how the Bow could be managed to much better fishery; With a river that is constantly reffered to as a "Blue Ribbon Fishery" shouldn't it be managed as such?

 

-1. Bait Ban from Bearspaw to Carseland, the maggot whitefish opening does experience a lot of trout by catch.

-2. No retintion, Catch and Release; there are a lot of put and take fisheries in this province and the province suggests you don't consume fish from the Bow.

-3. Changing the definition of HOOK in this management zone or Bow specific, so three hooks can be used but with only one point each. Running mulitple trebles on a C&R water is not in the best interest of the fishery.

 

 

 

Your thoughts, hopefully some guides will chime in to the failures in the past and how we could move forward (I say failure as there is no public perception that there is a guides association currently)

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

i vote nay, it turns into a corporate thing keeping smaller guys out creatating exclusion. I feel that they try to maxemize the profits that can be made off a river and change regulations to get what they want and restrict the recreational use for people like me who have no interest in guiding or the services.

[bcubed]

This is my and my own opinion.. I want it done for the sake of the river and the industry. That does not mean restricting members of the public. In fact, any regulation of guiding will make the fishery a NICER place to be for Joe Public. However, the only way to make it work is to reduce total number of angling days by guides...good luck getting that anywhere

 

I asked SRD about making guiding legislated a few months ago. They have no interest at this time, as guiding has to be proven to be negatively effecting a watershed before they will do anything.

 

 

 

 

Why it won't work:

 

- Who decides that you're considered a guide? If you just have to pay a few bucks a year, then what difference will it make than now, other than having the ability to say you're a "registered guide".

- How do you manage the amount of guiding on a watershed.

- Angling days have to be managed. Who controls this? Who controls how many each guide gets? What criteria do you have to have to get angling days? Who would go for it, if it has the chance of putting themselves out of business. If you grandfather all the current guides in place, then what benefit is there really as the problem is not fixed other than brand new guys on the river.

 

 

Why i'd like it:

Maybe have some swing with the shuttle companies. The shuttle prices are nuts, and we all just suck up and pay it because we have no alternative. Perhaps if we had a voice to say that if a company charges up this much less, they get all the business....

 

Enough of the guides who have their boat for less than a month and want a way to pay it off quicker..

 

A friendlier environment. The Bow was a gong show the last few years. Cutting off, pushing fights, keyed vehicles and slashed tired, etc, etc.. It's getting tiring.

 

 

Here's my opinion on some of the legislation that should get looked at:

 

-Close the Bow, Bearspaw to 22x from Oct15-March 15.. Too many times have I seen anglers (and some guides....) targeting browns while on Redds. Wading and dropping anchor on redds and spawning gravel, as well as hitting the same winter holes day after day. Fish need a break, which they're consistently getting less of year by year.

 

-More accountability for the insane flow changes on the Bow during rain events.

 

-Kill the guiding on cutthroat streams. All you have to look at is the Oldman in the Gap for reasons why.

 

And this one (which everyone will laugh at me for): Stop the insanity of July. No guiding before 7:00AM on the Bow. Will lower pressure for the public, as well as stop the guiding twice per day.

[Jayhad]

Brent, thank you some excellent points there; and in asking questions please don't think I am attacking or questioning the validity of your statements I am just trying to get a better understanding.

 

 

Why it won't work:

 

- Who decides that you're considered a guide? If you just have to pay a few bucks a year, then what difference will it make than now, other than having the ability to say you're a "registered guide".

- How do you manage the amount of guiding on a watershed.

- Angling days have to be managed. Who controls this? Who controls how many each guide gets? What criteria do you have to have to get angling days? Who would go for it, if it has the chance of putting themselves out of business. If you grandfather all the current guides in place, then what benefit is there really as the problem is not fixed other than brand new guys on the river.

 

I completely agree these are hold ups, an association would have to police itself. As for who is a guide is I would think there would have to be boat restrictions, (no tinnies or canoes) evidence of first aid, and liability insurance. How do you manage the watershed? I have no idea, but if things continue unregulated where will we be? Perhaps a review of days guided the previous year with a 10% increase.

 

Why i'd like it:

Maybe have some swing with the shuttle companies. The shuttle prices are nuts, and we all just suck up and pay it because we have no alternative. Perhaps if we had a voice to say that if a company charges up this much less, they get all the business....

 

You don't have to travel very far south to see we are taking it between the anal fins on shuttle prices

 

Enough of the guides who have their boat for less than a month and want a way to pay it off quicker..

Do you really think this is an issue? these guys never really put much effort or $$$ into their service so they go by the wayside, mind you if it was government run this would become a non-issue

 

A friendlier environment. The Bow was a gong show the last few years. Cutting off, pushing fights, keyed vehicles and slashed tired, etc, etc.. It's getting tiring.

I think this may be a sign of the times, these problems are evident on most major watersheds in western Canada right now. Look at threads about the Thompson, Vedder, Fraser, our bow river report has one rant at least each day in the summer. I haven't fished in the US much are they experiencing the same things? or are we just not used to the growing pains of our ever increasingly popular streams? There's always going to be a-holes

 

 

-Close the Bow, Bearspaw to 22x from Oct15-March 15.. Too many times have I seen anglers (and some guides....) targeting browns while on Redds. Wading and dropping anchor on redds and spawning gravel, as well as hitting the same winter holes day after day. Fish need a break, which they're consistently getting less of year by year.

Even though I'm a culprit of fishing in the winter I couldn't agree more, this season I have decided to give them rest. (not judging anyone if it's legal knock yourself out)

 

-More accountability for the insane flow changes on the Bow during rain events.

Honestly I've never given this any thought, you'd have to be living under a rock since the 60's to not know wide flow changes negatively effects fish but I thought in the Bow it was becuase we have so much concrete funneling water into the Bow. Does transalta open the valves more?

 

-Kill the guiding on cutthroat streams. All you have to look at is the Oldman in the Gap for reasons why.

I don't guide in this area as I feel it sees far to much traffic, but I think it is a prime example for rod day restrictions, I think closing guiding on all cutthroat streams is not the way to go as there is tons of virtually untoached cutty criks in this province, and then we may see a negative influx of days on the Bow, but your point does have merit.

 

And this one (which everyone will laugh at me for): Stop the insanity of July. No guiding before 7:00AM on the Bow. Will lower pressure for the public, as well as stop the guiding twice per day.

So no guiding before 7:00am? tough one for myself personally as I like to fish the stonefly hatches from 22:00-4:00 but typically that is it for me for the day. I don't see this as lowering pressure unless there is a large amount of guides taking out two groups in one day..... I know of several guides that like to launch at 4:00 Am but they are typically off at 13:00 and don't reguide.

 

Thanks for your input

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

what about just rule changes in the regulations for the treds and magots? faster and less commity BS

[Jayhad]

what about just rule changes in the regulations for the treds and magots? faster and less commity BS

well get on it Jer.... this is the reason for this discussion a guides association will have a much larger voice than this forum or a single dude trying to implement changes. Our Govt`understands $$$ not bleeding hearts. A guides association could show that the fishery is a worthwhile investment for govt coffers

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

whats wrong with a petition sent to SRD and a quick change in the typing for next years regs? If enough of the angerins in Ab agree then it shouldnt take long at all. This would cost the gov nothing to do (yah right) price of licenses would stay the same and i could catch WAY more poachers/year (i hope)

[Jayhad]

whats wrong with a petition sent to SRD and a quick change in the typing for next years regs? If enough of the angerins in Ab agree then it shouldnt take long at all. This would cost the gov nothing to do (yah right) price of licenses would stay the same and i could catch WAY more poachers/year (i hope)

If you feel it is that simple I implore you to start a petition and spearhead that effort.

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

if i had the interest i would but i think the regs are fine the way they are

 

[PGK]

.

[bcubed]

Wish this would let me quote within quotes, so you'll have to go back to your post to see what i was talking about. Replies within in red.

 

Brent, thank you some excellent points there; and in asking questions please don't think I am attacking or questioning the validity of your statements I am just trying to get a better understanding.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree these are hold ups, an association would have to police itself. As for who is a guide is I would think there would have to be boat restrictions, (no tinnies or canoes) evidence of first aid, and liability insurance. How do you manage the watershed? I have no idea, but if things continue unregulated where will we be? Perhaps a review of days guided the previous year with a 10% increase.

 

 

 

You don't have to travel very far south to see we are taking it between the anal fins on shuttle prices

 

 

Do you really think this is an issue? these guys never really put much effort or $$$ into their service so they go by the wayside, mind you if it was government run this would become a non-issue

Yeah this is an issue. More and more guys calling themselves guides, yet coming out of the woodwork. From never fishing the Bow to being a guide within a year..that's insane.. Whats worse is that most first time clients do not know any better..

 

 

I think this may be a sign of the times, these problems are evident on most major watersheds in western Canada right now. Look at threads about the Thompson, Vedder, Fraser, our bow river report has one rant at least each day in the summer. I haven't fished in the US much are they experiencing the same things? or are we just not used to the growing pains of our ever increasingly popular streams? There's always going to be a-holes

 

If there was accountability in the form that you were part of a group, and could actually be recognized, there would be far less anonymity, and more recourse for the guys being absolute dicks. Plus it could allow for an opportunity to teach new guides proper ettiquite. Just because someone else cut you off one day, is not an excuse to cut off everyone for the rest of the year. An etiquette course/test would be nice

 

 

Even though I'm a culprit of fishing in the winter I couldn't agree more, this season I have decided to give them rest. (not judging anyone if it's legal knock yourself out)

 

 

Honestly I've never given this any thought, you'd have to be living under a rock since the 60's to not know wide flow changes negatively effects fish but I thought in the Bow it was becuase we have so much concrete funneling water into the Bow. Does transalta open the valves more?\

 

There are guidelines regarding quality of storm outflow water, however the bumps from transalta does occur from rain, as well as when they decide to drop it a ton. Transalta also dicks with flows way too much during the summer. Nothing worse then getting on the river and seeing a 2 foot water line. I also talked to SRD about this, and again it was a "if it wasnt for the dams, we wouldn't have the river the way it is anyway"....

 

 

I don't guide in this area as I feel it sees far to much traffic, but I think it is a prime example for rod day restrictions, I think closing guiding on all cutthroat streams is not the way to go as there is tons of virtually untoached cutty criks in this province, and then we may see a negative influx of days on the Bow, but your point does have merit.

 

So why not leave them untouched? There should be rivers/areas that are NOT guided upon. Plus guiding for cutthroat is damn near robbery. You're a glorified chauffeur. Cutties have a very limited growing season, and when they're being subjected to clients fishing the same runs every day for 2 months straight, they're not going to do well.

 

 

So no guiding before 7:00am? tough one for myself personally as I like to fish the stonefly hatches from 22:00-4:00 but typically that is it for me for the day. I don't see this as lowering pressure unless there is a large amount of guides taking out two groups in one day..... I know of several guides that like to launch at 4:00 Am but they are typically off at 13:00 and don't reguide.

Why not leave it for FISHING, not guiding. That is how up till about 4ish years ago this was. There was NO one guiding it. And the ones that were in the know we're not talking it up on forums and fly shops. There was a code that you didn't guide ppl on it, especially locals, and you don't mention it... Thats the worst part of this hatch, is that as soon as one guide starts with the early morning stuff, then everyone else is trying to compete and getting earlier and earlier. The fish get so royally freaked out of the big bug after a week, that the fishing is significantly effected well into the rest of the day. Plus, if left alone during the dark, those fish are more then willing to eat stones ALL day..They've been trained that the only time they're safe now is in the cover of dark, and even that is changing. I've witnessed numerous fish not only refuse naturals, but LEAVE when seeing them....

 

Obviously this is not really a feasible thing to be outlawed (good luck enforcing it), however it let me bitch a little bit. I know some rivers do not allow fishing until 1 hour after sunrise, which could be a solution, just exchange guiding for fishing.

 

Thanks for your input

 

again, ranting. apologies

[Harps]

Didn't read all of this yet...

Alberta needs regulated guides. Period.

 

See this thread for lots of talk on it: http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?...ulation+montana

 

my opinion:

All hunting and fishing guides should be licensed.

I have talked to poachers who said that their guide from the day before said they could fish in an out of season location. Same guy bought a box of barbed flies from the guide to fish all the way down Hwy 22 (in May). I have seen guides tossing fish. I have seen guides racing to put clients on fishing holes and getting in verbal arguments with other anglers about rights to fish. It is time for some standards to be applied.

Guides make money from a public resource and use public access. I know some guides give back to the community (I know alot of great guides), but I suspect that that is the exception.

 

Checking online there are dozens of flyfishing guides in Southern Alberta alone.

Plus there are folks out of BC that guide in Alberta and even a guide in Ontario (Grindstone) that advertises that he is part of the Alberta Outfitters Assn. Add to those flyfishing guides the number of gear fishing gides and fly-in places in the north.

 

Each shop will likely run a guide service (Lots of guiding possiblities).

Then there will be additional guides that want to stay as guides. If it would cut into a shops bussiness then an individual guide could go independent. There might be an initial start-up cost but $300k a year is a farce. (I'd like to see what this is based on). If there are 100 outfitters in Alberta... $1000-$2000 a year fee for an outfitter, plus $100 per guide.

Outfitters/guides pay for first aid, insurance (could be subsidized, especially through a outfitting Assn), and each guide must pay an exam fee (once ever 3 years, possible seperate exams for areas they want to fish). I would want a guide licensed to fish in the ES area, not one who spends his time in the eastern boreal.

Like Montana, proof of experience in guiding in Alberta should be mandatory (I think 100-200 days) before somebody could become an outfitter.

I like the idea of having professional guide qualifications (above a standard guide) as an incentive to take revelent courses and expand your knowledge in the field. Good thing for attracting clients too!

 

Additional monies shouldn't come from the fisheries dept... they should come from the Employment and Immigration deptn (Labour codes and standards).

 

 

As a corporation, I would think that a guide license would be a mandatory condition for hosting a corporate event... what if something were to go wrong? The corporation would have to take the hit.

 

 

In terms of enforcement:

*Self regulation would be big, because you don't want the cometition taking clients without paying, wihle you do (I hate self regulation, but it would work where money is involved, especially with word of mouth businesses).

*All guide boats must be identified> decal with guide number on the bow.

*Business vehicles would have a decal in the window (important for insurance and business $ also).

*Guides would only have to pay once a year so it wouldn't be a per trip issue. If a guy is on the water with a group of people, check the truck for a sticker. If they are in a boat... check the boat and the trucks at the take-out.

Sure some would get missed, but how much business would they get if folks start looking for guide licenses before they book a trip (The Outfitters Assn needs a website with a list of current guides).

 

Keith's site seems to indicate that they would have no problem affording a guide/outfitters license.

 

In Montana:

http://www.foam-montana.org/faq.htm

The Montana Board of Outfitters (MBO), a unit of the state Dept. of Labor & Industry, sets experience, qualification, and testing requirements for licensing outfitters to provide fishing and/or hunting services (both big game and upland bird/waterfowl). Guides are sponsored by individual outfitters, then qualified by the MBO for a license.

 

From Montana Board of Outfitters

 

2. What is the difference between a Guide and an Outfitter?

In Montana there is a substantial difference between Guides and Outfitters. Guides must work for Outfitters, and any clients they guide must come from their endorsing Outfitter. To become an Outfitter, a Guide must have 100 days of guiding experience, take an exam, pay a minimum of $1,800.00, and meet other criteria. Becoming a Guide is relatively simple compared to Outfitter qualifications.

 

3. Do I need First Aid or CPR to comply with the rules?

Only Basic First Aid is required to become a Guide in Montana. Internet courses are not accepted.

 

4. Do I need a Guide License to take clients on float trips or scenic hiking trips?

No. A Guide license is needed only if clients are hunting or fishing and paying for it. For further information on the requirements for guiding hikes and scenic float trips, or starting a business in Montana, etc. contact the Secretary of State.

 

27. What are the requirements for Professional Guide?

An applicant for a professional guide's license must meet the standard qualifications for a guide license, in addition to, the following qualifications:

 

(a) have held a guide license in the state of Montana for at least three years;

( have not had disciplinary action taken against the applicant's guide license in this or any other state;

© have spent at least 300 days guiding clients in the field as evidenced by employment records, or client report logs of endorsing outfitters;

(d) applicants must produce, on a form provided by the board, character

references from three clients the guide has guided, one licensed outfitter, and one licensed guide and present evidence of 15 hours of training or education obtained in the year previous to application in addition to guiding experience, in topics relevant to guiding as approved by the board. Please reference the following Administrative Rule: http://www.mtrules.org/gateway/ruleno.asp?RN=24.171.601

 

There were some good ideas in this thread on licensing guides from last month

 

Now I'll go back and read the comments...

[Harps]

Oh yeah... I'm all for a legit guide assn... more for regulated guiding!

At least a guide assn could have a website with links to reputable guide outfits, plus the voice (associated with income and profit) would be much bigger than a two-bit fly fishing website...

[DonAndersen]

From:

David Park, M. Sc.

Provincial Aquatic Habitat Specialist / Fisheries Biologist

Alberta Sustainable Resource Development

Fisheries Management

 

I got the following:

 

 

Regarding the F&W Policy, I can't send you anything, as this is a 1982 policy and we have no electronic copies. It exists here only in booklet form. Nonetheless, I can provide you with the relevant information from the policy, which is the fisheries allocation priority it outlines. It stipulates that fish allocation priorities will be in the following descending order,

1. Conservation of fish stocks;

2. Alberta Indians fishing for food on specific sites;

3. Métis people fishing on Métis Settlements;

4. Resident recreational use; and

5. Primary commercial uses (e.g., commercial fishing, guiding and tourist angling).

 

 

So, when it gets crowded, the guides & foreigners are gone.

 

Is it crowded yet?

 

 

Don

 

 

[Jayhad]

From:

David Park, M. Sc.

Provincial Aquatic Habitat Specialist / Fisheries Biologist

Alberta Sustainable Resource Development

Fisheries Management

 

I got the following:

 

 

Regarding the F&W Policy, I can't send you anything, as this is a 1982 policy and we have no electronic copies. It exists here only in booklet form. Nonetheless, I can provide you with the relevant information from the policy, which is the fisheries allocation priority it outlines. It stipulates that fish allocation priorities will be in the following descending order,

1. Conservation of fish stocks;

2. Alberta Indians fishing for food on specific sites;

3. Métis people fishing on Métis Settlements;

4. Resident recreational use; and

5. Primary commercial uses (e.g., commercial fishing, guiding and tourist angling).

 

 

So, when it gets crowded, the guides & foreigners are gone.

 

Is it crowded yet?

 

 

Don

 

So F&W uses a policy that was implimented 30 years ago to manage our fisheries????

[DonAndersen]

jay..

 

 

Same Govt -

 

 

Don

[maxwell]

the alst thread has some good info im on board. we need regulations. we halfto cut down the number of barely halftime guides so the guides like myself who has committed to this job has the work to stat employed. not many industries support occasional work when a little extra money is around and it bugs me exspecially on the days when i know good guides are not working but weekend or shift work guides are out there making someone elses money. get in or get out IMHO i wish i could play a few games a year for the flames n make some extra cash but thats not gonna happen so lets kill that dream in this industry.. pgk is right i think if we had rod days the outfitters and flyshops with the highest seniority should have th dibs not some rich dude who barely guides looking to **** others over long term... i wish we could control the dams more some what(mainly for low flows right now!!! we should have a little mor water if we get no snow!!!) but flooding the city, losing power or whatever that might happen will probably harsh my mellow more than fishing streamers for a few days while they settle down or lower water right now as long as the spawning channels have flows!... the river is well regulated that way IMHO with the exception of the spray lakes dam this year that deposited tons of silt... the bow is a blue ribbon stream partially because of our dam we put in at bearspaw as well as the numerous other ones... another part about a guide union would be to actually have some sort of a pention to actually build and pay into so that when me and other guides retire we are not left with nothing ( i get rrsp and other saving stuff but...) same with healthcare and all the other stuff JOBS usually have when run by a governing body...

 

the biggest problem with the cutty streams is access i guide them all the time the canadian rockies is a large place for destination travel and tourists and bucket list fisherman are more than willing to fish these places because it is the place they have dreamed of there whole lives... lets not allow guiding for bonefish while we are at it, pacific salmon and many other species across the globe that us canadians (and guidies) go and get guided on....

 

i think many of these streams would be far better if there was a limited access with no random camping.. my clients would be willing to walk and we do treat the fish far better than most people i see out there including the "hardcore" fisherman who disrespect the non trophy fish... the same ones that would or can become trophy if they are cherished and taken care of the most!!! barry mitchel had a great article on this!!! totally changed my mind on some things... a tri yearly closure on sensitive areas like from the falls up to the racehorse confluence or whatever i can name other stretches too...

 

single fly only to im all for fish you dry or bust ou a bobbr but dont do box thos ctiesget so hok shyand so many eple belly hook tons of em when they nip a the hoppers...

 

we need another campsite or two on the livingstone portion of the trunk road. syncline along the castle confluence and up on the carbondale. the people killing the msot fish are the only one for the pan crowd and teh c n r fly guys so horney to get more pictures of fish they caught the week prior! gettting mid teen cutties is a daily things so why handle them all the time for another picture... less camping wherver with more of a challenge and weeding out the lazies these fish will bounce back huge IMHO they dont live long and a few generations will be super abumdant again...

[Weedy1]

.. pgk is right i think if we had rod days the outfitters and flyshops with the highest seniority should have th dibs not some rich dude who barely guides looking to **** others over long term...

 

Entitlement should not be part of any equation concerning resources that belong to all of us. If there were to be licensing for guides in Alberta, a firm set of regulations and requirements should be set forth and those capable of meeting the criteria should have an opportunity to make use of the resource. Limits such as guide days would have to be set. Careful what you wish for.

 

[bigbowtrout]

Are there any other jurisdictions that do this the right way? Maybe adopt some of their best practices and add your own. Like PGK pointed out this needs to be a grass roots kinda thing.

 

 

I’m not a guide but if you guys need a hand coming up with a special hand shake or something then count me in.

 

[Bowfloat]

Like many have posted there can never be an association that could/would be able to govern itself.

 

I am of the view that instead of licensing the " guide " you license the boat used.

This licensed boat would have to requirement to be able to be licensed.

 

1- the boat would have to have the companies name on both sides big enough to read from either bank, shore or what ever.

Failing to have that you would be fined 5000 dollars. This would keep the wanna bee's from being a guide. It would also allow people to report infractions because you can see who there are.

2- the licensed boat would have all the necessary safety equipment ie: first aid kit that was not purchased at Princess Auto for $5.95

Not having a complete or unapproved equipment would be a $1000 fine. Boat would be subject to inspections at any time on the water or at the launch.

3- You are a guide from BC no problem is your boat a licensed Alberta guide boat. No that's a $5000 fine

4- Boat insurance as a licensed guide boat, no insurance guess what $1000 fine

 

I could go on but I believe there are others that might have some more ideas on this.

You would not have wanna bee's simply because they will not be interested in guiding when they have to put more effort into than it is worth if you are a part timer/wanna bee or just an ahole with a boat hoping to help with a couple of payments on said boat.

 

Just an opinion and it was free, so take it as so.

 

PS: There was a post about the cost of shuttles which I thought was not completely thought out, if you feel it cost to much to have 2 responsible people drive your vehicle and trailer to your get out spot maybe you should consider starting your own shuttle service to see just how much profit there is after paying these two responsible people and the fuel, wear and tear on the return vehicle.

[Jayhad]

Like many have posted there can never be an association that could/would be able to govern itself.

 

I am of the view that instead of licensing the " guide " you license the boat used.

This licensed boat would have to requirement to be able to be licensed.

 

1- the boat would have to have the companies name on both sides big enough to read from either bank, shore or what ever.

Failing to have that you would be fined 5000 dollars. This would keep the wanna bee's from being a guide. It would also allow people to report infractions because you can see who there are.

2- the licensed boat would have all the necessary safety equipment ie: first aid kit that was not purchased at Princess Auto for $5.95

Not having a complete or unapproved equipment would be a $1000 fine. Boat would be subject to inspections at any time on the water or at the launch.

3- You are a guide from BC no problem is your boat a licensed Alberta guide boat. No that's a $5000 fine

4- Boat insurance as a licensed guide boat, no insurance guess what $1000 fine

 

So a guide who only does wade and walks and isn't not Bow-centric how would he be regulated? This wouldn't solve the out of province guides working the foothills.

[Bowfloat]

So a guide who only does wade and walks and isn't not Bow-centric how would he be regulated? This wouldn't solve the out of province guides working the foothills.

 

 

I have no conclusive ideas how or even if it could regulate Walk and Wades other than.

 

To put the onis on to the renter to do his homework and ask questions to make sure you are hireing a professional "Guide". One that does not just do Walk and Wades but ownes and operates a Licenced Guide Boat.

 

If your complaint is that would be too much trouble than too bad for you. You get what you deseve.

 

I am sure no matter what is brought in there will still be thousand of BC guides coming into the foothills stealing food from your plate Jayhad.

[thecamel]

I am all for an association, the river itself would benefit from it, a group has a stronger voice than just one person. Question's I have are why do the guides want one?

I think an association will take money out of the pockets of guides by making things legit.

 

Insurance?

 

How many guides on the river on July long weekend actually have insurance?

If I die in the guides vehicle on the way from hotel to river because of the guides unsafe driving does he have liability insurance for that?

If I die on the river from food poisoning from the guides prepared lunch does he have liability insurance for that?

If I die from unsafe conditions on the river, such as floating river over 200m3s does he have liability insurance for that?

If you guide for a fly shop the fly shop will tell you you are covered under their insurance. Why would they hire you as a sub contractor if you were covered under their insurance. Lets say I hire you as a guide through a fly shop and I fell overboard and died, my family tries to sue the fly shop for liability, I guarantee you the fly shop will say I hired Joe Blow to provide a safe guiding service and my family lawyer will come after you.

Don't quote me on this but trying to get proper insurance to cover your ass is probably going to cost $5000.00 a year.

 

Taxes?

How many guides actually claim they make over 32k a year?

How many guides actually claim any income?

 

If people do get an association together good for you guys, I would love to see the people making a full time commitment to it become more successful and get rid of weekend guides. Just be careful what you wish for and try to leave the fly shops out of it, it is suppose to be a guide association not a fly shop association.

Mike.

[Jayhad]

I have no conclusive ideas how or even if it could regulate Walk and Wades other than.

Fair enough I don't have all or even any answers on how this should be managed or regulated, there are many places in the world where we could take policies from.

 

To put the onis on to the renter to do his homework and ask questions to make sure you are hireing a professional "Guide". One that does not just do Walk and Wades but ownes and operates a Licenced Guide Boat.

This is really the current system, buyer beware. I was trying to point out that a licenced boat system can't work as there are guides that have no interest in owning or using a boat, there are large area of this province where owning a licenced boat would be of no benefit to either guide or the consumer.

 

If your complaint is that would be too much trouble than too bad for you. You get what you deseve.

 

I am sure no matter what is brought in there will still be thousand of BC guides coming into the foothills stealing food from your plate Jayhad.

I've never stated or complained that any of this would be too much trouble, actually to the contrary I am posting this discussion to see what can be done and in the end if I can help. Go back and read, you will see I never said that anyone is stealing food from my plate, but I would like to see revenues generated off of Alberta resources staying in Alberta.... nothing to do with my plate or pocket.

 

If you read my first post my objective of this was to the betterment of the resource not anyones wallets, I feel a guides association all evils aside could bring one benefit of being a focused voice towards better management, but please don't read this as I am for or against a guides association.

 

finally, why you so mad bro

[Jayhad]

I am all for an association, the river itself would benefit from it, a group has a stronger voice than just one person. Question's I have are why do the guides want one?

I think an association will take money out of the pockets of guides by making things legit.

 

Insurance?

 

How many guides on the river on July long weekend actually have insurance?

If I die in the guides vehicle on the way from hotel to river because of the guides unsafe driving does he have liability insurance for that?

If I die on the river from food poisoning from the guides prepared lunch does he have liability insurance for that?

If I die from unsafe conditions on the river, such as floating river over 200m3s does he have liability insurance for that?

If you guide for a fly shop the fly shop will tell you you are covered under their insurance. Why would they hire you as a sub contractor if you were covered under their insurance. Lets say I hire you as a guide through a fly shop and I fell overboard and died, my family tries to sue the fly shop for liability, I guarantee you the fly shop will say I hired Joe Blow to provide a safe guiding service and my family lawyer will come after you.

Don't quote me on this but trying to get proper insurance to cover your ass is probably going to cost $5000.00 a year.

 

Taxes?

How many guides actually claim they make over 32k a year?

How many guides actually claim any income?

 

If people do get an association together good for you guys, I would love to see the people making a full time commitment to it become more successful and get rid of weekend guides. Just be careful what you wish for and try to leave the fly shops out of it, it is suppose to be a guide association not a fly shop association.

Mike.

 

Camel,

Don't be so sure it will take money out of guides pockets, there are cases in other areas where guides associations have had regulations put in place to make it more profitable

 

Liability insurance is actually much cheapier than $5000 for a single guy operation, all of the situations you stated should be covered except for food.. from my understanding if a guide is providing you with prepackaged food the onis is on the food manufacturer, if the guide is making the food it must conform to Alberta food safe laws, and there the guide could be open to liability. But if any of these do happen having your insurance renewed may be challenging to say the least.

 

Unsafe water conditions; who would know better if the water is unsafe than a guide, tough one to win in court. guide just needs to testify that he felt the water conditions were safe and from his experience they should have been. Plus if we are talking about drifting the Bow (down stream of the weir) there aren't to many hazards compared to many watersheds that have class 3 & 4 rapids.

 

If a guide doesn't carry insurance he's playing with fire period.

 

AS for tax purposes if you carry a business license and insurance and show no income year after year sooner or later rev can is going to want to know how you live....... tips, now I'm sure most of those don't get declared