ÜberFly Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I know this has been discussed previously, and I don't want to get into the story. We met an angry land owner (or son of the land owner) tonight and (to make a long story short) he said we were not able to fish the stream from the bank/high water mark as their land was deeded (historically), etc., and they owned everything except the actual stream bed (and thats how we needed to access the stream and fish the stream... I would like to confirm this. How do I? Can someone list the steps on how I can research this (or assist me in doing so)? *edit* I understand the act and the info from the AB Gov't, but what I want to research is this particular plot of land... Thanks, P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 What I did last time was I sent an email to srd.infocent@gov.ab.ca and after a day or two I had a reply with all the info I needed in regards to a place on the Crow. With 99% of all the water and beds being public I think those few that have bed rights should prove to you they have it. In any case I think that those of us who might try and fish these waters should carry a copy of the below with us at all times and let the land owner call the RCMP. Another option would be to just find another place to fish and leave the arsholes alone before someone gets shot. Water Boundaries Crown Ownership of Shorelands In Alberta, the province owns most of the beds and shores of all naturally occurring lakes, rivers and streams. In addition the province also owns most of the beds and shores of all permanent and naturally occurring bodies of water. These other bodies of water are primarily permanent wetlands. Section 3 of the Public Lands Act provides the legal mechanism for this ownership. The ownership of the beds and shores of a particular water body is not always obvious and its determination may require historical research to verify that ownership. Few land titles in Alberta mention water bodies. More often, the title description is silent to the ownership of beds and shores. Exceptions to the Crown's Ownership Some exceptions to the Crown's ownership of bed and shore apply. •Former Hudson's Bay Company lands: Prior to confederation of Canada, the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC) of fur traders through a Royal Charter from King Charles II of England, owned by deed what was then called Rupert's Land which included all the land in the Province of Alberta as we know it today. When the HBC surrendered its lands in 1870 to the Dominion of Canada, it did so with some conditions attached including the retention of a portion of lands for the HBC. These lands included their posts, a block of land adjoining each post, and a grant of land in each township within the lands set out for settlement not exceeding one twentieth of those lands. Of these lands, the HBC retained ownership of all lands south of the North Saskatchewan River within Section 8 and all of Section 26 except the northeast quarter section in every township as it was surveyed. In every fifth township surveyed, the HBC retained full title to all of Section 26 and all of Section 8 (see example in Figure 1). Figure 1. Township showing HBC lands in sections 8 and 26 (coloured grey). Today, the beds and shores within these parcels of land are generally understood to be owned by the current titleholder as titles based on the original deeds were passed onto subsequent landowners (unless expressly conveyed otherwise). •Grant/Title Specifically Includes Bed and Shore: The description of a grant of land and subsequent titles specifically include the beds and shores of a water body. •Federal lands: (e.g. National Parks, Military Reserves, Indian Reservations, Surrendered Indian Reserves) •Court Defined Rights: Rights to the beds and shores defined by a court of law. •Non-permanent Wetlands: In the settled area of Alberta, naturally occurring wetlands that are ephemeral, temporary or seasonal in nature are not permanent occurring bodies of water. •Undefined Stream Channels: Water features that that do not have a definable bed or channel are not owned by the Province. The Ordinary High Water Mark & the Legal Bank of a Water Body The line that separates the Crown owned bed and shore of a water body from the adjacent private land is called the legal bank. Its location is synonymous with what is commonly known as the "ordinary high water mark". Section 17 of the Surveys Act legally defines bed, bank and shore. The bank is a natural boundary formed by the action of water for a long enough time to leave its signature on the ground. Unless coincidental, it is not a historic high water mark, a flood line, or the current waterline. It is also a boundary that can move over time. Rivers continuously shift with changes in flow, as do lake levels when changes in climate occur, e.g., long-term drought. A plan of survey showing the boundary of a river or lake in 1905 may not be in the same location if surveyed today. A review of previous surveys and aerial photographs over time and a visual inspection of the vegetation and soil characteristics of a particular location may be required to verify the location of a boundary. It is the responsibility of a landowner to know where their property boundaries are. If the current location of a property boundary next to a water body needs to be established, the services of an Alberta Land Surveyor should be sought. Public Access to Public Water Bodies Access to the beds and shores of a river, stream, lake or other body of water is subject to legal access. For example, fishermen can access a stream through public roads, road allowances (developed or undeveloped), and commonly at bridge locations. If uplands must be crossed to reach a Crown owned water body or watercourse, the permission of a private landowner or Crown land leaseholder should be sought. Where the adjoining land is public land under lease, recreational users can obtain access information from the department's Recreational Access website. The beds and shores of a river or stream that are bounded by private land may generally be traversed below the ordinary high water mark without fear of trespass. At all times, users of beds and shores should "Use Respect" of the land. Be mindful of fence lines and gates that are required to keep livestock confined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yes thanks Chris, I have this doc. What info is required to send to srd?! Google map ref. or more detailed land description? The other issue, is that this particular land owner has blocked off access to the bridge - which I know he cannot do (oh and has barbwire across the stream as well, which is a no no, as well)!! P What I did last time was I sent an email to srd.infocent@gov.ab.ca and after a day or two I had a reply with all the info I needed in regards to a place on the Crow. With 99% of all the water and beds being public I think those few that have bed rights should prove to you they have it. In any case I think that those of us who might try and fish these waters should carry a copy of the below with us at all times and let the land owner call the RCMP. Another option would be to just find another place to fish and leave the arsholes alone before someone gets shot. Water Boundaries Crown Ownership of Shorelands In Alberta, the province owns most of the beds and shores of all naturally occurring lakes, rivers and streams. In addition the province also owns most of the beds and shores of all permanent and naturally occurring bodies of water. These other bodies of water are primarily permanent wetlands. Section 3 of the Public Lands Act provides the legal mechanism for this ownership. The ownership of the beds and shores of a particular water body is not always obvious and its determination may require historical research to verify that ownership. Few land titles in Alberta mention water bodies. More often, the title description is silent to the ownership of beds and shores. Exceptions to the Crown's Ownership Some exceptions to the Crown's ownership of bed and shore apply. •Former Hudson's Bay Company lands: Prior to confederation of Canada, the Hudson's Bay Company (HBC) of fur traders through a Royal Charter from King Charles II of England, owned by deed what was then called Rupert's Land which included all the land in the Province of Alberta as we know it today. When the HBC surrendered its lands in 1870 to the Dominion of Canada, it did so with some conditions attached including the retention of a portion of lands for the HBC. These lands included their posts, a block of land adjoining each post, and a grant of land in each township within the lands set out for settlement not exceeding one twentieth of those lands. Of these lands, the HBC retained ownership of all lands south of the North Saskatchewan River within Section 8 and all of Section 26 except the northeast quarter section in every township as it was surveyed. In every fifth township surveyed, the HBC retained full title to all of Section 26 and all of Section 8 (see example in Figure 1). Figure 1. Township showing HBC lands in sections 8 and 26 (coloured grey). Today, the beds and shores within these parcels of land are generally understood to be owned by the current titleholder as titles based on the original deeds were passed onto subsequent landowners (unless expressly conveyed otherwise). •Grant/Title Specifically Includes Bed and Shore: The description of a grant of land and subsequent titles specifically include the beds and shores of a water body. •Federal lands: (e.g. National Parks, Military Reserves, Indian Reservations, Surrendered Indian Reserves) •Court Defined Rights: Rights to the beds and shores defined by a court of law. •Non-permanent Wetlands: In the settled area of Alberta, naturally occurring wetlands that are ephemeral, temporary or seasonal in nature are not permanent occurring bodies of water. •Undefined Stream Channels: Water features that that do not have a definable bed or channel are not owned by the Province. The Ordinary High Water Mark & the Legal Bank of a Water Body The line that separates the Crown owned bed and shore of a water body from the adjacent private land is called the legal bank. Its location is synonymous with what is commonly known as the "ordinary high water mark". Section 17 of the Surveys Act legally defines bed, bank and shore. The bank is a natural boundary formed by the action of water for a long enough time to leave its signature on the ground. Unless coincidental, it is not a historic high water mark, a flood line, or the current waterline. It is also a boundary that can move over time. Rivers continuously shift with changes in flow, as do lake levels when changes in climate occur, e.g., long-term drought. A plan of survey showing the boundary of a river or lake in 1905 may not be in the same location if surveyed today. A review of previous surveys and aerial photographs over time and a visual inspection of the vegetation and soil characteristics of a particular location may be required to verify the location of a boundary. It is the responsibility of a landowner to know where their property boundaries are. If the current location of a property boundary next to a water body needs to be established, the services of an Alberta Land Surveyor should be sought. Public Access to Public Water Bodies Access to the beds and shores of a river, stream, lake or other body of water is subject to legal access. For example, fishermen can access a stream through public roads, road allowances (developed or undeveloped), and commonly at bridge locations. If uplands must be crossed to reach a Crown owned water body or watercourse, the permission of a private landowner or Crown land leaseholder should be sought. Where the adjoining land is public land under lease, recreational users can obtain access information from the department's Recreational Access website. The beds and shores of a river or stream that are bounded by private land may generally be traversed below the ordinary high water mark without fear of trespass. At all times, users of beds and shores should "Use Respect" of the land. Be mindful of fence lines and gates that are required to keep livestock confined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 If you have the legal description of the land you should be able to goto land titles and find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yeah he did mention that he has seen my car there before, so I presume if I park there again, he'll slash my tires or break my windows!! Another option would be to just find another place to fish and leave the arsholes alone before someone gets shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Time to find another access point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Yup! Time to find another access point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbowtrout Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Google maps is even blocked from his property. I think it might be a the Canadian Gov's area 51. Did you get probed? Also I found the old thread's and they are full of LOL's http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?...ic=9587&hl= Link works now. http://flyfishcalgary.com/board/index.php?...p;hl=sara's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 So here's an update... Haven't heard back from SRD. So to satisfy my curiosity, I've pulled the land title of the area in question (little bit of a task b/c the LSD came back as a cancelled title, so I had to do a little bit of work to find the title). A couple of things stand out. There is ABSOLUTELY NO historical reference listed on the title for this particular 1/4 sec. Unlike the title for the Sara's land (I've seen a portion of the title and they have 2 historical references relating the dates 1884 & 1904 - I can't include the reference in this post due to copyright as I didn't pull the title). Also there is no specific listing to bed and bank rights, but I understand that they are most likely not listed. There are quite a few caveats and easements, etc. b/c of O & G/Utility ROW, etc. and I'm getting some assistance with interpreting some of that... But initial interpretation by a couple of people that have been helping me out (they work with land titles every day) is this guy is full of Sh*t - but I'm still not 100% with that! I will continue to update... P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Din Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Regardless of where you fish, if it runs through private land always go and ask first. I have yet to have a problem if I do that. If they aren't home, go fish a different area and come back another time. This whole thing probably could have been avoided if you had done that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish4trout Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Regardless of where you fish, if it runs through private land always go and ask first. I have yet to have a problem if I do that. If they aren't home, go fish a different area and come back another time. This whole thing probably could have been avoided if you had done that. He would rather spend hours researching instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jusfloatin Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 He would rather spend hours researching instead... I am glad he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Well the BIG reason for all the research is for the "Educational Opportunity"!! Now I know how to get LSD's online, and pull a land title online for next time! Then, I can look up a contact name/address and get permission!! P I am glad he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrinhurst Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Well the BIG reason for all the research is for the "Educational Opportunity"!! Now I know how to get LSD's online, and pull a land title online for next time! Then, I can look up a contact name/address and get permission!! P And that in itself is worth all the time and effort. Good on ya Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Now I know how to get LSD's online, and pull a land title online for next time! P Would you mind sharing the links??.... Sounds very interesting... ... I should add- Its funny as this morn I was tryin to find on line who owned some land along the river, that I might want to camp on overnight, later this summer on a canoe trip down the SouthSask. River with my daughter.... Would like to at least let him know that I might be beachin along the river on a certain night, and to find out if he's ok with it, might save us some late eve. hassle... Cheers...Jeff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ÜberFly Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Here ya go Jeff (and everyone else) http://www.baseloc.com/ When you get on to the main page, choose DLS and then just zoom in on the area that you want then click on it and it will highlight the 1/4 section and then the specific 16th (should be obvious). Then you can go into the AB Gov't SPIN2 site put in the LSD and purchase your title, etc. Iasgair on this site posted a tutorial on the "Redneck" board on how to navigate the SPIN2 site. Here's her link: http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread....ight=land+title Have fun! P Would you mind sharing the links??.... Sounds very interesting... ... I should add- Its funny as this morn I was tryin to find on line who owned some land along the river, that I might want to camp on overnight, later this summer on a canoe trip down the SouthSask. River with my daughter.... Would like to at least let him know that I might be beachin along the river on a certain night, and to find out if he's ok with it, might save us some late eve. hassle... Cheers...Jeff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Thanx a lot for the info.... Im sure many will benefit from this... Cheers...Jeff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tungsten Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 You can also purchase an ownership map for the MD or county your interested in for 15$ This is much cheaper in the long run and for the most part you can find out where people live to ask for permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lad Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Interesting thread for sure. I am down in the pass and there is a a couple of people who are on the river and seem to live for conflict. I have never understood the animosity toward fisherman. Most fisherman/woman are very respectful of everyones property and are very friendly etc. and just want to fish- in peace. One individual has gone to the extent of giving me crap for not having "no trespassing" signs up or leaving agate open for access. We are not at all friends over this kind of behavior and this individual enjoys nothing more than berating fisherman for stepping on his land. To "even it up" i go the other way and tell the ones i run into to camp there if you want. The bad reflection on fisher people is the litter that accumulates where vehicles are parked as guys go fishing. I do also realize it is the exception rather than the rule as most people are very responsible in this regard. At the same time it is the only real point the neighbour has. Lannie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beedhead Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Looking at Cypress County's web site, I found they have land title maps that you can check out on the web page..... Pretty handy....Can just print em' off... Link below.. http://www.cypress.ab.ca/maps/Ownership%20Maps.htm Cheers...Jeff.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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