Pow/japanese Internment Camp Near Racehorse Creek

[bigalcal]

Last summer I was talking to some random campers/squatters on RHC and they told me there was a camp on Racehorse Creek during WWII. Does anybody have more info? Maybe this spring before opening day I'll jump on my bicycle and do some exploring. I think it's kinda neat. Could be a gold mine for old bottles out there!

[Guest 420FLYFISHIN]

i know there was one out at wasooch or in that area

[bigalcal]

There were quite a few in SW Alberta. if there was one in the area perhaps it was a sub-camp to build the FTR. Could that be possible? When was the FTR built? I would like to find more history about the area. Any one know where I could get more info on the local history? There are some old bridge pilings on RHC near the T junction where #517 meets #40.

[Taco]

Interestin' country, been used for yrs. Quite a few old cabins hidden 100yds back from the creeks, whiskey stills, rumrunner caches and the like. Hell I can show you a random camp that was carbon dated back 8-10,000 yrs. Know a guy who has an old hudson bay trade musket he found leanin' against the trunk of a douglas fir, complete with brass tacks.

 

 

[bigalcal]

Interestin' country, been used for yrs. Quite a few old cabins hidden 100yds back from the creeks, whiskey stills, rumrunner caches and the like. Hell I can show you a random camp that was carbon dated back 8-10,000 yrs. Know a guy who has an old hudson bay trade musket he found leanin' against the trunk of a douglas fir, complete with brass tacks.

 

Awesome!!

[ruffsranger]

We used to hunt extensively in the general area ( Racehorse, Dutch, Oldman ) many years ago & saw quite a few old decrepit shelters & small cabins.

I doubt if they had anything to do with internment camps though, as I sure they were there long before WW2.

[ÜberFly]

There was a spot on CBC Radio 2 a week or two ago with a BNP Historian talking about the WWI German POWs that were interned there...

 

As you drive into Kananaskis on Hwy 40 just past Barrier info centre, on the left you pass "The Colonel's Cabin" (where the staff accommodations are and the U of C buildings). That is where the WWII POW camp was.

 

You might want to contact the Glenbow Museum or someone at U of C they should have the answer for you...

 

Let us know what you fine out...

 

*Edit* here's some basic info:

 

http://www.albertasource.ca/homefront/ww2/...amps/index.html

 

http://members.memlane.com/djcarter/notes.htm

 

P

[Guest Sundancefisher]

There was a spot on CBC Radio 2 a week or two ago with a BNP Historian talking about the WWI German POWs that were interned there...

 

As you drive into Kananaskis on Hwy 40 just past Barrier info centre, on the left you pass "The Colonel's Cabin" (where the staff accommodations are and the U of C buildings). That is where the WWII POW camp was.

 

You might want to contact the Glenbow Museum or someone at U of C they should have the answer for you...

 

Let us know what you fine out...

 

*Edit* here's some basic info:

 

http://www.albertasource.ca/homefront/ww2/...amps/index.html

 

http://members.memlane.com/djcarter/notes.htm

 

P

 

I found this on Wikipedia...

 

It does not seem like there was an internment camp for Japanese in WW2 down south...but there was for Ukranians in WW1. There some books listed so I posted this.

 

Cheers

 

Sun

 

**********************************************************************

Japanese internment and relocation centres

Main article: Japanese Canadian internment

During World War II, Canada interned residents of Japanese and Italian ancestry. The Canadian government also interned citizens it deemed dangerous to national security. This included both fascists (including Canadians such as Adrien Arcand who had negotiated with Hitler to obtain positions in the government of Canada once Canada was conquered), Montreal mayor Camilien Houde (for denouncing conscription) and union organizers and other people deemed to be dangerous Communists. Such internment was made legal by the Defence of Canada Regulations, Section 21 of which read:

 

The Minister of Justice, if satisfied that, with a view to preventing any particular person from acting in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the safety of the State, it is necessary to do so, may, notwithstanding anything in these regulations, make an order [...] directing that he be detained by virtue of an order made under this paragraph, be deemed to be in legal custody.

Over 75% were Canadian citizens and they were vital in key areas of the economy, notable the fishery and also in logging and berry farming. Exile took two forms: relocation centres for families and relatively well-off individuals who were a low security threat, and interment camps (often called concentration camps in contemporary accounts, but controversially so) which were for single men, the less well-off, and those deemed to be a security risk. After the war, many did not return to the Coast because of bitter feelings as to their treatment, and fears of further hostility from non-Japanese citizens; of those that returned only about 25% regained confiscated property and businesses. Most remained in other parts of Canada, notably certain parts of the BC Interior and in the neighbouring province of Alberta.

 

[edit] Camps and relocation centres in the Kootenay region

Greenwood, Kaslo, Lemon Creek, New Denver, Rosebery, Salmo, Sandon, Slocan City, and Tashme. Some were nearly-empty ghost towns when the internment began, others, like Kaslo and Greenwood, while less populous than in their boom years, were substantial communities.[citation needed]

 

[edit] Camps and relocation centres elsewhere in BC

Bridge River, Minto City, McGillivray Falls, East Lillooet, Taylor Lake. Other than Taylor Lake, these were all called "Self-supporting centres", not internment camps. The first three listed were all in a mountainous area so physically isolated that fences and guards were not required as the only egress from that region was by rail or water only. McGillivray Falls and Tashme, on the Crowsnest Highway east of Hope, British Columbia, were just over the minimum 100 miles from the Coast required by the deportation order, though Tashme had direct road access over that distance, unlike McGillivray. Because of the isolation of the country immediately coast-wards from McGillivray, men from that camp were hired to work at a sawmill in what has since been named Devine, after the mill's owner, which is within the 100-mile quarantine zone. Many of those in the East Lillooet camp were hired to work in town, or on farms nearby, particularly at Fountain, while those at Minto and Minto Mine and those at Bridge River worked for the railway or the hydro company.[14][15][16][17][18]

 

[edit] Camps and relocation centres elsewhere in Canada

There were internment camps near Kananaskis, Alberta; Petawawa, Ontario; Hull, Quebec; Minto, New Brunswick; and Amherst, Nova Scotia.[citation needed]

 

[edit] Further information

Iwaasa, David B. "The Japanese In Southern Alberta, 1941-45." Alberta History 1976 24(3): 5-19.

Information at the University of Washington Libraries and Beyond

Japanese Canadian history.net bibliographical resources

Town of Sandon Historical Page on the Internment

Dangerous Patriots: Canada's Unknown Prisoners of War, by William Repka and Kathleen Repka, New Star Books, Vancouver, 1982 (ISBN 0-919573-06-1 or ISBN 0-919573-07-X). This book is a collection of first-hand stories from Canadian political prisoners during World War II.

[edit] Ukrainian Canadian internment

In World War I, 8,579 male "aliens of enemy nationality" were interned, including 5,954 Austro-Hungarians, most of whom were probably ethnic Ukrainians. Many of these internees were used for forced labour in internment camps. See Ukrainian Canadian internment, Castle Mountain Internment Camp, and Eaton Internment Camp.

 

[edit] Further Information

Internment of Ukrainians in Canada 1914-1920 at InfoUkes

Re: internment of Ukrainian Canadians by Orest Martynowych, Ukrainian Weekly

[seanbritt]

Hi Folks,

 

I want to give a bit of information regarding archaeology and archaeological sites before individuals head off to collect artifacts. Please note, reading this may save you $50,000 and/or imprisonment!

 

I am a professional archaeologist who is sanctioned and holds permits to conduct archaeology in the province of Alberta, so no, this information isn't coming from an amateur collector. In fact, I discovered a new internment camp during a project last year and conducted fieldwork as late as last Friday.

 

Anyhow, in the event you were not aware, it is against the law to dig for and/or collect historical resources. This term essentially means anything that is over 50 years old, which would be bottles from an old cabin or arrowheads from pre-historic sites. If discovered breaking this law, you could be fined up to $50,000 and/or imprisoned. Specifically, Section 52 of the Historical Resources Act states:

 

Offence and penalty

(1) A person who contravenes this Act or the regulations, the conditions of a permit, or a direction of the Minister under this Act is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not more than $50 000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than one year or to both fine and imprisonment. (http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?page=h09.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779726837)

 

Lawfulness aside, taking archaeological resources essentially erases any data we (the archaeological community) can collect about that site. For folks who have any interest in archaeology, you know that context is EVERYTHING. Spatial data (horizontal and vertical) is key, and once you move something, you take that information away.

 

The law is a bit different in the event you encounter a resource on your private property. In the event you come across an artifact while walking your land or digging in your garden, you can become a steward of that artifact for the people and province of Alberta. However, you cannot dig specifically to recover artifacts. Only sanctioned and permit holding archaeologists can conduct archaeological investigations.

 

Having said all this, I think we as an angling community have an amazing opportunity to add to the culture and history of our province and country. Rivers were the highways of the past. That being said, many archaeology sites are located along rivers. I will be giving a talk at Fish Tales in early April to talk about archaeology, what to look for, what to do in the event of finding something, etc. I hope all those who have an interest in preserving our past will be able to make it!

 

Cheers,

Sean

 

p.s. please feel free to P.M. me if you have any specific questions regarding the process and I can either answer directly or point you to the appropriate government regulator.

 

 

 

[bigalcal]

Hi Folks,

 

I want to give a bit of information regarding archaeology and archaeological sites before individuals head off to collect artifacts. Please note, reading this may save you $50,000 and/or imprisonment!

 

I am a professional archaeologist who is sanctioned and holds permits to conduct archaeology in the province of Alberta, so no, this information isn't coming from an amateur collector. In fact, I discovered a new internment camp during a project last year and conducted fieldwork as late as last Friday.

 

Anyhow, in the event you were not aware, it is against the law to dig for and/or collect historical resources. This term essentially means anything that is over 50 years old, which would be bottles from an old cabin or arrowheads from pre-historic sites. If discovered breaking this law, you could be fined up to $50,000 and/or imprisoned. Specifically, Section 52 of the Historical Resources Act states:

 

Offence and penalty

(1) A person who contravenes this Act or the regulations, the conditions of a permit, or a direction of the Minister under this Act is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine of not more than $50 000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than one year or to both fine and imprisonment. (http://www.qp.alberta.ca/574.cfm?page=h09.cfm&leg_type=Acts&isbncln=9780779726837)

 

Lawfulness aside, taking archaeological resources essentially erases any data we (the archaeological community) can collect about that site. For folks who have any interest in archaeology, you know that context is EVERYTHING. Spatial data (horizontal and vertical) is key, and once you move something, you take that information away.

 

The law is a bit different in the event you encounter a resource on your private property. In the event you come across an artifact while walking your land or digging in your garden, you can become a steward of that artifact for the people and province of Alberta. However, you cannot dig specifically to recover artifacts. Only sanctioned and permit holding archaeologists can conduct archaeological investigations.

 

Having said all this, I think we as an angling community have an amazing opportunity to add to the culture and history of our province and country. Rivers were the highways of the past. That being said, many archaeology sites are located along rivers. I will be giving a talk at Fish Tales in early April to talk about archaeology, what to look for, what to do in the event of finding something, etc. I hope all those who have an interest in preserving our past will be able to make it!

 

Cheers,

Sean

 

p.s. please feel free to P.M. me if you have any specific questions regarding the process and I can either answer directly or point you to the appropriate government regulator.

 

Thanks Sean,

I really didn't have any intentions to dig up bottles. I am more interested in the history. A friend in California often does excavations with his work and often there is a State official (Archeologist) there to check for artifacts etc. so I know about the legalities.

Your seminar sounds interesting. I will try and make it

[seanbritt]

Thanks Sean,

I really didn't have any intentions to dig up bottles. I am more interested in the history. A friend in California often does excavations with his work and often there is a State official (Archeologist) there to check for artifacts etc. so I know about the legalities.

Your seminar sounds interesting. I will try and make it

 

No worries. I wasn't trying to single anyone out and realize, after talking with many folks in the angling community, that individuals often come across artifacts when fishing. And to be honest, before I knew the importance of keeping things in their place, I would have collected cool stuff too! I hope to speak not only about what to look for, but what to do (e.g. Location info., what to describe, who to call).

 

I will try to bring some handouts so folks can identify stuff on their own and will also be bringing show and tell items. If I get permission, I'll bring some stuff from the internment camp too.

[ÜberFly]

Sean...

 

Will there be beer?!

 

 

P

 

No worries. I wasn't trying to single anyone out and realize, after talking with many folks in the angling community, that individuals often come across artifacts when fishing. And to be honest, before I knew the importance of keeping things in their place, I would have collected cool stuff too! I hope to speak not only about what to look for, but what to do (e.g. Location info., what to describe, who to call).

 

I will try to bring some handouts so folks can identify stuff on their own and will also be bringing show and tell items. If I get permission, I'll bring some stuff from the internment camp too.

 

[seanbritt]

Sean...

 

Will there be beer?!

 

 

P

 

No beer, but I'll make coffee!

[Pipestoneflyguy]

One of my fav lunch spots on the Kicking horse (Ottertail) is on the remnants of a hand made log retaining wall at an old internment site - most folks never even notice the human evidence at the site. I think it is kind of cool to sit there enjoying one of the most beautiful valley views this country has, and wonder how different the perspect must have been for someone, who for all intents and purposes was a POW sitting in the same place looking at the same view. The idea of catching a fish for "fun" and then releasing that "gourmet meal" back into the river would have seemed so ridiculous and wasteful to those unfortunate souls.

 

 

[trailhead]

Oh oh, one day I was wading in the Bow. I looked down and swore the rock at my feet was an old native american axe head. I took it home, am I in a precarious position now?

[Jeffro]

Oh oh, one day I was wading in the Bow. I looked down and swore the rock at my feet was an old native american axe head. I took it home, am I in a precarious position now?

surface collection is allowed in Alberta although there are some gray areas in the legalities. I'm not 100% clear on the rules with crown land, but from what I've been told from our Arky's at the company I work for it is ok, just not very moral from their standpoint.

 

Tightline should be able to clarify if I'm totally out to lunch without my wallet.

[seanbritt]

Trailhead/Jeffro,

 

Technically, according to provincial law, collection of any cultural resources on public or private land (that is not your land) is illegal. However, clearly you did not have any ill-intention and if you sent it to Alberta Culture and Community Spirit they would be able to curate it for you. Now, there may be some additional wording in the Historical Resources Act that pertains to "material at risk" e.g. erosion, etc.. I will re-read the act on this aspect and get back to you.

 

I will be giving a presentation tomorrow at 1:00 at Fish Tales. I'll be going over basics of archaeology, what types of sites are found in AB, along the Bow, what different sites look like, what different artifacts look like and what to do if you find something. I'll have coffee on, LOTS of goodies for show and tell, and even some swag to give away (non-fishing related).

 

Jeffro, if you bring in your artifact I could take a look at it and show you how to fill out a form to properly record it. Then you're on your way to being an archaeologist! Don't worry, the police won't be waiting for you, I promise .

 

Cheers,

Sean

[Pipestoneflyguy]

Just so its said, it's not appropriate to pick up historic artifacts in the national parks

 

Pursuing a matter of personal interest a few years back I attempted to compile a list of abandoned off highway vehicles in the area (you would be shocked to know how many are actually hidden out there, (there is even one in a tree at the bottom of a ravine). After being told I could have one in a particular (a WW2) jeep if I could devise a strategy to remove it (it is 15km off the highway) I asked the archeology department to define at which point does a piece of trash (abandoned vehicle for example) actually become a historic articfact (also citing an old Jimmy Simpson food cache I found in a river bank) - needless to say it provoked an interesting conversation that has no one right answer.

 

One interesting aspect of fishing the parks is that there is much less pressure the odds of finding interesting things is so much higher, most river banks are pretty tough travel near headwaters so not much traffic per se - I know a couple years back I posted about a rough coffin a friend found that had a skeleton in it that likely came from the same camp I mentioned above. Other intesting finds include canvas hand made canoe preserved in muck, a perfectly preserverd trappers cabin still stocked with cans on the shelves, the list goes on - the Parks are fascinating if you can get yourself off the established trails once in a while and explore - just make sure you leave things the way you found em for the next person

 

I wish I could have made your presentation Sean, bet it was an interesting discussion.

[bigalcal]

Just so its said, it's not appropriate to pick up historic artifacts in the national parks

 

Pursuing a matter of personal interest a few years back I attempted to compile a list of abandoned off highway vehicles in the area (you would be shocked to know how many are actually hidden out there, (there is even one in a tree at the bottom of a ravine). After being told I could have one in a particular (a WW2) jeep if I could devise a strategy to remove it (it is 15km off the highway) I asked the archeology department to define at which point does a piece of trash (abandoned vehicle for example) actually become a historic articfact (also citing an old Jimmy Simpson food cache I found in a river bank) - needless to say it provoked an interesting conversation that has no one right answer.

 

One interesting aspect of fishing the parks is that there is much less pressure the odds of finding interesting things is so much higher, most river banks are pretty tough travel near headwaters so not much traffic per se - I know a couple years back I posted about a rough coffin a friend found that had a skeleton in it that likely came from the same camp I mentioned above. Other intesting finds include canvas hand made canoe preserved in muck, a perfectly preserverd trappers cabin still stocked with cans on the shelves, the list goes on - the Parks are fascinating if you can get yourself off the established trails once in a while and explore - just make sure you leave things the way you found em for the next person

 

I wish I could have made your presentation Sean, bet it was an interesting discussion.

 

I have found Jimmy Simpson in a snowbank!!! How is he anyways? Oh.....I enjoy your comments. Pretty neat stuff in those hills!!

[Gaffer]

One of my fav lunch spots on the Kicking horse (Ottertail) is on the remnants of a hand made log retaining wall at an old internment site - most folks never even notice the human evidence at the site. I think it is kind of cool to sit there enjoying one of the most beautiful valley views this country has, and wonder how different the perspect must have been for someone, who for all intents and purposes was a POW sitting in the same place looking at the same view. The idea of catching a fish for "fun" and then releasing that "gourmet meal" back into the river would have seemed so ridiculous and wasteful to those unfortunate souls.

 

If you have not checked out the upcoming film The Manzanar Fishing Club. It is about interned Japanese Americans who would sneak out of the camp to go fishing. You can watch the first 20 minutes of the documentary at the web site http://www.fearnotrout.com/

 

I find local history to be very interesting. If anyone finds the lost lemon mine please let me know.

 

Andrew

 

[seanbritt]

Jeffro and Company,

 

Per your question collecting artifacts from the surface, I've re-read the act a few times now, and it states that all resources belong to the Crown. Therefore, it is illegal to collect these resources from public land. If you find something on the surface on your private land, it is still property of the Crown, but you can elect to take care of it (including any necessary curation, etc.) on behalf of the Crown. Alternatively, if you don't wish to take care of it on behalf of the Crown, you can send it to Alberta Culture and Community Spirit in Edmonton.

 

Hope this helps clarify things!

Sean

[Jeffro]

Jeffro and Company,

 

Per your question collecting artifacts from the surface, I've re-read the act a few times now, and it states that all resources belong to the Crown. Therefore, it is illegal to collect these resources from public land. If you find something on the surface on your private land, it is still property of the Crown, but you can elect to take care of it (including any necessary curation, etc.) on behalf of the Crown. Alternatively, if you don't wish to take care of it on behalf of the Crown, you can send it to Alberta Culture and Community Spirit in Edmonton.

 

Hope this helps clarify things!

Sean

 

I was under the impression that although it belongs to the crown you can still become a steward of said artifact/historical resource. An example that comes to mind would be the collection of ammonite/ammolite. It is legal (at least I thought so) to collect provided you do not have to dig it out of the ground, but you can only sell it with the appropriate disposition. Ammonite and its gem stone are primarily found on crown land (unless you go to the mines or a few private land locations).

 

If this is not the case (and I am only pressing the issue further to ensure I as well as thousands of other folks down south aren't in contradiction of the law) than I will be sure to advise others of the rules of collection.

[seanbritt]

Jeffro,

 

Good question. There is one main difference between the two examples you state. That is, archaeology is a destructive science. As soon as you remove the object from its context, you also loose all data along with it. That is why there are so many regulations in place and why only qualified experts are permitted to run archaeological projects.

 

While I think the idea of being a steward is a great one, it is a double edged sword. On the one hand, it helps the government protect our resources, on the other, people can unknowingly cause major disruption to the knowledge of a valuable resource. While I can't speak for why the government enacted the law, I would imagine this would be have played a huge factor in their creation of the act and subsequent revisions.

 

So, just to clarify again (like you said Jeffro, for those folks following), it is illegal to collect historical resources, and states as much with the associated $50k and/or jail time, in the Historical Resources Act.

 

The ammonite example you mention is likely allowed as it was established by a different act.

 

Sean

 

p.s. Thanks for the PM, been meaning to get back to you but its been a crazy day! Will pm later....

 

I was under the impression that although it belongs to the crown you can still become a steward of said artifact/historical resource. An example that comes to mind would be the collection of ammonite/ammolite. It is legal (at least I thought so) to collect provided you do not have to dig it out of the ground, but you can only sell it with the appropriate disposition. Ammonite and its gem stone are primarily found on crown land (unless you go to the mines or a few private land locations).

 

If this is not the case (and I am only pressing the issue further to ensure I as well as thousands of other folks down south aren't in contradiction of the law) than I will be sure to advise others of the rules of collection.

[Jeffro]

Thanks for clarifying for me tightlines. I think my confusion stems from grouping all things older than Clive as the same regarding legal matters.