It's A Big River

[fishpro]

15-20 years ago, I could bike down to the bow and guaranteed I would get the same spot, all the time. Rare to see others, even in fish creek. Neoprenes where a luxury back then, but most wore hip waders. The explosion of fishers on all the waters directly coincides with the invention of FFC. Here, ginners can mooch info off of guys who cant wait to tell someone how much they know. Theres a freakin Bow River update thread, you kiddin me? Hey updater...lemme know whats hatching, where, and at what time so I can go fish the bow. MOD EDIT

 

How about other forums? How about all the magazines talking about the Bow River and promoting it throughout North America? Why do you think it's just this forum? And how do you know, you've only been registered here for two months.

[DaveJensen]

Just looking beyond the occurrence with wider scale perspective...

The irony for me is the title of the thread. It isn't a big river. If you fly over it, it's simply a little ribbon on the landscape tied to a massive landbase of people. The ribbon of car traffic on hwy #2 is much larger. Those same people that use the river every day. In fall, winter and spring, there is precious little space to spread out and call 'ours'.

There's inherent irony embedded in this post - the fact that someone feels a part of the fly fishing community to express something negative that happened, that he'll feel connected and supported, if not commiserated with by its members. The irony is that the community supporting him is, to some degree, fostering additional participation in the sport and growing the problem.

The rod breaking is unfortunate. Negative interaction is unfortunate. However, it is part of what we are called on in society to own for ourselves, to realize that in every part of our life, we are at conflict with something or someone, at every moment in our lives. The fallacy perpetuated by the outdoor lifestyle is that everything is wonderful and everyone can have 'theirs'. We can't. But we buy into the fairy tale that we perpetuate in our minds. Does anyone here have a mind's eye dream of a perfect fly fishing moment where there are 10 strangers beside you on the water? The myth we play out in our head at some point has to connect to reality for us to be functional in reality.

Eventually, if we repeat the same exercise often, to gain a data set that shows a trend, if we can admit to ourselves that certain things are going to happen if we take part in that activity, we have to pay attention to the data set. We also ultimately have to observe, own, and accept how it affects us, then own our feelings and response to it. We are no rulers of any water. There are hundreds of others who daily use the resource for the same experience in the same finite amount of space. Each of us wants 'ours'. There's your inherent conflict.

What psychological state does it reflect to continue to do the same activity, be subjected to or initiate the same conflicts, and expect things to turn in our favor? At what point do we observe what is happening, how the evolution is impacting the activity, be honest about our personalities, and make an honest effort to change how we perceive and deal with the conflict? At what point do we accept the data set that says "this is the way it is", and recognize that with or without us, that conflict is always going to be there, and accept it? At what point do we not let such a simple reality not impact our life, that we can enjoy the day, regardless of what others are or aren't doing? At what point do we adjust our expectations accordingly?

We can pine for how things were. Those days and ways are never coming back, and the memories of days gone by are also muddled by the same mind's eye fairy tale that told us it has always been wonderful. It wasn't and never will be perfect like we remember. It's one thing to reflect and learn, it's another to impose or project, add to the conflict or demand the world behave the way we want it to. Nature doesn't respond that way. It rarely favours anyone. It is simply up to us individually how we wish to act, react, and interact in each of these moments. Of course, we can interact to hope for a better future by chatting with people we perceive to be infringing upon us, to hope they see it our way. Sharing why etiquette is what it is to us - should be a good, positive thing. But each of us is only one of 300K fishers with a perspective of what etiquette is.

These are just some of the thoughts and observations I made along the ride at our old forum, and continue seeing to this day on various forums.

Cheers

 

[bigbowtrout]

Great post Dave but it's still your fault

[Bigtoad]

twobyfour and whataniceguy; I'm sorry, but I've read several of your posts on this thread and others and I've got to say that you both seem like real *** to me.

 

This site has nothing to do with the increase in fishing pressure on "your" rivers and has done much more good than harm. To blame a single site for the increase in fishing pressure as well as increase in idiots fishing is naive and pretty absurd.

 

An example: When I joined the site, several years ago, I posted a picture of a brown trout I caught on the RD that I had put on the rocks so that I could get a better picture. I got blasted for it by some but I learned something that day; I shouldn't be putting fish on rocks. Good lesson. I've learned many valuable lessons on this website including respecting fish and respecting the water that I fish on, and respecting the other fisherman that I share the water with. It is a very valuable tool, not only in improving my own fishing, but also in giving back to the sport that I love.

 

You will always encounter idiots either when fishing or on a website forums. The only thing you can really do is accept that people do stupid things, call out the people making the stupid mistake, and let them know what they have done wrong.... not unlike what I am currently doing right now.

 

If you don't like the website, then do us all a favor please and get off of it!

[Giovanne]

twobyfour and whataniceguy; I'm sorry, but I've read several of your posts on this thread and others and I've got to say that you both seem like real *** to me. This site has nothing to do with the increase in fishing pressure on "your" rivers and has done much more good than harm. To blame a single site for the increase in fishing pressure as well as increase in idiots fishing is naive and pretty absurd. An example: When I joined the site, several years ago, I posted a picture of a brown trout I caught on the RD that I had put on the rocks so that I could get a better picture. I got blasted for it by some but I learned something that day; I shouldn't be putting fish on rocks. Good lesson. I've learned many valuable lessons on this website including respecting fish and respecting the water that I fish on, and respecting the other fisherman that I share the water with. It is a very valuable tool, not only in improving my own fishing, but also in giving back to the sport that I love.You will always encounter idiots either when fishing or on a website forums. The only thing you can really do is accept that people do stupid things, call out the people making the stupid mistake, and let them know what they have done wrong.... not unlike what I am currently doing right now. If you don't like the website, then do us all a favor please and get off of it!

 

To say that this (and other websites) have not increased pressure on the Bow is absurd. As well look at all the other out of the way water that now gets regular reports, videos posted, etc. Before the internet and sites like this it was trial and error to find a good run, knowing what pattern, etc. Now you just have to read a report or two to see what is working, and where. Not saying it is the end all be all, but some time behind the keyboard puts a guy way ahead compared to years ago. We live in an age where people want instant gratification, and it has never been easier. Tie on a nymph and catch 30 fish, this is what is popular now.

 

The real Bow is still there, and those that have it dialed still keep it tight to the hip. Oh ya, having it dialed does not include fishing a worm under an indi....

[Mikey]

Heard about the Bow river decades ago in my home town of Leamington, Ont. Pretty sure my comodore 64 didn't get the interweb. Pretty sure you guys are just playing the blame game as is so common this day and age.

[Giovanne]

Heard about the Bow river decades ago in my home town of Leamington, Ont. Pretty sure my comodore 64 didn't get the interweb. Pretty sure you guys are just playing the blame game as is so common this day and age.

 

You have hit on the other problem. Easterners moving here.

 

[tgo]

To say that this (and other websites) have not increased pressure on the Bow is absurd. As well look at all the other out of the way water that now gets regular reports, videos posted, etc. Before the internet and sites like this it was trial and error to find a good run, knowing what pattern, etc. Now you just have to read a report or two to see what is working, and where. Not saying it is the end all be all, but some time behind the keyboard puts a guy way ahead compared to years ago. We live in an age where people want instant gratification, and it has never been easier. Tie on a nymph and catch 30 fish, this is what is popular now.

 

The real Bow is still there, and those that have it dialed still keep it tight to the hip. Oh ya, having it dialed does not include fishing a worm under an indi....

 

 

so what's your problem? Is it the fact that more people are fishing the Bow or that more guys catching fish on the Bow nymphing with a worm? I have a suggestion, quit living in the past and just be lucky you got to fish the Bow before the pressure got to where it is now. I've flyfished the Bow only since the late-90's because I'm fairly young and lived in Sask half my life, you have a problem with me moving here? I don't need the Bow river reports from guys on here to know what to fish and where. This has been covered in countless articles in articles and books. Hatch charts are easy to find anywhere. I don't get your logic. Try fishing almost anywhere in Montana and the whole state has less people than Calgary.

 

Maybe the problem is the increased fishing pressue is pissing you off because perhaps they've gotten harder to catch? The numbers are still pretty high based on the studies I've read, although I'd like to see them manage the whitefish fishery a bit better. So again what's your problem? Having to walk more than 10 minutes from your car to find some room?

[duanec]

Just looking beyond the occurrence with wider scale perspective...

...

Negative interaction is unfortunate. However, it is part of what we are called on in society to own for ourselves, to realize that in every part of our life, we are at conflict with something or someone, at every moment in our lives. The fallacy perpetuated by the outdoor lifestyle is that everything is wonderful and everyone can have 'theirs'...

The myth we play out in our head at some point has to connect to reality for us to be functional in reality....

Nature doesn't respond that way. It rarely favours anyone. It is simply up to us individually how we wish to act, react, and interact in each of these moments. Of course, we can interact to hope for a better future by chatting with people we perceive to be infringing upon us, to hope they see it our way. Sharing why etiquette is what it is to us - should be a good, positive thing. But each of us is only one of 300K fishers with a perspective of what etiquette is.

sorry...on friday afternoon it was a big river with lots of open space...lots of prime water and great runs open with no one around, etc. and no, i don't own any of it. but i do take some ownership of it, and treat the resource as if it i were a steward, and treat my fellow anglers and other users with some degree of care and courtesy and try to 'do unto others'. there was no myth at work...i have no idyllic fantasies where the bow river is mine alone...i considered it fortunate that i had the spot to myself. i believe fundamentally we can all share and co-exist. there is a 'community' out there & on this board and i have found other reasonable and like minded people [and some haters, but that's life, and esp. life on the internests] with whom i share some core beliefs and values, and so there exists some level norms and expectations.

seriously, i have had several loaner offers from people i have never met or really interacted with before [awesome btw].

they don't know me from jack at all but will lend me some quality gear. explain?

in the great natural order, it's dog eat dog. bigger and tougher and meaner you get to stay and eat and survive. i am generally a reasonable and easy going person that will avoid conflict [and therefore generally prone to going away with my tail btwn my legs and whine about it later ] however i got pushed to my 'snapping point' by some discourteous experienced anglers who actually know better but conciously or not determined that was thier spot regardless of any other considerations but thier own.

for a change, i decided not to roll over and play dead this time, and i shared in the continued hopes that we or a small sampling of the 300k fishers out there are all able to review our own behaviours...and ocassionally rise above the natural order and take into consideration others and the environment and the resource when we are out there.

 

[Bigtoad]

To say that this (and other websites) have not increased pressure on the Bow is absurd. As well look at all the other out of the way water that now gets regular reports, videos posted, etc. Before the internet and sites like this it was trial and error to find a good run, knowing what pattern, etc. Now you just have to read a report or two to see what is working, and where. Not saying it is the end all be all, but some time behind the keyboard puts a guy way ahead compared to years ago. We live in an age where people want instant gratification, and it has never been easier. Tie on a nymph and catch 30 fish, this is what is popular now.

 

The real Bow is still there, and those that have it dialed still keep it tight to the hip. Oh ya, having it dialed does not include fishing a worm under an indi....

 

Giovanne, the problem I have with both of these guys is that they are bitching entirely about THIS site. I'll admit, the internet has probably increased pressure (not only fishing pressure) in certain areas of the province, but to single this site out, regardless of all of the good it has done and tries to do, is absurd.

 

How many of the random-camping-shanty-town-atv-driving-bait-chuckers that have infested the Livingstone and many other areas of the province have used this site to find out where to go? I know that there are atver's and RVer's that use this site but most seem very responsible in their use of the land and equally disgusted by the other users who do not. In fact, this site has deterred me (and I am sure many others) from fishing the Livingstone because of all of the crap I here about with the random campers and quad users. There might be other sites you could try to blame for the increase in use of areas of Alberta but to blame this one? Really?

 

As several have already said; to understand why things are so crowded (relatively) you just have to look at the population increase of Alberta in the last decade and notice the amount of RVs heading out to the foothills every weekend. To single out this site as the main reason your precious fishing areas 30 years ago aren't like you remember is like blaming a guy who drives a hybrid for global warming. Sure, they might be a tiny, minuscule part of the problem, but not the main one by a landslide, and at least they recognize the issue and are trying desperately to do something about it.

 

And as I said before, if they don't like the site, and believe it is from the depths of hell itself: then don't be hypocritical and post on it! Go bugger off and bitch on some site that actually is part of the problem and not one that is trying to solve it.

 

You know, take the twobyfour out of your own freaking eye before taking the sliver out of someone else's.

 

 

 

[Giovanne]

so what's your problem? Is it the fact that more people are fishing the Bow or that more guys catching fish on the Bow nymphing with a worm? I have a suggestion, quit living in the past and just be lucky you got to fish the Bow before the pressure got to where it is now. I've flyfished the Bow only since the late-90's because I'm fairly young and lived in Sask half my life, you have a problem with me moving here? I don't need the Bow river reports from guys on here to know what to fish and where. This has been covered in countless articles in articles and books. Hatch charts are easy to find anywhere. I don't get your logic. Try fishing almost anywhere in Montana and the whole state has less people than Calgary.

 

Maybe the problem is the increased fishing pressue is pissing you off because perhaps they've gotten harder to catch? The numbers are still pretty high based on the studies I've read, although I'd like to see them manage the whitefish fishery a bit better. So again what's your problem? Having to walk more than 10 minutes from your car to find some room?

 

I have no problem, get a thicker skin. Just commenting on my perception of things.

 

Stating that it is easier to fiure out where to go, how to get there, and what patterns to use because of sites like this. I do admit I liked how it used to be, but this is how it is now. I am on here and read things too, just not giving it all up on reports and such.

 

The disclaimer is there seems to be 2 types of reports on this site; the kind where a couple of tasteful pictures get posted, some general comments, and some scenery pictures. These are great and makes me want to get my act together and get better at pictures like this. Great to read and I should do my part as It adds to a great site. You don't have to give up the goods on an area to put together an entertaining report. Let people do their own recon, figure where to go.

 

Then there are the second kind; the ones where one boasts of crazy numbers of fish (rarely if ever a picture) and the two or three buddies that were fishing together talk to eack other via the report for all to read, slapping each other on the back for days on the report thread about what a great day they had and they should do it again. This adds nothing to the site, IMO.

 

One thing with all of this talk of too much pressure that rarely gets mentioned is limiting the guide days. Go to the FC or Police launch in the summer at 9:00 AM and it is a traffic jam of boats putting in. These are the people making money off of the resource, nothing wrong with that but it sure has gotten busy with guide boats. The current sysyem of it being a free for all should definately be addressed since we are talking of the increased pressure the Bow River receives. Before there are any regulation changes in regard to power boats, regulation changes that effect residents, etc the number of guide boats has to be addressed. I believe this to be the single biggest increase to fishing pressure on the lower Bow.

[snuffy]

What those guys did is reprehensible that just reading about it got me so mad I wasn't sure I'd be able to sleep Friday night. And if they didn't know it was wrong, they should have their birth certificates revoked. This sort of thing has been mercifully rare for me, but my response is always the same: start throwing rocks and walking upstream, since drift boats only travel in one direction.

 

There are many things driving the crowding of our rivers: our population has doubled; the quadding/poaching crew have destroyed many, concentrating demand on the remnants; and our sport has started to compete with golf as the hobby of choice for retiring baby boomers (have you seen a "learn to fly fish" class lately?). Compared with these trends, I don't think we can assign primary culpability to this site. After all, I have a bunch of Fly Fisherman magazines here from the 80s with the Bow River plastered all over them.

 

If the crowds bother you, I do sympathize, but one does not go to the Livingstone looking for solitude. However, there are remedies. One is to improve your skills to the point where you can catch fish on the difficult waters that most quickly give up on. The other would be to watch a few Humblefisherman videos, catch some inspiration, and go find your own special places. It may not be a big river, but it can still be a big province if you can keep your own secrets.

[Gaffer]

Like most things it is probably numerous causes. Calgary has had explosive growth in the last decade so it stands to reason that there would be more people on the river.

 

I have heard that it is the same problem with golf courses, which is one more reason not to golf.

 

Andrew

[whataniceguy]

Giovanne, the problem I have with both of these guys is that they are bitching entirely about THIS site. I'll admit, the internet has probably increased pressure (not only fishing pressure) in certain areas of the province, but to single this site out, regardless of all of the good it has done and tries to do, is absurd.

 

How many of the random-camping-shanty-town-atv-driving-bait-chuckers that have infested the Livingstone and many other areas of the province have used this site to find out where to go? I know that there are atver's and RVer's that use this site but most seem very responsible in their use of the land and equally disgusted by the other users who do not. In fact, this site has deterred me (and I am sure many others) from fishing the Livingstone because of all of the crap I here about with the random campers and quad users. There might be other sites you could try to blame for the increase in use of areas of Alberta but to blame this one? Really?

 

As several have already said; to understand why things are so crowded (relatively) you just have to look at the population increase of Alberta in the last decade and notice the amount of RVs heading out to the foothills every weekend. To single out this site as the main reason your precious fishing areas 30 years ago aren't like you remember is like blaming a guy who drives a hybrid for global warming. Sure, they might be a tiny, minuscule part of the problem, but not the main one by a landslide, and at least they recognize the issue and are trying desperately to do something about it.

 

And as I said before, if they don't like the site, and believe it is from the depths of hell itself: then don't be hypocritical and post on it! Go bugger off and bitch on some site that actually is part of the problem and not one that is trying to solve it.

 

You know, take the twobyfour out of your own freaking eye before taking the sliver out of someone else's.

 

 

@ Bigtoad

 

Im not bitching about anything, Im just not blind to the impact it's had. Its my thoughts and I knew I would get flamed, its how things work! Everyone new and young gets there panties in a bunch, its just how it goes. Im not going to get all uptight and say your a jerk for ripping me, I just dont care. You clearly have not seen the change since the website started up. I have also talked to a few higher ranking memeber on this site, people that have been around for awhile and its always the same conversation. "Man I wish I could go back and start this over" "Geez I feel partially responsible for whats gone around here" etc. so do I. Its always the same content. I believe were Im coming from is correct Ive heard to many people say the exact same thing. You just wont hear it here because no one wants to wreck the good standing and get flamed like me! Funny enough as well most of the people I new or know dont even frequent this site anymore, its more or less just guys like you that want to be in there good with the majority. Anyways bro, you went way to far with your flame. I wasnt talking about the Livingstone, random campers or driving a hybrid lol (how does thast even get brought up). It was a comment directed at the Bow river and the increase since the website started to grow. Im not sure were you are coming from but there is nothing about this site that states trying to fix a problem as a matter fact by your post there isnt one is there?

[whataniceguy]

How about other forums? How about all the magazines talking about the Bow River and promoting it throughout North America? Why do you think it's just this forum? And how do you know, you've only been registered here for two months.

 

 

Ive met you man, you seem like anice guy and a good flyfisher. But your comment is whats wrong here. I can pick up a mag and read about fishing bones in Florida, Doesnt mean Im going there. This is a local issue. It has nothing to do with people that dont live or fish here, its the daly activity and how huge its gotten since its inception. Yes the Bow is well known but people coming here to fish the river for two days once every three years arent the problem. Not that there is a problem, someone posted a rant about getting poached and I posted my opinion about why there is so much poaching going on these days. Everybody needs to mellow out and let everyone speak there mind. Like I said before, it doesnt matter who posts what, a fight is sure to start up. Fights start because of ignorant people who just refuse to see it any other way.

[whataniceguy]

What those guys did is reprehensible that just reading about it got me so mad I wasn't sure I'd be able to sleep Friday night. And if they didn't know it was wrong, they should have their birth certificates revoked. This sort of thing has been mercifully rare for me, but my response is always the same: start throwing rocks and walking upstream, since drift boats only travel in one direction.

 

There are many things driving the crowding of our rivers: our population has doubled; the quadding/poaching crew have destroyed many, concentrating demand on the remnants; and our sport has started to compete with golf as the hobby of choice for retiring baby boomers (have you seen a "learn to fly fish" class lately?). Compared with these trends, I don't think we can assign primary culpability to this site. After all, I have a bunch of Fly Fisherman magazines here from the 80s with the Bow River plastered all over them.

 

If the crowds bother you, I do sympathize, but one does not go to the Livingstone looking for solitude. However, there are remedies. One is to improve your skills to the point where you can catch fish on the difficult waters that most quickly give up on. The other would be to watch a few Humblefisherman videos, catch some inspiration, and go find your own special places. It may not be a big river, but it can still be a big province if you can keep your own secrets.

 

Just to clarify one thing. People say the population has doubled so that must be part of the problem. It hasnt doubled in the last 5 years thats for sure so I think Population has had a minimal affect on the over crowding/poaching problem. Back in the 80's you could fish this river anyday anytime anywhere so I also dont think the mags are the issue either. But since the website started up thet #'s have tripled or more for membership, pics have been posted, fights have started, low holing has becaome a regular occurance, drift boats are now being replaced by jet boats and I have seen it from the begining. Two years ago if you mentioned the words JET BOAT it wouldve started a mutniy, now its commen place and acceptable by all. Im still not down with Jets Boats on the Bow!!! Im with you on this one man, people suck sometimes and they ruined your day. People who arent stupid and or blind can clearly see whats going on, on the other hand people will protect whats theres and for the most part if people want acceptance people will follow! This is were I tend to get into trouble, if somthing is black and someone calls it white I will say no thats black lol. If there are enough people that want to be on the white side it really doesnt matter what shade of black it is, its still white!

[CTownTBoyz]

I don't know about this website specifically increasing traffic on the Bow. The million people adjacent the river, not to mention the 4 or 5 (?) fly shops and 100+ guides promoting and selling the Bow are probably the main culprits....

 

I do however; believe this website and the internet in general has had a huge impact on lesser known waters. I could fish The Gap ten years ago on a weekend and find seclusion. This summer I've never seen it so busy. It was a bummer, but I'm lucky I got to fish it ten and twenty years ago when nobody was around....

 

Smitty wrote:

Question for you:

 

"How is this website any different from picking up the phone and phoning one of the 6 fly shops in the city for a fishing report?" Hmmmmmm...

 

It is much different. In a fly shop there is a certain amount of discreetness when discussing locations. Some waters are never mentioned because they are too delicate or metaphorically ‘sacred’ to be shared en masse. A website allows anyone to post and share anything; plus, it is way easier to scroll through dozens of reports.

 

And again, to reiterate, websites have taken the discreet out of what should be earned knowledge or information proper one should be prudent in discussing.

 

I love that when I learned to fish I had to explore…websites and the internet in general have taken that away from most people. I think a lot of anglers never explore which is really too bad. And is it a surprise…we live in a world where people expect results immediately…..why work out and diet when you can get liposuction?

 

Myself, I still explore….it’s the best part about the sport (for me).

 

But as far as the Bow goes……there are no secrets. The Bow of the 70s and 80s is gone. Geez, there was less traffic on the Missouri when I was down there in August than on the Bow.

I counted 50+ trailers at Mac one day this year…..enjoy.

 

[Giovanne]

Just to clarify one thing. People say the population has doubled so that must be part of the problem. It hasnt doubled in the last 5 years thats for sure so I think Population has had a minimal affect on the over crowding/poaching problem. Back in the 80's you could fish this river anyday anytime anywhere so I also dont think the mags are the issue either. But since the website started up thet #'s have tripled or more for membership, pics have been posted, fights have started, low holing has becaome a regular occurance, drift boats are now being replaced by jet boats and I have seen it from the begining. Two years ago if you mentioned the words JET BOAT it wouldve started a mutniy, now its commen place and acceptable by all. Im still not down with Jets Boats on the Bow!!! Im with you on this one man, people suck sometimes and they ruined your day. People who arent stupid and or blind can clearly see whats going on, on the other hand people will protect whats theres and for the most part if people want acceptance people will follow! This is were I tend to get into trouble, if somthing is black and someone calls it white I will say no thats black lol. If there are enough people that want to be on the white side it really doesnt matter what shade of black it is, its still white!

 

Don't forget how the # of guides has at least doubled in the past 5 years. One guide even puts a jet boat in with the group and buzzes up and down, hammering the same runs over and over, through the drift boats like it is no big deal.

 

There is a smart way to use a power boat, so most never even know, but you have to drive a bit and start in the morning where the others finish in the evening. Too cheap for the extra truck gas? just lazy? or does not consider others on the river? The wreckless behavior of some makes the others say "if you can't beat them join them"

 

As things change over time they become the norm, sad really.

[Smitty]

Up until a couple years back you could fish anywhere anytime.

 

That's a matter of perception, and I know many many long time Bow fishers who would strongly disagree with that statement.

 

This problemcant be fixed.

 

But complaining about it sure is fun, right? Yet, in future posts you do propose solutions (rod days, limiting guides?) So are you a cynic or an optimist?

 

Im not bitching about anything,

 

Sure about that?

 

Im just not blind to the impact it's had. Its my thoughts and I knew I would get flamed, its how things work! Everyone new and young gets there panties in a bunch, its just how it goes. Im not going to get all uptight and say your a jerk for ripping me, I just dont care.

 

whataniceguy, you seem to think that its some sort of badge of honor to being "flamed". Like you're standing up and defending some time honored principle, like its some sort of heroic act. Actually, 2 things (1) its just your perception (see Dave Jensen reply), and (2) I think you like the attention - if I am wrong then say so - by playing the victim by declaring people are flaming you. Actually, its just that...wait...we disagree. I don't think that qualifies as "flaming"

 

You clearly have not seen the change since the website started up. I have also talked to a few higher ranking memeber on this site, people that have been around for awhile and its always the same conversation. "Man I wish I could go back and start this over" "Geez I feel partially responsible for whats gone around here" etc. so do I. Its always the same content. I believe were Im coming from is correct Ive heard to many people say the exact same thing.

 

Frankly, I think it would simply foolish not to agree with you here. Of course its quite likely this website has contributed to the attention the Bow gets (and some other waters). The disagreement lies in the matter of degree and blame. For some reason, you seem incredibly fixated on this site and assigning a massively disproportionate amount of the blame on FFC. I think it strikes many of us as...silly.

 

You just wont hear it here because no one wants to wreck the good standing and get flamed like me!

 

More of the "hero" syndrome, imho. Don't confuse flame with disagreement. Its perfectly reasonable to have an opinion, whether it "agrees" with "majority" or not, but its also reasonable that all opinions can be challenged, especially those that can be attributed to first person bias and confirmation bias. Stated differently, do you have anything resembling fact that would link the "rise" of the FFC to the crowding and/or lack of etiquette on the Bow?

 

Everybody needs to mellow out and let everyone speak there mind. Like I said before, it doesn't matter who posts what, a fight is sure to start up. Fights start because of ignorant people who just refuse to see it any other way.

 

No one is infringing on your right to speak your mind. You know its funny how people use the word ignorant. Its either use in a general, vague sense to insult other people, or it can be used correctly, as in not having knowledge towards a particular subject matter. Example: "Smitty is completely ignorant of the skills and techniques required for brain surgery. Completely, totally 100% ignorant".

 

So am I ignorant for seeing the issue in a different light? Are you ignorant for assigning so much blame to one single website? Either we're both guilty of ignorance, or neither. Depends if you correlate ignorance to perception, opinion, and bias.

 

The major context of this reply is to say that I disagree with your perception of flaming, I think most people can agree to disagree without the fights and letting it get personal, and if it stays impersonal then no problem, yes?

 

Cheers,

Smitty

[Smitty]

It is much different. In a fly shop there is a certain amount of discreetness when discussing locations. Some waters are never mentioned because they are too delicate or metaphorically ‘sacred’ to be shared en masse. A website allows anyone to post and share anything; plus, it is way easier to scroll through dozens of reports.

 

Good point. Also, the internet is easier for the lazy (like me. ). I think my point was that the info is still available whether or FFC exists or not, but you're right I don't think I can really say they are equivalent.

 

And again, to reiterate, websites have taken the discreet out of what should be earned knowledge or information proper one should be prudent in discussing. I love that when I learned to fish I had to explore…websites and the internet in general have taken that away from most people. I think a lot of anglers never explore which is really too bad. And is it a surprise…we live in a world where people expect results immediately…..why work out and diet when you can get liposuction? Myself, I still explore….it’s the best part about the sport (for me).

 

I think its time to acknowledge that there are some fishers who simply don't feel the same way. Its not like its against the law or immoral to collect some information, do some homework and due diligence before heading out. So is it possible nowadays to find out about spots in 20 minutes that took some gaffers 20 years to find? The answer is yep, sure is. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it going to change? - Are we going to shut down FFC, Flyfish AB, AB Outdoorsmen? Not a chance.

 

What is the solution? At least part of the solution is that with atv access, gps mapping, internet info sharing, it would be very prudent to have pro-active, well funded, science-based (as opposed to politically based) fisheries management practices that recongnizes these 21st century challenges. Like Dave says, we can't turn back the clock. AB will keep attracting people, in-migration will continue to be strong for a good couple of decades, what are we going to do about it? I also think that an angler management program like classified waters will be implemented in my lifetime. Nearly inevitable. See? Now I should have written a letter. Damn hypocrite that I am...

 

BTW and fyi, some of the above was devil's advocate. I am in complete agreement with you in terms of the satisfaction of exploring and also resisting the "liposuction" (great analogy) approach to finding fishing spots. Take the thread where the nice gentleman - Neil - is considering moving to Edmonton. I offered to take him fishing. Think I am going straight to my 30-yr "home" stream containing Athabascan rainbows? Probably not. More like the Little Smoky river, Edmonton's version of the Bow.

 

I jealously guard spots and will not name them under penalty of death. More hypocrisy on my part. Tis the selfish nature of a 25 yr flyfisher clinging to the romantic fantasy of having water to yourself. For some of the waters I fish in the Edson-Robb-Hinton-Grande Cache country, its a fantasy that still comes true often in the summer. Wonder how long it will last...

 

Cheers,

Smitty

 

[SanJuanWorm]

What's wrong with soiling the run for everyone and moving on? Throw giant rocks, scare fish, pick up marbles and head home like a child.

 

It's kinda what i'd do. But I was never the mature type. I can catch fish on any run on the bow.

 

1000's of fisherman on the bow but only few can actually be successful.

[CTownTBoyz]

Good point. Also, the internet is easier for the lazy (like me. ). I think my point was that the info is still available whether or FFC exists or not, but you're right I don't think I can really say they are equivalent.

 

 

 

I think its time to acknowledge that there are some fishers who simply don't feel the same way. Its not like its against the law or immoral to collect some information, do some homework and due diligence before heading out. So is it possible nowadays to find out about spots in 20 minutes that took some gaffers 20 years to find? The answer is yep, sure is. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it going to change? - Are we going to shut down FFC, Flyfish AB, AB Outdoorsmen? Not a chance.

 

What is the solution? At least part of the solution is that with atv access, gps mapping, internet info sharing, it would be very prudent to have pro-active, well funded, science-based (as opposed to politically based) fisheries management practices that recongnizes these 21st century challenges. Like Dave says, we can't turn back the clock. AB will keep attracting people, in-migration will continue to be strong for a good couple of decades, what are we going to do about it? I also think that an angler management program like classified waters will be implemented in my lifetime. Nearly inevitable. See? Now I should have written a letter. Damn hypocrite that I am...

 

BTW and fyi, some of the above was devil's advocate. I am in complete agreement with you in terms of the satisfaction of exploring and also resisting the "liposuction" (great analogy) approach to finding fishing spots. Take the thread where the nice gentleman - Neil - is considering moving to Edmonton. I offered to take him fishing. Think I am going straight to my 30-yr "home" stream containing Athabascan rainbows? Probably not. More like the Little Smoky river, Edmonton's version of the Bow.

 

I jealously guard spots and will not name them under penalty of death. More hypocrisy on my part. Tis the selfish nature of a 25 yr flyfisher clinging to the romantic fantasy of having water to yourself. For some of the waters I fish in the Edson-Robb-Hinton-Grande Cache country, its a fantasy that still comes true often in the summer. Wonder how long it will last...

 

Cheers,

Smitty

 

Agreed.

[fishpro]

Ive met you man, you seem like anice guy and a good flyfisher. But your comment is whats wrong here. I can pick up a mag and read about fishing bones in Florida, Doesnt mean Im going there. This is a local issue. It has nothing to do with people that dont live or fish here, its the daly activity and how huge its gotten since its inception. Yes the Bow is well known but people coming here to fish the river for two days once every three years arent the problem. Not that there is a problem, someone posted a rant about getting poached and I posted my opinion about why there is so much poaching going on these days. Everybody needs to mellow out and let everyone speak there mind. Like I said before, it doesnt matter who posts what, a fight is sure to start up. Fights start because of ignorant people who just refuse to see it any other way.

 

That's what I was interested in. It seemed to me that perhaps people were singling out this site and not considering other potential causes for increased pressure. I wasn't looking to start a fight in any way. Thank you for clarifying.

[Guest Jeremie]

Dont get so uptight guys. Go fishing

[Tungsten]

I say we all carry one of these

 

 

Water Balloon Power Toss launcher

 

back off or get wet.